Is Observing the 7th day Sabbath a Requirement for Salvation?

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

OSAS is once-saved-always-saved
No it doesn't! LOL!

Thanks, Bob. I'll catch on...... hopefully.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Quote from Jerry :
"The jews had to keep the sabbath to keep it holy."

God blessed the 7th day and sanctified it. Man has nothing to do with it being holy. If not one person keeps it, it's still holy. A thousand generations worth.

. The death, burial, and resurrection was a new day and a new sabbath and it was on sunday according to jewish history and you are going to argue to keep the same day before the most important sabbath of history or the future. That is up to you and between you and God. Jerry kelso

I agree He was risen on Sunday. Thats pretty much a given. Christ even kept Sabbath that weekend, as did the gals who had prepared the burial ointments & spices. They showed up at the crack of dawn Sun. morning. I don't imagine it just happened to work out that way. Peace be with you.

 

[Dave-W]

While it is true that Paul does not believe that - nor did James or Peter or any Apostle teach that... yet there was some sort of small faction in the early Christian church that did believe it.

And for good reason. For at least 1500 years the ONLY way a gentile could follow the God of Israel was to be formally made part of Israel. The final step in that formal conversion was circumcision. (still is the last step)

So, for 1500 years since God established His Covenant with Israel on Sinai, things were done a certain way. Now all of a sudden, that changed. And while much of the content of the New Covenant can be pieced together from the Law and Prophets, gentiles coming to faith WITHOUT formal conversion to Judaism is not in there at all. It was NEW REVELATION given to Paul; and it was slow to filter down to the congregations.

 

[Dave-W]

3. Jeremiah 31:31 was given only to the jews and by believing in the Messiah they would receive the new covenant and he would forgive their sins and put his laws into their mind and hearts and no one would have to teach them.
...........
The new covenant for both the jew and the gentile of the church age is not the same as the Mosaic covenant.

These 2 statements are in conflict with each other. If the New Covenant (per Jer 31) is ONLY for Judah and Israel, then gentiles have no covenant at all.

At least that is what is taken from your post. I would disagree. Jer 31 describes the New Covenant to gentiles as well.

 

[Dave-W]

Quote from Jerry :
"The jews had to keep the sabbath to keep it holy."

What do you guys mean by "holy?"

The ten commandments has 2 different listings, one in Exodus and the other in Deuteronomy. The command about the Sabbath is worded differently (by one word) in the 2 lists. In one it says to remember the sabbath and the other says to observe the sabbath.

"Holy" in Hebrew is Kadosh. It means to keep it separate.

 

[BobRyan]

And for good reason. For at least 1500 years the ONLY way a gentile could follow the God of Israel was to be formally made part of Israel. The final step in that formal conversion was circumcision. (still is the last step) .

Notice that in these examples in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 the gentiles are "god fearing men" but are not Jews. Notice also that these are non-Christian Jews welcoming them to the synagogues and they worship together each Sabbath. The only people in the Bible insisting that gentiles are not accepted by God until they are circumcised is a small group of Christian Jews in Jerusalem.

And Paul admits that when he was Saul persecuting the Christians - he was going to the synagogues to find the Christians because that is where they worshiped.

Notice that in Eph 2 and in Galatians 5 - Paul argues that if a gentile is circumcised for religious reasons it is not merely the "last step" rather it is full identification as a Jew. In Eph 2:11 instead of saying "gentile" Paul says "the uncircumcision"

 

[Dave-W]

Notice that in these examples in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 the gentiles are "god fearing men" but are not Jews.

Yes - I am familiar with "God Fearers." They were well known in Jewish circles and are written of quite kindly in Rabbinic literature. They were Jewish proselytes in every sense of the word EXCEPT they were not circumcised. And the Mosaic covenant stated that if someone was not circ'd they were removed from the people; - meaning they were kicked out of the covenant. Not saved.

Since the God Fearers were NOT in the Mosaic covenant, I seriously doubt their salvation.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

"Holy" in Hebrew is Kadosh. It means to keep it separate.

.
Yes, holy does mean seperate; different. That's what the book says. Another bit of proof that all days aren't Sabbaths and Sabbaths are different. That's what I take from it, anyway. Ex. 20:8. I don't reckon I get what you are asking me, if different from that.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Oh, I see the quote you were reasoning from, from Jerry. When he said the folks had to keep it to make it holy. I said God made it distinct whether anyone kept it or not. He sanctified and blessed it ON the first one, AS IT HAPPENED. That was some real news there. Just because people ignore it doesn't change the fact that it is already what God said it was. Make sense? Peace be with you & Happy Sabbath. I don't know if it's me, or God, but Sabbath lately is meaning more to me progressively than it did early on.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

And for good reason. For at least 1500 years the ONLY way a gentile could follow the God of Israel was to be formally made part of Israel. The final step in that formal conversion was circumcision. (still is the last step) . QUOTE FROM DAVE.
There's something in my wife's latter ,I think, words that say something about 3 stages of alien, sojourners, strangers worshipping as a Jew. It was when they first went into Cannan and it was people's who came out of Egypt with them, I think. One level couldn't be in courtyard and got no 7 year debt relief but kept Sabbath and worshipped , and planned NOT to stay indefinitely. Then progressing on to being as close as law allowed, but still didn't have 100% rights, but closer for those who would totally commit. Dave, you probably know more about it than what I wrote, but I can most likely look it up in notes.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,
Where does it say that Sunday was a new Sabbath? Paul didn't have to get onto people about the Sabbath. The Sabbath was kept for a hundred or two years after Christ and the new converts knew it. We all Love God everyday, but that still doesn't make everyday a Sabbath. That would take all the special-ness out of it, like they've pretty much done; and when you were talking about context, it's very much in context. The whole man of sin thing, the Sabbath, changing God's laws, trampling the rest, standing in the temple calling ones self God- it's all Rome, my friend. Peace be with you.

sabbathkeeper&wife,

1. I never said there was a scripture that said the sabbath was sunday.
2. The early church was filled with mostly jews and they met in the synagogues on saturday because they were jews.
The Mosaic law was only for the jews and not the gentiles for the gentiles had no covenant. Paul brings this out in Ephesians 2 and 3 and Hebrews 8.
3. The Mosaic law is the not the New Covenant.
4. The Mosaic law was for the jew under the old testament and it was a part of their culture.
5. The law was to be forever for the jew but not the Mosaic covenant but under the new covenant.
6.This means that the old covenant, which was one whole unit was abolished under its entire context at the cross and replaced by the new covenant of the finished work of Christ.
7. This did not do away with the jew not being a jew.
8.fact that the jew was still considered to be more elevated than the gentile. 9.This took 8-10 years after the early church and the Day of Pentecost began to the time of Peter and the vision of the clean and unclean and Cornelius and his gentile family getting saved and being put into the body of Christ on the same level as the jew.
10. Sabbath was at creation and it was a specific commandment to the jewish nation and not the gentiles for they didn't have a covenant.
In the new covenant we are told to keep the sabbath holy and Paul said not to judge about which day concerning the sabbath and holydays is observed in Colossians 2.
11.For the very fact that it also says in the same context that those things that were contained in the old covenant was a future type shows that it was abolished at the cross for the church age and will be reinstated in the millennial kingdom under the millennial reign of which the jews will be at the head of the nation.
12.The only half way for SDO to make an argument is to say the keeping the sabbath holy as being saturday for the church age is the same as the scriptures of the jews having to keep it on saturday so that means the sabbath of the creation was on a saturday. The only problem is that this is the church age and not creation or the law age and Paul said not to judge any man about which day he observes the sabbath or any holy days of the jews. He also talk about traditions of men later on and uses the same parallel.
13.Forsaking not the assembly of yourselves is not about what day you observe it but observing it for the edification of the body of Christ. Paul relates this in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.
14. Taking the specialness out of the sabbath is not scriptural but taking it out of context of the scripture and its specific purpose for this age is.
15. 2 Thessalonians 2 does talk about the man of sin who will be the Antichrist who will be of the 7th head which is the 10 horns which will be the new revised empire. However, the desecration of the temple has to do with the temple in Israel that belongs to the jews. It has nothing to do with the church age saints for they will be gone. Even, if they are not raptured it still has nothing to do with the church and all to do with Israel.
16. I am sorry, but you need to get the facts straight first and in the proper context.
17. The 2 witnesses have everything to do with the nation of Israel for that is where they will be slaughtered and raptured from. Their job is to get Israel prepared for Jacob's trouble and the coming kingdom. Malachi tells about the real Elijah coming back before the great and dreadful day. Jesus said, truly
18. Elijah shall first come and restore all things. John didn't restore all things in the same manner that Elijah of the last days will for the nation of Israel rejected Jesus message of the KOH and the KOG.
19. The 144,000 are all born jews out of every tribe and they are to be witnesses in the first half of the tribulation and in the middle of the tribulation will be raptured to heaven. Even those who die and are raptured before the Wrath of God in Revelation 15 sing the song of Moses and the lamb which implies they are all jews. The sun clothed woman is Israel and the manchild are jews and the remnant are jews all in Revelation 12 alone.
The church is not seen in Jacob's trouble or even the first half. There will be gentile believers in the tribulation but not of the church age for the church age will have been raptured. Jerrykelso

 

[jerry kelso]

While it is true that Paul does not believe that - nor did James or Peter or any Apostle teach that... yet there was some sort of small faction in the early Christian church that did believe it.

But I do not agree with those folks that clam that Paul was a liar each time he affirms some part of the Bible that they reject.

My line of reasoning is Jer 31:31-33 Word of Christ New Covenant law of God - keeping

Paul goes into a great deal of detail about those who claim to remain at war with the Law of God - Romans 8:4-9



True -- but there is only so many times that we can post agreement on that point - before we move on to the next point.

Speaking of the NEW Covenant - as we see it in Jer 31:31-33


Until you read Hebrews 8:6-10 where once again Jeremiah 31:31-33 is quoted - verbatim and is applied to all Christians.



Not according to the actual Bible - see Romans 3:31 ( <-- click here)



Not according to Jeremiah 31:31-33 - and we both know it.

Exegesis matters.

bobryan,

1. Jeremiah 31 talks about the new covenant and it was only to the jews at that time for the gentiles had no covenant.
It mentions that it will be when Israel repents and God writes his law into their minds and on their hearts.
Now as a nation you know good and well if you are honest that that has never happened and it has to in order for them to take their rightful place at the head of the nations in the KOH. This is why Jesus offered to them in the first place and they rejected because they rejected the spiritual aspect of the KOG in their hearts. God will not make man obey or disobey. Man's obligation is freewill choice and they must cooperate with God.

2. Jeremiah was specifically to the jewish nation and it didn't specify about the death, burial and resurrection. They have to recognize him and they will repent and they he will save them under the new covenant.
In Jesus day they didn't understand the death, burial, and resurrection message of the new covenant. This is why when the nation rejected the KOH and the KOG message Peter said, he wouldn't let anyone kill Jesus and Jesus said get behind me Satan cause you don't savor the things of God which was Satan using Peter as a tool to thwart the plan of redemption which he didn't understand before the cross.

3. The cross has already happened and the jews are still blinded as a nation and Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 has not been fulfilled yet otherwise all the jewish would know God and not have to be taught.

4. Since the new covenant and the church age have been in effect the new covenant is understood though many jews do not believe in it.

5. In the tribulation it will get worse but they will realize they need the Messiah and their will be a false gathering and there will sacrifices and they will be stopped by the Antichrist and in the end the nation of Israel's light will almost be snuffed out and then they will repent and God will give them the new covenant by putting it into their hearts and minds for there is no other covenant or any other name but Jesus whereby they can be saved.
6. Then Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 will be completely fulfilled.
Even the 144,000 will be saved by the new covenant for one cannot go back to the old testament today or in the future.

7. The law of God was before the Mosaic law and during and after.
The law of God of the new covenant is different than the law of God under the Mosaic law etc.

8. The new covenant was built on better promises versus the weaknesses of the old covenant which was holy and good at the same time.

9. Romans 8:2 says the law of sin and death which was in Romans 7 taking advantage of the Mosaic law and made them live to the frailty of man in sin, was done away with by the law of the Spirit which is under the new covenant.

10. At the same time this doesn't mean there is still no war between the flesh and the spirit. We have better promises to be able to overcome them through the finished work of Christ.

11. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are in harmony with each other because they are specific to the jewish nation not the gentiles.
Hebrews is for us gentiles to understand just like the whole bible but in it's proper perspective and it has to reconcile with the other scriptures on the subject to harmonize with the big picture and your view doesn't do that.

12. This doesn't mean that those in the church age do not have the new covenant or that it is not written in their minds and hearts for it is but the context is speaking specifically to the jews. Read it again.
Exegesis matters and you don't have the proper exegesis and understanding scripturally which I have proved by the scripture. Jerrykelso

 

[jerry kelso]

These 2 statements are in conflict with each other. If the New Covenant (per Jer 31) is ONLY for Judah and Israel, then gentiles have no covenant at all.

At least that is what is taken from your post. I would disagree. Jer 31 describes the New Covenant to gentiles as well.

davew-ohev,

1. Your reasoning is not proper context of the scripture.
The church of the jews and gentiles in one body alike was predestined and foreordained from the foundation of the world.
It was also prophesied that the jews would reject him and that he would die for the whole world so your whole premise is wrong.

2. Jeremiah 31 was only spoken and offered to the jewish nation and it was the new covenant and they rejected Christ and could not enter in God's rest and were cursed and not blessed and backslidden in their covenant.
Just because the passage mentions the new covenant and the putting in the hearts and minds when they repent doesn't mean that it was specifically to the gentiles.

3. The jews had to recognize the Messiah and believe in him as a whole nation and they didn't when he came. They didn't understand what the new covenant was for Jesus never preached it even though he prophesied in certain ways that must be understood in the specific covenant. Also, when he said the plainest even his own disciples didn't understand it and Jesus said will you go away like the others and even Peter was being used as a tool of Satan to thwart the plan of God when he said he wasn't going to let anyone kill Christ and Jesus said, get behind me Satan cause you don't savor the things of God which was the redemptive plan.

4. In the tribulation the nation of Israel will accept God and it will be through the new covenant for there is no other covenant to be saved by.
Israel rejected Christ before Calvary and they were cursed and not blessed according to the old covenant of which they were under at the same time.
The new covenant to the gentiles is not specific in these contexts like Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 for they have to repent and then God will give them the new covenant and they won't have to be taught anymore.
One has to understand the immediate and historical context first and how it applies to other scriptures on the subject and the big picture before it can be understood of what it means to another age. If one tries to spiritualize and generalize without understanding the big picture they will miss the true context and this is how we get wrong doctrine. Jerry Kelso

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Hi Jerry, good to hear from you. Oh, where to begin....lol. Ok, the Mosaic law came about 2500 years after the sabbath. And...the law of Moses isn't even on the same plane as the law of God. The "woman", the remnant, Isreal, or whatever name we call the last day believers (that aren't caught up in the pagan based apostacy) are both Jew and "Greek", or gentile. They are they who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. 12:17 & 19:10 respectively. The tribulation will effect them most, which is why Christ has to intervene. When Christ says not one hair will be harmed is eternal as He cares not of the physical realm and deems those accepted to be ready and willing to suffer for His names sake, just like in the last onslaught from Rome. I'm afraid it will come down to the deadly wound being healed that the beast already obtained. There's just too much prophecy come to pass ,even on the specific years, to deny it. I'm even seeing the Sunday keeping churches starting to accept all but the last half week of Daniel's 70 weeks ( which they've NEVER done before) but still getting stuck on the 3 1/2 years being shortened to 5 mos. They're getting there, S L O W L Y. The same principals apply in most prophecy. Think about this, really. This is from the heart. It's not the "my day is better than your day" or anything else. This part is how I actually learned that Christ was who He said He was and all this STUFF is goin down, and maybe quicker than we think. At least the crappy part. What do you attest these to: Daniels 4 beasts, the last one here until Christ comes. We know who they are, basically because he told us. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, then Rome. Then ya have the same beasts in Rev, in inverted order, mainly because Dan. was back there, looking forward. John forward looking back. We know from history the papacy crushed the last rebellion and completely took over Europe in 538. We know Napoleon had his thugs sach Rome, taking all their wealth AND the pope hostage in 1798. The same day/year prophecy used in Dan. lines up on this. The time (one year), times (two years) and the dividing of time (1/2 yr), the 42 mos. and 1260 days all align with Rome running the known world and cruelly killing Christians that opposed her. Millions. When you look at the 7 seals, same thing. All the prophecies are in chronological order. Its the condition of the Christian church from inception through the end. It's also spot on and lines up with history and the present. Apocalypse means to un-cover, like taking a lid off a pot. It's meant for some to get it. Rev 12:17 & 19:10 tell us who gets it and why. What about the woman, who keeps the commandments of God in Revelation? SHE is the answer. There's no difference between Jew or Greek. The Jews blew that part and the 70 weeks was their countdown. God's no respecter of persons. All these things that have turned people away from God's commandments are left over from Rome. The religion itself is pagan, not the people. I know there are MANY God fearing people in RCC and all denominations, but why are Sunday keepers all of a sudden accepting the 70 weeks of Daniel when that wouldve been laughed out of the pulpit, just 5 years ago even? That's Adventist prophecy. It's more truth and more light slowly coming to His people. From what scripture teaches, much more truths will be accepted, but the final and big gap will always be over the Sabbath. We believe, and with sound doctrine, that it's what will keep one from getting God's seal. Look at Isaiah 4. It's chock full of info about men, standing in God's house, looking east and worshipping the sun. That's talking about Rome. Then it talks about some angels and a dude with a writers inkhorn in his hand. That's Jesus. He goes about marking folks in the forehead who cry out against these abominations. The angels kill everyone who doesn't have the mark ( which is the seal of God) AND God says to start in His house first, because these men were responsible for teaching the lies. After I understood these things and how much God warns us about it, I see it talking about it in ALL the books of the prophets and other books too . MUCH. 2 KINGS, PS., IS., JER., EZ., ZEC., DAN. , the gospels, the list goes on and on and when you compile all the texts, it's crystal clear and they all compliment each other. You got some verses that you say warrant not keeping Sabbath, like the one about not letting any MAN judge you in Sabbath days and food n stuff. Did ya ever think about it meaning the opposite? Let no man judge you for keeping the Sabbath. Those dudes kept it. See what I mean? It's all in the angle you come from. There are tons in the new testament saying keep it. I know people get a certain way to do things in their mind and set in their ways, but sometimes they get their ways handed down from other folks. Most of the time, it's how opinions are formed. People say SDAs are a cult. They say Ellen White was no prophet. It's always a cult when it's not mainstream. The Pharisees said the Apostles were too. I honestly have no idea what she thought she was other than a messenger. She was chosen by God , for sure.There are a couple of hints in the Bible that tell us what a prophet had happen, that was odd, to them. A couple, and only those descriptions to a couple of people. Other than that, it's what they brought to the table that made them a prophet - truth. I've read her prophecy, and it aligned with what God showed me and continues to show me. 100%. I've yet to finish her first book, Great Contravercy. I have about 30 pages left. Her prophecy is accurate. Very accurate. Folks want to align her and William Miller strictly with misleading people on the 2nd Advent. She knew him. He figured out the 70 wks in Daniel and unlocked it, she picked up the ball and ran with it, but that's about all they had in common. He wasn't an Adventist. They didn't exist yet. He didn't keep the Sabbath. He missed on Jesus coming back and people, through all the murmuring, assume the SDA church stood out in a field waiting on Jesus. It's just not true. The Advent movement came after. They (about 50, left over from about a quarter million, after the great disappointment) grew into the Adventist Church out of his teaching, then hers as she broke down the rest of the mystery ,using the same techniques and some God given visions. William Miller figured out the prophecies of Daniel, which was unsealed- right on time in 1844 at the end of the 2300 days. All this stuff fits together like a puzzle, and it was meant to. There's a lot of light and truth taught that most other denominations won't even consider , but you have to consider where their beliefs came from and most of it came from Rome. Have you ever read and studied all the prophecies as the Adventists teach? There are SO many and they all fit together in chronological order. It would be hard to genuinely study them with an open mind and come to another conclusion, seriously. You can add scripture and I can counter, as the other way around til we are both dead. You ought to check this stuff out for yourself. In fact, it is my prayer that you do. Peace be with you. And again, good to hear from you. My finger went to sleep

 

[Dave-W]

davew-ohev,

1. Your reasoning is not proper context of the scripture.
The church of the jews and gentiles in one body alike was predestined and foreordained from the foundation of the world.
It was also prophesied that the jews would reject him and that he would die for the whole world so your whole premise is wrong.

I think you misunderstood my post.

 

[jerry kelso]

Hi Jerry, good to hear from you. Oh, where to begin....lol. Ok, the Mosaic law came about 2500 years after the sabbath. And...the law of Moses isn't even on the same plane as the law of God. The "woman", the remnant, Isreal, or whatever name we call the last day believers (that aren't caught up in the pagan based apostacy) are both Jew and "Greek", or gentile. They are they who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. 12:17 & 19:10 respectively. The tribulation will effect them most, which is why Christ has to intervene. When Christ says not one hair will be harmed is eternal as He cares not of the physical realm and deems those accepted to be ready and willing to suffer for His names sake, just like in the last onslaught from Rome. I'm afraid it will come down to the deadly wound being healed that the beast already obtained. There's just too much prophecy come to pass ,even on the specific years, to deny it. I'm even seeing the Sunday keeping churches starting to accept all but the last half week of Daniel's 70 weeks ( which they've NEVER done before) but still getting stuck on the 3 1/2 years being shortened to 5 mos. They're getting there, S L O W L Y. The same principals apply in most prophecy. Think about this, really. This is from the heart. It's not the "my day is better than your day" or anything else. This part is how I actually learned that Christ was who He said He was and all this STUFF is goin down, and maybe quicker than we think. At least the crappy part. What do you attest these to: Daniels 4 beasts, the last one here until Christ comes. We know who they are, basically because he told us. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, then Rome. Then ya have the same beasts in Rev, in inverted order, mainly because Dan. was back there, looking forward. John forward looking back. We know from history the papacy crushed the last rebellion and completely took over Europe in 538. We know Napoleon had his thugs sach Rome, taking all their wealth AND the pope hostage in 1798. The same day/year prophecy used in Dan. lines up on this. The time (one year), times (two years) and the dividing of time (1/2 yr), the 42 mos. and 1260 days all align with Rome running the known world and cruelly killing Christians that opposed her. Millions. When you look at the 7 seals, same thing. All the prophecies are in chronological order. Its the condition of the Christian church from inception through the end. It's also spot on and lines up with history and the present. Apocalypse means to un-cover, like taking a lid off a pot. It's meant for some to get it. Rev 12:17 & 19:10 tell us who gets it and why. What about the woman, who keeps the commandments of God in Revelation? SHE is the answer. There's no difference between Jew or Greek. The Jews blew that part and the 70 weeks was their countdown. God's no respecter of persons. All these things that have turned people away from God's commandments are left over from Rome. The religion itself is pagan, not the people. I know there are MANY God fearing people in RCC and all denominations, but why are Sunday keepers all of a sudden accepting the 70 weeks of Daniel when that wouldve been laughed out of the pulpit, just 5 years ago even? That's Adventist prophecy. It's more truth and more light slowly coming to His people. From what scripture teaches, much more truths will be accepted, but the final and big gap will always be over the Sabbath. We believe, and with sound doctrine, that it's what will keep one from getting God's seal. Look at Isaiah 4. It's chock full of info about men, standing in God's house, looking east and worshipping the sun. That's talking about Rome. Then it talks about some angels and a dude with a writers inkhorn in his hand. That's Jesus. He goes about marking folks in the forehead who cry out against these abominations. The angels kill everyone who doesn't have the mark ( which is the seal of God) AND God says to start in His house first, because these men were responsible for teaching the lies. After I understood these things and how much God warns us about it, I see it talking about it in ALL the books of the prophets and other books too . MUCH. 2 KINGS, PS., IS., JER., EZ., ZEC., DAN. , the gospels, the list goes on and on and when you compile all the texts, it's crystal clear and they all compliment each other. You got some verses that you say warrant not keeping Sabbath, like the one about not letting any MAN judge you in Sabbath days and food n stuff. Did ya ever think about it meaning the opposite? Let no man judge you for keeping the Sabbath. Those dudes kept it. See what I mean? It's all in the angle you come from. There are tons in the new testament saying keep it. I know people get a certain way to do things in their mind and set in their ways, but sometimes they get their ways handed down from other folks. Most of the time, it's how opinions are formed. People say SDAs are a cult. They say Ellen White was no prophet. It's always a cult when it's not mainstream. The Pharisees said the Apostles were too. I honestly have no idea what she thought she was other than a messenger. She was chosen by God , for sure.There are a couple of hints in the Bible that tell us what a prophet had happen, that was odd, to them. A couple, and only those descriptions to a couple of people. Other than that, it's what they brought to the table that made them a prophet - truth. I've read her prophecy, and it aligned with what God showed me and continues to show me. 100%. I've yet to finish her first book, Great Contravercy. I have about 30 pages left. Her prophecy is accurate. Very accurate. Folks want to align her and William Miller strictly with misleading people on the 2nd Advent. She knew him. He figured out the 70 wks in Daniel and unlocked it, she picked up the ball and ran with it, but that's about all they had in common. He wasn't an Adventist. They didn't exist yet. He didn't keep the Sabbath. He missed on Jesus coming back and people, through all the murmuring, assume the SDA church stood out in a field waiting on Jesus. It's just not true. The Advent movement came after. They (about 50, left over from about a quarter million, after the great disappointment) grew into the Adventist Church out of his teaching, then hers as she broke down the rest of the mystery ,using the same techniques and some God given visions. William Miller figured out the prophecies of Daniel, which was unsealed- right on time in 1844 at the end of the 2300 days. All this stuff fits together like a puzzle, and it was meant to. There's a lot of light and truth taught that most other denominations won't even consider , but you have to consider where their beliefs came from and most of it came from Rome. Have you ever read and studied all the prophecies as the Adventists teach? There are SO many and they all fit together in chronological order. It would be hard to genuinely study them with an open mind and come to another conclusion, seriously. You can add scripture and I can counter, as the other way around til we are both dead. You ought to check this stuff out for yourself. In fact, it is my prayer that you do. Peace be with you. And again, good to hear from you. My finger went to sleep

sabbathkeeperand wife,

1. I haven't got time to go through every point.
I have read about the 2300 years and the 2500 years and it nothing new or only to the adventist religion.

2. Revelation is a prophecy to the church today just as much as it was addressed to the 7 churches of Asia back in John's day. It was about the end of times and gives more details of where Daniel left off.

3. You can be right in your own hermeneutics but when you set it side by side of the correct hermeneutics your belief fails. Part of it is because you don't properly understand correct jewish history and that the covenants of Israel have to be fulfilled.

4. The jews kept the sabbath because they were still jews in the early church. At the same time there were many things that Paul didn't keep as a jew except to strive with the jew as much as possible.
He didn't promote physical circumcision for gentiles because it was the spiritual circumcision that was important. He did the purification laws just to strive with the jews but said the gentiles were not under that.

5. He did the sabbath because he was a jews but he didn't tell the gentiles that had to do that in his gentile ministry because what was important was honoring the sabbath on what ever day you celebrated it on and Sunday was a very popular day for christians because it was the day Christ arose. But he still didn't promote sunday sabbath either.

6. The motive is not to forsake the assembly of the church because God gave the church for edification and building up and not trying to be so regimented by law mentality of do's and don'ts.

7. Kids can be subdued by the law and rebel and most do and fall away from God. You think because you legalistically keep the sabbath on saturday you are going to get a star in your crown? No, those who keep the sabbath on any day will be counted as faithful.

8. The law of Moses was the law of God just as much as any other covenant in the bible.

9. We obey commandments of God today but they are the new covenant commandments and in that context. The moral laws were in every age and each covenant but in a different context. You need to learn the difference.

10. Daniel 2 was prophetic to what is now historic and also what is still prophetic to the future. Daniel 7 is more zoned in to the four beasts of what is now history.

11. Babylon was the 1st kingdom in history of the four; Medo-Persian being the second; Greece the third; and Rome being the fourth.

12. Daniel 2 and Revelation 17 are about the historical and future kingdoms.
Historically, Egypt was the first kingdom used of God to chastise Israel, Assyria the second, Babylon, the third, Medo-Persia,the fourth, Greece, the fifth and the 6th was Rome. This is scriptural and historical fact.

13. The 7th kingdom is the ten horns which is the Revised Roman Empire which is future to today although not completely finished. Revelation 12 and 13 both give the pictured of the 7 heads which are mountains, which are kingdoms and the ten horns. In Revelation 12 the seven heads are crowned because they were and are right now concerning the 7th kingdom in Satan's day. In Revelation 13 the 10 horns are crowned because the Antichrist will be given all these heads in Revelation 12 and finalized in Revelation 13 when he gives his seat and authority and power to the Antichrist.

14. Revelation 17 shows that the Antichrist is of the 7th and will be the 8th when he begins his own kingdom with the false prophet.
You are staying in history and misunderstanding the future of the 7th and 8th kingdoms. And you don't seem to understanding about what is going on today and you won't if you stay into history of what has already passed.
John wasn't trying to look back at history in Revelation 12 and this is why the manchild is future and not Christ because he had already seen the life, death and resurrection of Christ to glory. The time factor of Revelation is Revelation 1:19.

15. The woman is jewish from all her markings of the genesis account and the timing of Jacob's trouble etc. You are using an assumption for the woman being the church of jews and gentiles which is not in line with the context of Jacob's trouble with Israel and the restoration of Israel and the consummation of the kingdom with Israel as the head of the nations.

16. I am sorry but William Miller missed it and missed it badly and because he was stuck in historical realms alone the 2300 years is not in the context.
The 1260 days are literal in the first half and the second half of the tribulation.

17. So your counter is only right in your context but not in the biblical context.

18. As far as the sabbath on saturday only is not in context to the new covenant of today.

19. The law of Moses which was the law of God for that period that was holy and good was replaced by the new covenant which is built on better promises.

20. Besides Paul stating that the Mosaic law had weaknesses it was also replace because God wants us to get away from being so legalistic about every little thing and that divides.

21. The principles are still the same of keeping the sabbath in the new covenant in the scripture that says, Forsake not the assembly of yourselves. The church which is the body of Christ was designed for edification according to Paul. Sabbath day only divides and denies the freedom given in the cross and resurrection. This is a denominational belief and if it was a biblical new covenant commandment I would do it.

22. You can keep it on saturday just like the jews but it is not going to put one star in your crown with that motive. The motive for being faithful is what is rewarded concerning this.

23. There are plenty of things that one has to believe and keep that are more important than keeping the sabbath on saturday only. If that is what you believe is fine but it not biblical to keep for new covenant believers and to teach that is just judging about those things that Paul said not to judge one another on.

24. I believe in keeping the sabbath for that is scriptural. But on saturday only is not scriptural for new covenant believers today. And Paul did not say don't let anyone judge you for keeping the sabbath. Also, it wouldn't make sense that he said the sabbath was a type to the future which would be in the kingdom era which hasn't happened yet.

25. It wasn't a jewish type to be fulfilled in the church and Paul never recognized it in that manner either. It was also a parallel to men's traditions of other kinds as well and the motive was not to be petty of such legalism as to get into judging another to cause division.

26. I am all for keeping the sabbath for that is scriptural. What is not scriptural is saturday or sunday only or any other day only concept.

27. If you want to converse about some of the things I didn't get to let me know. I have to go. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

I think you misunderstood my post.

davew-ohev,

1. My point was that the jews were offered the new covenant not the gentiles. Paul said the same thing that the gentiles had no covenant.

2. This doesn't mean that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 would not include gentiles because the jews knew that the gentiles were to be saved. Even under the old covenant the jew was to kind to the stranger at the gate and they proselyted gentiles into judaism and to be saved.

3. However, they didn't understand that the gentiles would be on the same level as they and the middle wall would be broken down until 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost when Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean and Paul preached to the gentiles and recorded these things in the mystery of the church in Ephesians.

4. Sorry for any confusion. At the same time, gentiles have to understand that Israel will still fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom and that the new covenant offered in Jeremiah 31 specifically to jewish nation was not fulfilled to the jewish nation at calvary and neither was Hebrews 8:7-13; otherwise no man would have teach the jew the truth for they will all know in the future kingdom. Jerry Kelso

 

[BobRyan]

davew-ohev,

1. My point was that the jews were offered the new covenant not the gentiles. Paul said the same thing that the gentiles had no covenant.

The Heb 8:6-10 NEW Covenant made for the entire NT saints - is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-33 as we all know.

The reason Paul includes Gentiles in that - is because of Romans 2 and Romans 9.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

This is the same reason he had to clarify circumcision of heart and not physical. Any one who bleeds and lives CAN qualify. Just being a Jew OR a gentile means nought. All Jerusalem will be filled with the holy, AFTER God washes away the filth. It will be that way eveywhere. Folks just choose not to understand that there are certain requirements that have to be met in order to receive the free gift of salvation. Otherwise there would be no contravercy, nor any reason to be like Christ, or subservient to Him. Sin is still sin, which is breaking the law. Recognition of such comes from His commandments. God doesn't put any burden on any one over another. Faith in forgiveness means that since we don't sacrifice animals ,as Christ being the ultimate sacrifice,receiving what we are due, and us receiving what He is due, repentance and obedience is ALL we have to bring to the table. Repentance from SIN, obedience to His commandments. He wants our love. If we love Him, we obey Him. It's fairly simple. Man complicates it. Even the devil's believe. There are many things that have happened in the last two years that set the stage for what's about to happen. The picture will get much clearer for anyone who WANTS to understand . Those who think they are above following God's law will be blinded, as most are now, and will never see it coming. That is self righteousness. Folks accuse SDA of us thinking we earn crowns and get to heaven by works and obeying the law. That's just not true. If seldom the righteous make it, what chance have we? And by the way, William Miller wasn't SDA or a Sabbath keeper. He just broke the code of Daniel. He opened the door for the Advent movement, a discovery of hidden truths. This was the sealed book of Daniel, unsealed at the right time, followed by discovery of MANY errors started by Rome. That was only the Reformation continued, as Martin Luther and many others started around 1500. As far as I know, crown earning only comes from martyrdom from keeping biblical truth and NOT falling prey to the futuristic prophetic Jesuit lies that have enveloped protestant churches since the turn of the last century, where before, ALL knew what they were protesting about. Not some, not half, ALL. Now none do. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Is the church of Laodicea in the future, or was it done 2000 years ago too? Careful and steady counter reformation work has been taking place. They don't hide it at all. You can Google any of it you want and read it from THEIR doctrine, not ours. The only way to win a battle is to KNOW your enemy, his plans and where he is at ANY given time. We now, as of this year, have a new pope, new black pope and a UN leader. All Jes. . We have laws in place about speaking out basic Bible fundamentals, labeling of those that do as haters, anti-bully laws in schools so the lbgt kids can do as they please, with zero reprimand, which means they will never get a chance to learn truth. Those were put in place to SILENCE Christians, not to aid them. They could care less about human rights. If you don't believe that, then ask yourself why we don't help the very poor countries with massive human right violations? It's because they have no resources to exploit. Even advice in schools from another Christian peer is seen as hate. Evil will be labeled as good, which it has. Then good..... evil, which is happening before your very eyes. They want you to accept MANY ways. The gate is narrow and few make it. The stage is just about set. The IN that they will first use for a Sunday law is for "environmental relief". To give they earth a break. They already push for it and it's called about constantly in the UN. Do you think all this stuff is just happening by chance or accident? NONE of it is. The 1260 days is the same period of time it was a hundred years ago. It's not future folks. Consider the source of the lies. It's directly from the seat of the beast. Folks say "The Lord will tell us when this all comes". Wrong: He will tell those who are obedient. And He has! There is just too much biblical information to ignore. Mix that with history (real history, because the newer books are actually being re-written- like the new Bibles) and current events. KNOW who the enemy is or he comes upon you unaware. Christ warns and warns and warns about it. It's like a horse or a little kid that gets scared or doesn't want to mind. They close their eyes. That doesn't make the problem go away. I once believed as many others did. I WAS WRONG. I lived as many others. WRONG AGAIN. I misunderstood John 3:16. Like I said, even devils believe. I never could understand why lots of Revelations was a mystery (but I thought I understood parts of it-)- until it wasn't. SDAs didn't do that for me. William Miller didnt. No name or any building didnt. The Spirit of Prophecy-the testimony of Jesus Christ, which came to me AFTER I started keeping the commandments of God. It was no accident or fluke. It's the way He designed it. Hes not going to reveal mysteries like that to people who constantly defend anti-christ doctrine and values. Why should he? There are more than enough people who know truth to do the work, IF they will. Then it becomes their duty to tell anyone that will hear. Most wont, unless they too repent and start keeping his commandments. The 3 angels messages sum it all up. It's as simple as that. Peace be with you.

 

[belovedgeliebt]

I think the main misunderstanding here is what is the Mosaic law? Is it the ten commandments or another law? This is where a sincere study should begin.

EDIT: Or, should I say, was it the entire Mosaic law only for the Israelites or was only part of it? According to one website, it is divided up into three parts: moral, ceremonial, and social.