Is Once Saved Always Saved Biblical?

[Kenny'sID]

I see. It appears that we are in substantial agreement after all. It may be that referring to the sheep that aren't really sheep got in the way.

I'll take that.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Why the nonelect?

Imagine you built a robot. You programmed it to say "Bling is the greatest, Bling is the best!" every 12 minutes.

What would the praise be worth? Nothing, because the robot didn’t choose to say that. By creating such a robot you basically compliment yourself.

Now imagine you carved a nice little figure out of wood and gave it a soul so that it’s a self-contained being with its own will and emotions. This carving might be sad sometimes that it’s lonely, it even might be angry at you at times because you don’t spend all your time with it, but when this little being appreciates you for who you are, when the carving honors you as its Creator – that is real worship, that is actually worth something!

The reason why God created something in the first place is in His honor. We are supposed to glorify God! And for that a free will is essential, it’s absolutely necessary. Free will is the only way to explain the reality we live in: why there is evil in this world, why God is "hidden", why there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden (which led to the Fall), even why we live in a fallen Creation and not in paradise.

At the same time we know of God’s sovereignty, and many people see a contradiction between "we have free will" and "God is sovereign". A contradiction that is actually not there. The two concepts of "free will" and "God’s sovereignty" are in fact complementing one another.

God’s sovereignty protects our free will! Here's why:

God does not force anyone to believe in Him. God reveals Himself to people, He "draws" everyone (John 6:44), but He does not force them to actually allow Him into their life.

Some do not like it, but the devil is the second most powerful being in this universe. God gave him power in this world, and I believe the devil could tempt and deceive us to such an extent that we’re in risk of losing our faith (against our will) – if God did not protect our will! God knows exactly what’s inside our heart. He knows with absolute certainty whether we want or don’t want to follow Jesus Christ. And when God sees that we want to believe in Jesus "he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear" (1 Cor 10:13). Do you see? The devil’s the one tempting us, and God, being sovereign, does not allow him to tempt us more than our (free) will can bear!

But who are "the elect"? If God predetermined who will believe and who will reject Him – where is our free will?

A closer look at Romans 8:29-30 will help us to understand the election. It says there:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined […] and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified".

Do you notice how it does not start with "predestined"? It starts with "foreknew"! God did not create you as someone who will accept Him but He foresaw that you will be one of those who accept Him. God’s omniscience allowed Him to know which human will believe in Jesus before He even created the earth, and those (who he foreknew) are the elect!

Again: God knew which human would choose Him by their free will (without wanting to turn away later, unlike some people I know), and, by His sovereignty, He predestined those to keep their faith to the end. The elect are foreknown, not predetermined.

Lastly allow me to clarify the following: God uses His sovereignty to protect our free will regarding accepting or rejecting God, but this does not mean that He does not influence anything else. God knows very well whether a person wants/would believe in Him, and He uses people accordingly: those who would never decide for God are used in a way that they stay unbelievers (corresponding to their free will) like the pharao (see Exodus 10:20 for example) and those who decided (or will decide) for God will be used to live to God’s glory.

Sanctification is something we cannot achieve by ourselves, just like salvation. It’s beyond our will, and here God’s sovereignty appears again: God will sanctify us and change us into the image of His Son (Romans 8:29). Our free will and God’s sovereignty go hand in hand with each other

 

[Albion]

But who are "the elect"? If God predetermined who will believe and who will reject Him – where is our free will?

It exists in everything other than that decision?

Do you notice how it does not start with "predestined"? It starts with "foreknew"! God did not create you as someone who will accept Him but He foresaw that you will be one of those who accept Him.

The verse doesn't say that, however.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No I was not feeling judged by you - I was making the general observation that those who hold the position that a believer can loose salvation, judge prodigals as such. Their theology does not allow for hope of return to the Father.

That's simply not true. I believe I stated that a believer who went prodigal can in fact repent (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) and be restored back to saving faith or eternal life again.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

It exists in everything other than that decision?

God didn't predetermine who will believe and who will reject Him. He foreknew it.

The verse doesn't say that, however.

"For those God foreknew he also predestined..."
The foreknowledge is first. That's exactly what the verse says.

 

[bling]

Do I understand your question correctly? Are you asking why God never planned that everyone would be saved?

I understand why God knew not everyone would be saved, but why did God have plan (forordain) not to save everyone.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Imagine you built a robot. You programmed it to say "Bling is the greatest, Bling is the best!" every 12 minutes.

What would the praise be worth? Nothing, because the robot didn’t choose to say that. By creating such a robot you basically compliment yourself.

Now imagine you carved a nice little figure out of wood and gave it a soul so that it’s a self-contained being with its own will and emotions. This carving might be sad sometimes that it’s lonely, it even might be angry at you at times because you don’t spend all your time with it, but when this little being appreciates you for who you are, when the carving honors you as its Creator – that is real worship, that is actually worth something!

The reason why God created something in the first place is in His honor. We are supposed to glorify God! And for that a free will is essential, it’s absolutely necessary. Free will is the only way to explain the reality we live in: why there is evil in this world, why God is "hidden", why there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden (which led to the Fall), even why we live in a fallen Creation and not in paradise.

At the same time we know of God’s sovereignty, and many people see a contradiction between "we have free will" and "God is sovereign". A contradiction that is actually not there. The two concepts of "free will" and "God’s sovereignty" are in fact complementing one another.

God’s sovereignty protects our free will! Here's why:

God does not force anyone to believe in Him. God reveals Himself to people, He "draws" everyone (John 6:44), but He does not force them to actually allow Him into their life.

Some do not like it, but the devil is the second most powerful being in this universe. God gave him power in this world, and I believe the devil could tempt and deceive us to such an extent that we’re in risk of losing our faith (against our will) – if God did not protect our will! God knows exactly what’s inside our heart. He knows with absolute certainty whether we want or don’t want to follow Jesus Christ. And when God sees that we want to believe in Jesus "he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear" (1 Cor 10:13). Do you see? The devil’s the one tempting us, and God, being sovereign, does not allow him to tempt us more than our (free) will can bear!

But who are "the elect"? If God predetermined who will believe and who will reject Him – where is our free will?

A closer look at Romans 8:29-30 will help us to understand the election. It says there:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined […] and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified".

Do you notice how it does not start with "predestined"? It starts with "foreknew"! God did not create you as someone who will accept Him but He foresaw that you will be one of those who accept Him. God’s omniscience allowed Him to know which human will believe in Jesus before He even created the earth, and those (who he foreknew) are the elect!

Again: God knew which human would choose Him by their free will (without wanting to turn away later, unlike some people I know), and, by His sovereignty, He predestined those to keep their faith to the end. The elect are foreknown, not predetermined.

Lastly allow me to clarify the following: God uses His sovereignty to protect our free will regarding accepting or rejecting God, but this does not mean that He does not influence anything else. God knows very well whether a person wants/would believe in Him, and He uses people accordingly: those who would never decide for God are used in a way that they stay unbelievers (corresponding to their free will) like the pharao (see Exodus 10:20 for example) and those who decided (or will decide) for God will be used to live to God’s glory.

Sanctification is something we cannot achieve by ourselves, just like salvation. It’s beyond our will, and here God’s sovereignty appears again: God will sanctify us and change us into the image of His Son (Romans 8:29). Our free will and God’s sovereignty go hand in hand with each other

Well said. Also, the beginning part of your post (that was meant to be comedic) was very funny.

I hope your opponent sees the humor in the beggining part you wrote, and not to take it too seriously.

Anyways, may God bless you greatly this fine day.

 

[bling]

His indwelling presence does not allow this to happen in a true believer.

So the believer losses his free will to quench the Spirit?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I understand why God knew not everyone would be saved, but why did God have plan (forordain) not to save everyone.

Because saving everyone would be a violation of our free will, of that which is necessary for us to glorify God. We have to be able to choose or to reject God in order to honor Him, and that people decide against God is a logical consequence of this freedom.

God's plan was to create beings that glorify Him, and that some reject Him (= get lost) is inevitable in this plan.

 

[bling]

Physically alive - spiritually lost.

I am OK with that.

 

[Albion]

God didn't predetermine who will believe and who will reject Him. He foreknew it.

That's what you said, but the verse that was cited doesn't say that. The verse tells us only that he foreknew them. You added all the rest that you are basing your conclusion on.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So the believer losses his free will to quench the Spirit?

No he/she looses the freewill to renounce Jesus.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's simply not true. I believe I stated that a believer who went prodigal can in fact repent (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) and be restored back to saving faith or eternal life again.

I wasn't referring to you - I have seen prodigals ignored by evangelists as if they are now beyond salvation...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wasn't referring to you - I have seen prodigals ignored by evangelists as if they are now beyond salvation...

I have not heard of that one before. For me: In my experience: Most Christians teach you can sin and still be saved on some level. This has been my experience of Christians both online and in person.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wasn't referring to you - I have seen prodigals ignored by evangelists as if they are now beyond salvation...

What denomination are they?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

That's what you said, but the verse that was cited doesn't say that. The verse tells us only that he foreknew them. You added all the rest that you are basing your conclusion on.

Sorry, I don't see how it can be so difficult to combine the foreknowledge of God with the free will that is a necessary component of reality.
What do you think God foreknew?

 

[chad kincham]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation. Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

Paul writes to the church at Corinth to make sure they aren’t reprobates.


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


He warns that some of the church that think they’re in the faith can actually have become reprobates.


The word reprobates is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which becomes important in the verse where Paul himself says he has to subjugate his flesh (the flesh is worldly desires to sin) daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he end up a castaway.


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring itinto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.


The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek.


Paul said he would end up a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.


Paul never taught unconditional eternal security - in fact he taught the opposite.


Paul makes clear that AFTERwe have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 Paul warns above, that having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I bring out the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The word IF makes it a conditional statement.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit.


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


Unconditional eternal security is not in the scriptures.

 

[Albion]

Sorry, I don't see how it can be so difficult to combine the foreknowledge of God with the free will that is a necessary component of reality.
What do you think God foreknew?

The verse makes complete sense if understood to be saying just exactly what it does say--that God knew the person in advance of his birth. It then goes on to say that he predestined/elected him, called him, justified him, and, finally, glorified him. It's an understandable sequence

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

The verse makes complete sense if understood to be saying just exactly what it does say--that God knew the person in advance of his birth. It then goes on to say that he predestined/elected him, called him, justified him, and, finally, glorified him. It's an understandable sequence

God knew everyone before their birth. Elect and non-elect. It makes no sense to mention that in the context of predestination unless God foreknew something that distinguishes the elect from the non-elect.

 

[Albion]

God knew everyone before their birth. Elect and non-elect.

Agreed.

It makes no sense to mention that in the context of predestination unless God foreknew something that distinguishes the elect from the non-elect.

Sure it does.