I believe I have created my post in the wrong place. I would prefer it being in the SDA forum
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Is Observing the 7th day Sabbath a Requirement for Salvation?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
bobs,
1. It is sad to think that people get wrapped up into wrong exegesis and because of lack of knowledge of gradual revelation and of what the cross brought and ended.
2. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 talks about reaping and sowing according to the purpose of the heart, not grudgingly or of NECESSITY.
SDA make the sabbath only on saturdays is couched under the idea of obeying the commandments when there motive is really out of necessity because they have to in order to be saved or to be blessed such as reaping and sowing.
3. Under the Mosaic law was a necessity to obey the commandments because they were under the blessing and cursing system under the Mosaic covenant. The church is not under this system and the 10 commandments were abolished at calvary 2 Corinthians 3:1-16.
4. They will use God creating and taking the sabbath. That was under the law of Moses of which gentiles were never under to begin with.
Paul said, let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday or of the new moon or of the sabbath day. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore, if ye be dead with Christ froim the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:16-23l; Galatians 4:3,9. Men's doctrines have to do with doing by fleshly means and Christ is into being who we are in Christ to do commandments of his truth and Godly means and not fleshly means.5. No matter how well meaning a SDA may be it is a false teaching that is fleshly and hidden behind obedience to God when it is really out of necessity and which is contrary to new testament doctrine.
I am glad you exposed the truth about Ellen White for many don't know and don't understand. Keep posting and God bless! Jerry Kelso
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Keeping the Sabbath holy and honouring God is not a "necessity" or a burden no more than certain rituals I have with my wife that exhibit our love for each other.... this is the true iteration of keeping the day holy that He Sanctified and made Holy at creation. It can not be rescinded any more than the creation ordinance of marriage.
If you wouldn't mind, could you post some scriptural evidence that shows the seventh day Sabbath, a pillar of creation, was done away with or changed to sunday. Otherwise you are talking against what the Bible clearly teaches on this.... not an enviable position to be in imo.
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Bob S... have you ever considered that the keeping of the Sabbath day wasn't an issue and therefore not mentioned is because it was understood that the disciples would gather in the synagogues or homes to teach the people the Sabbath commandment... on the Sabbath.
Of course, there are the numerous texts to consider that speak about Jesus, our example in all things, honouring the Sabbath... even in death He honoured the rest and rose the day after teaching us that the Sabbath IS post cross. There is nothing in the scriptures that honestly refutes the Sabbath Command. You will admit that the other nine are still in effect, as they are written.
I am sorry that you never experienced the blessings that are received in surrendering to God and communing with Him on His Holy day. Sabbath was made for man, not the Jews only, because of the blessings it entails for all those that love the Lord. " If you love me, keep my Commandments"... He uttered those Commandments at creation,He etched them in stone with His own finger and He lived them during His perfect life... does that sounds like something that could changed without incontrovertible scriptural proof that is was changed?
Also consider this... if the Commandments could be "abolished" or changed in anyway, why did Christ have to come and die? Just change the Commandments to what the people could easily keep... I mean, it's not like the Decalogue represents God's character, right? That would mean that God's character can change just like those Commandments.
Of course, there are the numerous texts to consider that speak about Jesus, our example in all things, honouring the Sabbath... even in death He honoured the rest and rose the day after teaching us that the Sabbath IS post cross. There is nothing in the scriptures that honestly refutes the Sabbath Command. You will admit that the other nine are still in effect, as they are written.
I am sorry that you never experienced the blessings that are received in surrendering to God and communing with Him on His Holy day. Sabbath was made for man, not the Jews only, because of the blessings it entails for all those that love the Lord. " If you love me, keep my Commandments"... He uttered those Commandments at creation,He etched them in stone with His own finger and He lived them during His perfect life... does that sounds like something that could changed without incontrovertible scriptural proof that is was changed?
Also consider this... if the Commandments could be "abolished" or changed in anyway, why did Christ have to come and die? Just change the Commandments to what the people could easily keep... I mean, it's not like the Decalogue represents God's character, right? That would mean that God's character can change just like those Commandments.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
eastcoastremnant,
1. I was saying what the sda's view it as a necessity because they believe you have to do it because of the commandment as the Mosaic ethic says. Those that do them shall live by them. Romans 10:5. I do not believe saturday or sunday or just one particular day of the week is sabbath only.
2. I never said the sabbath was changed to sunday. Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath and every day is a sabbath. There is nowhere that it says sabbath was changed to sunday even though from history they started keeping sunday as the Lord's day. But those that go on sunday don't hold sunday as the only day to be a sabbath.
I gave the scripture where Paul said not to judge another man about sabbath days. The judaizers in the early church were always trying to get the gentiles to succumb to jewish traditions. Peter said why put a yoke on the gentiles that even our fathers could not bear.
3. The sabbath in the old covenant for the jews was forever. Exodus 31:13-18. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever. Deuteronomy 5:15; And remember that thou was a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
4. What makes you think creation's sabbath was on saturday? Some believe it is because Israel's is on Saturday because of Exodus 20:11; For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. It is speculation and assumption for this belief because it doesn't say specifically. Either way gentiles were never under the mosaic law.
It was also a shadow and a type of the rest in Christ and in eternity (Hebrews 4:1-11; 10:1; Colossians 2:14-17). Since it has a typical meaning it is only natural that it cease to be a part of the new covenant, which brings the reality of what it typified (Colossians 2:14-17; Hebrews 4:1-11). Jerry kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
eastcoastremnant,
1. Do you know anything about what is meant by the mosaic law was abolished? Colossians 2:14; Blotting out the HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TPO US, AND TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS. The handwriting of ordinances was the Mosaic law.
2. The Mosaic law was abolished and it's glory done away with and that is why Moses put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read the veil is upon their her. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord the veil shall be taken away.
3. Galatians 4:24-31 gives an allegory about the two covenants from mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. The law is the bondwoman and her son and shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman which is grace. We are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Law and grace are similar because of the moral aspect and at the same time at polar opposites in the type of ethic and the judgement it produces which is of wrath and not of faith. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
4. The old covenant was the best God gave the jews but it had weaknesses and that is why the new covenant took its place for it was built on better promises. Hebrews 8:6-7. Jerry Kelso
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I know quite a bit about the mosaic law that was abolished but nothing about God's moral law, the Commandments, being abolished.
Let's see... the Decalogue was stored inside the ark whereas the mosaic law was kept on the outside. The Decalogue was written by God's own finger on permanent stone, whereas the mosaic law was written by a man on perishable parchment.
How do you read this passage?
Matt 5 16-19
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Here, Jesus is teaching us that the good works we do out of the abundance of the heart, from love, glorify the Father. This would include the keeping of the Sabbath that was commanded at creation, what was understood before Sinai and what was done by Jesus himself to glorify His Father.
To my knowledge, the heavens and the earth are still in existence so I don't see how the Law could be done away with.
Why would Jesus say this do you suppose... maybe the same reason He thought to put the word REMEMBER in front of the fourth Commandment. Because He knew that Satan would cause the Sabbath Command to be done away with.
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Again, I will state that the Decalogue was not part of the mosaic ethic... do you view any of the other nine parts of the Commandments as "necessary"? Is obedience to God and what He has taught us necessary? You can't cherry pick what is required of us... either all or nothing.
I don't think God is subservient to what you or I believe or don't...
What makes you think it wasn't... why would God state one thing in Genesis and then use the same language in Exodus but not mean the same thing... God is not the author of confusion which is what you are implying.
I many of the worlds languages, the name for what we call Saturday is Sabbath. Don't forget that the different languages began over a millennia before Sinai so those people had a knowledge passed down to them from Noah's descendants. The same as the clean and unclean food laws that people think is only for the Jews but was observed during the flood... but I digress. Here's a link http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resources/article-library/id/912/which-day-of-the-week
See above...
What about the mixed multitude that constituted the wanderers in the wilderness? Are you suggesting that it was only the descendants of Abraham that were to keep the Law? Doesn't Exodus say that "all the people" agreed to obey the Decalogue? Were these Egyptians and others not considered 'gentiles'?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
eastcoastremnant,
1. The law was a whole unit and the 10 commandments were a summary that God gave Moses on Sinai.
There were 630 laws to keep in the law of Moses plus 1000 and more statutes and commandments.
The Mosaic law was not the same given to their father who were the patriarchs and it came because of transgressions until the seed should come. Galatians 3:19. Hebrews 8 attests to the fact that the new covenant was built on better promises and replaced the old covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7.
2. The decalogue in the ark was the 10 commandments and more because it contained the sacrificial, civil and moral laws. They were also types and shadows for the ark as well as the tabernacle as a whole. They were known as the table of law, the golden pot of manna, and Aaron's rod budded. Tables of Law-Father God; Golden pot of Manna- Jesus Christ; Aaron's Rod Budded-Holy Spirit.
The Moral law was written on tables of stone. The law was given orally to Israel 3 times. Exodus 19-20; Deuteronomy 4-5 and Hebrews 12:18-20. Exodus 31:18 and Exodus 32:16 was written later by the finger of God on 2 tables of stone.
Israel broke these laws with the golden calf (Exodus 32:19).Exodus 34:1-4 were written a second time on stone and placed in the ark the second time (Deuteronomy 10:1-5). They were placed beneath the Mercy Seat.
The civil law amplified and enforced the moral law and applied to specific situations and was written in a book and placed at the side of the ark (Deuteronomy 31:24-26).
The ceremonial law was the manifestation of God's grace. It had to do with the regulations of the priestly work, sacrifices, the sanctuary, the feasts and the Sabbath. (Exodus 25-40) and the book of Leviticus.
3. The sabbath was a ceremonial law and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God took the ceremonial law and nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14 The blood of bulls and goats could not wash away sins. Hebrews 9:9-10.
4. The civil law was done away according to the Mosaic ethic because Timothy 1:9-10, says that law is for the disobedient, unlawful murderers, etc. As christians we are not to be subdued the law because it is to be who we are in Christ of why we don't transgress the law. If all one does is subdue their kids under a commandment they rebel because it is not really who they are. Also, the law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to sin which was the frailty of man. Read Romans 7. This was a life under the mosaic law and Romans 8:2 says the Spirit of life has done away with the law of sin and death that took advantage of the Mosaic law. Moses law could not save you, it could only say thou shalt not. It took the power of an endless life of Jesus Christ to do that.
5. The moral law in itself was in every age and is in this age as well. However, according to the Mosaic ethic it was done away with because it had the judgement attached to it which was the curse. If you committed adultery or your child sassed their parents the punishment stoning was the punishment.
James said, if you transgressed one law you have transgressed it all. The law of Moses was one unit and it was taken out of the way to be replaced by the new covenant. Hebrews 8:7-13.
6. Jesus teachings of the KoH and the KoG message to the jews only (Matthew 10:6-7) were under the Mosaic law era of which he taught and lived. Galatians 4:4; Luke 2:21-24; Matthew 3:15; John 1:31-33; Luke 3:23; Matthew 5:17-18, etc.
7. The disciples knew nothing of the death, burial, and resurrection in our context. After the jewish nation rejected him Jesus started telling them about his death and resurrection and they didn't get it. Read John 6 about eating his flesh and drinking his blood and Matthew 16 about satan using peter as a tool to thwart the plan of God and how peter didn't understand about Jesus dying for their sins on the cross. The jews were backslidden under the law covenant and only knew to believe in Jesus for forgiveness of sins which was seeking the KoG and his righteousness so they would be blessed for they were under a blessing and cursing system.
8. Jesus had to fulfill the whole law in order to be the spotless lamb to take away the sins of the whole world which John the Baptist foretold. His baptism, teachings and everything in his ministry was to fulfill the Mosaic law. This is why he came not to destroy but to fulfill.
Matthew 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Till heaven and earth pass is a colloquial meaning, the law of Moses passing would not pass anymore that heaven and earth would pass for they are forever. Till all be fulfilled is referring to the Messianic ministry of Christ which would be satisfied by Christ and the time expired would be at Calvary where it would be abolished by the new covenant with better promises. Hebrews 8:6-7.
Heaven and earth passing in this context cannot be literal because it will never happen literally in the sense of annihilation. There will be a new heaven and a new earth pass away but this is a renovation by fire which doesn't annihilate but purifies. Peter explained this in his epistle 2 Peter 3:12-13.
The law for Israel was forever but could only be in the form of the new covenant and the shedding of Christ blood. Jeremiah 31:31-32 says that he would make a new covenant not like the one on Sinai, not on tablets of stone but in their hearts and minds. This has not happened for the nation of Israel yet but it will in the future tribulation that leads to the beginning of the everlasting kingdom. After the new heaven and the new earth the law of the new covenant will still be the law.
9. Scripture never says that satan did away with the sabbath or any other law of commandment of Moses ethic. Jerry Kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
eastcoastremnant,
Read my post above first because it shows how the old covenant of Moses was done away with and why it's time had expired and been fulfilled, etc. Then if you want to dialogue about the decalogue being different more in detail then we can. Jerry kelso
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Read it Jerry... I responded with there is a difference between the mosaic and the divine.
I don't think you are reading mine though because you are not responding to what I have stated.
Let's start with one question at a time... why, if the Commandments could be changed, which John says the breaking of are sin, did Jesus have to come and die?
I don't think you are reading mine though because you are not responding to what I have stated.
Let's start with one question at a time... why, if the Commandments could be changed, which John says the breaking of are sin, did Jesus have to come and die?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
eastcoastremnant,
1. That was what I though because there are many who believe there is a difference in the law of God and the law of Moses and this is not true.
2. I did touch on the creational sabbath but you missed it.
3. Genesis 2:2-3; And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4. Exodus 20:8-11; remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5. 2 Corinthians 3:3; Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Verse 7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: verse 13-16: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
6. The decalogue was the 10 commandments of which was in the ark of the covenant. It was called the Law of God and the Law of Moses too. Exodus 20 was in connection and demanded under the Mosaic law. Even if creation's sabbath was on saturday it was only attached to the Mosaic law. This is why the mandatory Mosaic law of specific blessings and cursing system was done away with. Even at that the reason for the sabbath given to Israel was a memorial of the day they were delivered from Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15). It was typical of the rest in Christ to come and it could be broken and has been broken many times without the committing of moral sin.
7. The creation sabbath is nowhere in the new covenant as mandatory for one specific day. Give one scripture that says the seventh day or the old jewish sabbath is mandatory for new covenant christians or that the 10 commandments were not abolished at the cross or those who keep sunday or any other day as a sabbath have the mark of the beast or that new covenant christians have to refrain from working on saturday. Show a scripture where God commanded the sabbath from the time of creation to Exodus 16 at which God commanded men to keep a certain day. Show a scripture that says that any other day cannot be as holy as saturday.
8. You have the wrong understanding about breaking commandments and do not understand context. I have already shown that Paul in Colossians 2:16-22 that we are not obligated to the creation sabbath of just one day for every day is a sabbath because it is not connected to the new covenant. It was to the old covenant which was the law of God for Israel but the reason it was included in the decalogue which was the ten commandments given to Israel only in their specific covenant that was abolished at Calvary stems from the deliverance of the Red Sea.
9. The sabbath day was to be abolished for it had become an abhorrence to God. Hosea 2:11 Isaiah 1:10-15.
10. We are under obligation to the commandments in the new covenant and the sabbath is not just one day that has to be observed under the new covenant.
11. You are trying to use an overall answer without understanding context of gradual revelation and what is contained in the new covenant versus the old covenant and hiding it behind the creation sabbath which you use to connect to the law of Moses and yet separate it as the law of God which you believe is separate. This is improper hermeneutics and out of context.
12. I already showed that the sabbath was under the ceremonial law and we know they were abolished. Do you deny this? I already showed that it is not a moral law and can be transgressed without violating moral law.
Do you deny this?
13. Jesus came to die for the transgressions of the first testament Hebrews 9:15. Hebrews 9:9-10 shows the service not perfect pertaining to the conscience, which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. The mandatory saturday sabbath was a carnal ordinance. It was done away with by the death of the cross. Christ died to do away with self effort of trying to do the commandment. SDA's are into works of mandatory self effort mindset cloaked as doing the commandments no matter how well meaning they may be.
14. What do you think you gain in keeping specifically the saturday is sabbath over one who believes that sunday or any other day is a sabbath? Jerry kelso
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obeying the commandments of God are the sign of true conversion - however it is also true that "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin".
Which means that many Catholics who pray to images to bow before them and serve them - that is serve the angels and saints whom they represent are also saved saints so long as they do so without knowing what the Bible teaches. Same with breaking the Sabbath. Once someone is convicted by the Holy Spirit that some violation of God's Law is sin - they are held accountable for the light that they have.
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New Covenant Jer 31:31-33 "I will write MY LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Heb 8:6-10 the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers included God's TEN Commandments.
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
3. Genesis 2:2-3; And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 20:8-11; remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ex 16 "tomorrow IS the Sabbath"
5. 2 Corinthians 3:3; Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Verse 7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: verse 13-16: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
In 2Cor 3 - the point is made that the moral law of God that defines sin - the Ten Commandments - merely external -- not written on the heart and mind as in the New Covenant - can only condemn. Same law -- different location.
6. The decalogue was the 10 commandments of which was in the ark of the covenant. It was called the Law of God and the Law of Moses too. Exodus 20 was in connection and demanded under the Mosaic law. Creation's Sabbath was on Saturday and is for all mankind "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
"The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27
Even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship freely admits that the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is for all mankind - still to this very day.
Even at that the reason for the Sabbath given to Israel as the New Covenant is for "Israel" in Heb 8 and Jer 31 - did not "change" between Ex 20 and (Deuteronomy 5:15). Notice that Ex 20 starts with "I am the God that delivered you from Egypt" -- and so "have no other God's before ME" and "Do take God's name in vain".
7. The creation Sabbath is quoted in part a number of places in the New Testament - by contrast nowhere in the new covenant or new testament do we find "do not take the name of the Lord Thy God in vain". -- Which means "nothing" since there is no Bible doctrine of the form "whatever is not constantly repeated can be deleted".
Rather "There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4 -- remains from the time of David - still existing today and also for all eternity in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
And of course Acts 13 Sabbath after Sabbath gospel worship services.
Acts 17 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel worship services.
Acts 18 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel worship services.
Not one single example of such a sequence in all of the NT for "week-day-one".
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that unit of law that is still binding on the saints.
Quetion: What unit of LAW has the 5th Commandment as the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in it?
The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.
Question: What ARE quote as examples of the Commandments of God in Matt 19 and Rom 7 and Romans 13 and James 2? Answer: always it includes the TEN commandments.
Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Gen 6 and 7 describe a distinction observed between clean and unclean animals - with no details at all given until Lev 11 because Moses' readers had all 5 books. The reader o Genesis 6 also had Lev 11.
God said in Ex 20:11 that the Gen 2:1-3 facts "alone" made Sabbath observance binding on mankind.
A Bible detail so obvious that pro-sunday scholars get this point including D.L. Moody and many others.
Mark 7:6-13 man made traditions set in place of God's commandments - a practice/tradition condemned by Christ "sola scriptura" in Mark 7.
8. Many today have the wrong understanding about breaking commandments and do not understand context. I have already shown that Paul in Colossians 2:16-22 condemns the same act of "making stuff up" outside the Bible that Christ condemns in Mark 7:6-13.
Thus "all mankind" still obliged to keep the the creation Sabbath as God says in Is 66:23.. and as we see in Rev 14:7 'Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water".
9. The Sabbath day was never to be abolished. In Hosea 2:11 Isaiah 1:10-15 worship to God in general is condemned if it is done by those in rebellion against God. God is not the enemy of His own word - but rather God is opposed to rebellion and even in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4 -- and "I write these things to you that you SIN NOT" 1 John 2:1.
10. We are under obligation to the commandments in the new covenant and Heb 8:6-10 says Christ gave those New Covenant commandments - and LAW at Sinai. These are the commandments of Christ - according to Hebrews 8 and it is the same Law known to Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33 in his statement on the NEW Covenant. A Statement that Heb 8 affirms as STILL valid for the saints even then!
11. You are trying to use an overall answer without understanding context of gradual revelation and what is contained in the new covenant versus the old covenant. The old Covenant has the same LAW - the same moral law that defines what sin is - the same law quoted by Paul in Romans 7 that defines what sin is. The fact that more is revealed over time about the Christ - does not delete scripture -- it affirms it.
Thinking that the cross deletes scripture is improper hermeneutics and out of context.
12. I already showed that the sabbath was given before the ceremonial law - in Gen 2:1-3 as God affirms in Ex 20:11 and as even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit.
No one denies that the ceremonial law and animal sacrifices ended at the cross - but we deny that scripture ended then,, that the Word of God was ended or that the God of the Bible ended. Thus his statement in Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" - remains.
His statement about all eternity and the new Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 remains.
Bible details so obvious that the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and "Baptist Confession of Faith" admit to these basics.
13. Jesus came to die for the transgressions of mankind - "taketh away the sins of the world" - pays our 'certificate of DEBT" - this is the debt owed under the "obey and live" first testament Hebrews 9:15, all sinners condemned as sinners by the still valid law of God Romans 3, Gal 3.
Hmmm "in vain do they worship me teaching..." what?? Mark 7:6-13
A question everyone must answer for themselves.
in Christ,
Bob
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
bobryan,
1. Jeremiah 31-33; they were already under the old covenant written on tables of stone. After the days of the appointed time which was to at Calvary, I will put the law in their hearts and write it in their hearts.
2. they rejected him as the Messiah and now the appointed time will be after the days of the tribulation for the new covenant has already been established.
3. Hebrews 8:6-13 says the same basic thing as Jeremiah the new had to replace the old for the new was built on better promises.
4. After the days of the tribulation Israel will come back to God and he will put his laws into their mind etc. and their sins he will remember no more.
5. The ten commandments of Moses law in 2 Corinthians 3:7; But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away. Hebrews 8:13 is talking about this glory passing away.
6. This doesn't mean we don't have moral law but we obey them as a new creation of who we are in
Christ on better promises because of greater access to God. This doesn't make us any better or greater than old testament saint because we still have a freewill and are at war with the enemy called Satan.
As a christian we do not obey the moral law looking up to a commandment or to be subdued. This is why many are so tired of mere legalism of bible thumpers because all it does is condemns and drives them further away. There is a thin line between the law and grace and at the same time a whole world apart. The spiritual aspect makes it closer and the inability to keep from sinning, the condemnation and the focus on self effort are the risks. Satan has many tricks up his sleeve whether for the old testament saints or new.
The letter kills because it had a curse of judgement to it.
7. Romans 7 shows how that the law that was holy and good couldn't save the person or help them to perform the commandment. Because they were Spirit filled 24-7 they would have the hit and miss effect and that is why the law of sin and death would take advantage of the law that was holy and good and live to the frailty of man which was sin. Romans 8:2; the Spirit did away with the law of sin and death in Romans 7 by the law of the Spirit.
8. If one tries to merely subdue a person by the law more times that not they will rebel. Christians have to go from the letter to the Spirit. It is not the Spirit of the law as it is the Spirit himself which is the new law and not a new law from the old letter.
9. Also when people try to fuse law and grace together they cause the struggle of sin. In this context, they are at opposite polars because the twain shall never meet.
10. The letter kills and yet the Spirit gives life; the old has condemnation, the new has righteousness; the old was abolished by death and the new was given life by death; the old was not of faith and yet the new full of faith; the old's glory faded away and the new's excelled greater. The old was a ministration of death and could not be looked upon and yet the new was open face and can be looked up. One had a mandatory law with punishment and not mercy and the new has mercy through grace and the intercessor of Jesus Christ in Heaven. The old could not save you, the new can save you, etc. I think you can get the gist.
11, There has always been law and grace but they must have to be understood in the true light of God's context.
12, Cain killed Abel and there was no written law for murder but he knew people had a conscience of which was their revelation according to Romans 2. This is why he asked God for a mark of protection. Under the old testament law they would have been killed and stoned for adultery and a child sassing their parents etc.
This would be repeated in the old law later and the children of Israel were in a theocracy with God.
The law had a specific blessing and cursing system and specific judgements. Today we are not under that law or otherwise you would have to suffer the same judgements as they did.
13, Now I am sure that one would want to claim that the curse has been lifted and it has but the problem is that a person runs the risk of living under the mentality of the law because Satan makes sure that spirit is still there. This is why a christian is said to be under the spirit of the law because they end up meshing old and new together in the wrong way. How many times have christians said I feel so condemned when I sin and keep doing the same thing over and over again etc. What happened to there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus? If the gospels are read the wrong way they can teach a saved person the struggle in their daily lives and having to rededicate their lives over and over from being in a backslidden condition all the time.
14, Are their still commandments in the new covenant? Sure. The bible says to abstain from all appearance of evil. Paul exhorts all the time but not in the spirit of fear unless it is something that needs to addressed with greater intensity. There is no arguments in not keeping the commandments of God.
15, The jews culture and life were wrapped up in they types and shadows before the cross. Today if they live in them as such and try to merit salvation through these concepts they are wrong and still blinded.
Peter said the law was a yoke of bondage that they or their fathers could not bear and so they just told the disciples as long as the didn't commit fornication, or sacrilege to idols etc they would be fine.
16, Romans 3:31; Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. To be honest on both side there are some commandments that are more obvious that would not be commanded to do today otherwise Peter wouldn't have said it was a yoke of bondage that he or his father's could not do. There are also no brainers like love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul.
The law was one whole unit with its regulations, judgements and how the weaknesses made them respond and in what way. The scripture says that the law itself couldn't prevent the promise of the new covenant coming to pass.
17. Not making the void of law could not be done with in particular commandments itself such as love the Lord you God with all your heart,mind, and soul. This was to be who we are in Christ in that day but they had the law of sin and death and self effort to deal with in a greater way because the commandment could not help them perform that commandment. Our better promise to be able to perform this is Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
18, The law was abolished is a scriptural fact but it needs to be looked in the light of what is now in the new covenant and what is not. It is not about mandatory with a specific curse. We will have to do it if it is really who we are and it shows the mark of being a true christian.
19. The whole essence of law is not made void and yet the law is higher even with better promises and greater access to God.
20. The apostles didn't keep the law such as circumcision which was the sign of law keeping and it was abolished it. Even those who keep the jewish sabbath do not practice this.
21. Just because there are similar laws in the new that were in the old doesnt' make it still the old.
When a will is made it is what is. It can be changed and have similar thing, different things and similar things in a different context that makes if different than in the old covenant. It is still considered a new will.
Mark 2:27; the sabbath made for man not man for the sabbath, therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
'
22. The accusation was from the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? It was unlawful but exception made to those who were hungered because the sabbath was made for man.
23.Jesus didn't say they did anything wrong upon the basis of the sabbath was created for man and he was the Lord of the Sabbath which denotes a change and authority of a person instead of a mere commandment. He goes on to have the man with the withered hand stand up and asked the question; it is lawful t do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? o save life, or to kill?. But they held their peace. They held their peace and Jesus looked around with anger being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, and said unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out; and his hand was restored whole as the other. The pharisees left and gathered with the herodians to see how they could destroy him.
24, If it was really wrong then Jesus sinned against the law and could not be the spotless lamb. If it was just the pharisee teachings of men then Jesus was in the right. Since the sabbath was made for man the Lord would be the same because he came to seek, save that which was lost as well as heal the sick, cast out demons and spread the gospel. This is why Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath in the old covenant of law and he is even more in the new covenant where any day can be a sabbath because of the finished work of Christ where is has broken down the wall of separation between jew and gentile.
There are weekly sabbaths and other as parts of ordinances perainting to feast etc. The feasts are eternal to the jews do you keep all them feasts according and all the other sabbaths. Or do you just keep one sabbath every week.
25. Galatians 4:21 shows the allegory between the two covenants concerning law and grace.
Ephesian 2:15, Colossians 2:14-17; The handwriting of ordinances was laws and commandments. Paul goes on to say Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days,
Maybe you ought to show us what you do on the sabbath and what makes it right being on that day and no other day. Jerry kelso
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Deut 6:6 - it was already "fact" -- the LAW of God written in the heart. So also in Ps 119.
New birth - new creation - John 3 - long BEFORE the cross.
Gal 1:6-9 Gal 3:7 ONE Gospel in all of time -- and that Gospel "preached to Abraham"
Sadly conflicted statements in that list
Romans 7 "The LAW IS holy just and good" not merely "WAS".
James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the Law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.
Self conflicted statements - where the truth forces its way to the surface all the while the claim is made that God's LAW has been abolished.
Patching those self-conflicted statements together as you have does not answer the objection raised to your speculations - it affirms those objections.
More self-conflicted statements.
Totally false - the Apostles were all Jews and were all circumcised. And as Acts 21 points out they affirmed the OT text long after the cross including the LAW of God
Far better to "stick with the actual Bible" -
New Covenant Jer 31:31-33 "I will write MY LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Heb 8:6-10 the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers included God's TEN Commandments.
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
3. Genesis 2:2-3; And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 20:8-11; remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ex 16 "tomorrow IS the Sabbath"
6. The decalogue was the 10 commandments of which was in the ark of the covenant. It was called the Law of God and the Law of Moses too. Exodus 20 was in connection and demanded under the Mosaic law. Creation's Sabbath was on Saturday and is for all mankind "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
"The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27
Rather "There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4 -- remains from the time of David - still existing today and also for all eternity in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
And of course Acts 13 Sabbath after Sabbath gospel worship services.
Acts 17 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel worship services.
Acts 18 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel worship services.
Not one single example of such a sequence in all of the NT for "week-day-one".
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that unit of law that is still binding on the saints.
Quetion: What unit of LAW has the 5th Commandment as the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in it?
The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.
Question: What ARE quoted as examples of the Commandments of God in Matt 19 and Rom 7 and Romans 13 and James 2? Answer: always it includes the TEN commandments.
Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
As both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" And the "Westminster Confession of Faith" admit - none of this means that law-keeping is its own gospel or is some alternate way of obtaining salvation - apart from Christ - apart from the Gospel.
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife
1Corinthians 13:2 - agape
Hebrews 4:3-11 tells me that if Jesus had spoken of another day, he would have said so. Then the Rev. 14:12, already covered here, but 12:17 tells me that the remnant will be persecuted because of the Sabbath. It's what separates the remnant from the non-remnant anyway. That and prophecy- 19:10. It all fits like a glove and it seems MOST Christians work pretty hard to dispute it. That alone would make me question Sunday, Rome, doctrines of men and all the paganism that has polluted the church. That and entire chapters and books of the bible warning against it. I think the remnant isn't an organization at this point. Apostacy has done the same thing in the sda churches in the last few years. There's no more protest in the protestant churches. Luther would flip at what his church is doing next year. The paperwork is finished. 500 years and millions killed in vain. Everyone can't be right.
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Indeed.
Shabbat is supposed to be a DELIGHT. Not something to dread.
In Leviticus 23, God outlines His times and seasons, starting with the Sabbath. He used the word "moed" which is often rendered "feast" in English, but actually means "appointed time." God has all those days and weeks on HIS schedule. (Google Calendar, DayTimer?) He will be there. But will we show up?
And they are not supposed to be dour drudgery; but rather a time of celebrating, filled with JOY.
In the NASB, it says "celebrate" 3 times in that chapter.
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