The more faith in works, is the more faith in self, and the less faith in Christ.
I didn't get that, will you please rephrase?
It sounds to me like you are confusing justification with ongoing sanctification.
If someone completely disobeys the command to work out their salvation then that would demonstrate they were never truly saved in the first place.
Whether we are still babes in Christ or mature in Christ we still have been saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Be careful that you don’t fall into the trap of “type 2 works salvation.”
Preaching the necessity of works to either "produce" or "maintain" salvation is indeed heresy. Man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
Indeed, and you can absolutely obey someone without actually having respect or submission towards that person, but simply because doing the command is more convenient than facing the consequences of disobeying. Jesus did acknowledge, and even applaud, the Pharisees' strict adherence to the letters of the law, but condemns them for neglecting what really matters, i.e. justice, mercy and faithfulness (Matthew 23:23). The latter things are abstract concepts that can't be articulated with written regulation, and is impossible to draw out from one's life unless they are already in Christ. Nowhere did I mention or imply that worship refers to playing music and singing songs.
It seems that many people are againts the quote for its implied endorsement for License/Antinomianism ... but I really don't think it's the case, especially since the second sentence elaborates that "it" (obedience) is a fruit of salvation, not the cause of it.
Anyway, we both acknowledge that "faith" and "works" are both essential, and inseparable, parts of the Salvation package. We just disagree on how we read that particular anonymous comment about salvation. You think it speaks against the need for Christians to obey the Bible, I don't think it does.
Indeed, and you can absolutely obey someone without actually having respect or submission towards that person, but simply because doing the command is more convenient than facing the consequences of disobeying. Jesus did acknowledge, and even applaud, the Pharisees' strict adherence to the letters of the law, but condemns them for neglecting what really matters, i.e. justice, mercy and faithfulness (Matthew 23:23). The latter things are abstract concepts that can't be articulated with written regulation, and is impossible to draw out from one's life unless they are already in Christ. Nowhere did I mention or imply that worship refers to playing music and singing songs.
It seems that many people are againts the quote for its implied endorsement for License/Antinomianism ... but I really don't think it's the case, especially since the second sentence elaborates that "it" (obedience) is a fruit of salvation, not the cause of it.
Anyway, we both acknowledge that "faith" and "works" are both essential, and inseparable, parts of the Salvation package. We just disagree on how we read that particular anonymous comment about salvation. You think it speaks against the need for Christians to obey the Bible, I don't think it does.
Do you think a Christian is capable of going though life without performing a single good deed?
In this section of the forums we are not allowed to discuss Sinless Perfection at length or to promote it without what appears to be: Gaining points, warnings, and or eventual banning.
What I can say is:
I am a Christian who believes in the Bible alone for my salvation. So I believe churches like the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthdox are unbiblical because they add extra biblical traditions like praying to the dead (like praying to Mary and the saints), and they bow down and or kiss statues (Among many other problems). So while I am strongly against Catholicism, I do agree generally (not in detail) with the use of their terms that the Bible teaches that there are mortal sins and non-mortal sins. Mortal sin (from a biblical perspective and not a Catholic one) is any sin that leads to spiritual death unless one confesses to Jesus, and forsakes such sins. Non-mortal sins (from a biblical perspective and not a Catholic one) are minor faults of character that will not necessarily condemn a person. Granted, again the Catholic church is not biblical (in my view), so not everything they say is mortal sin vs. non-mortal is correct. For I believe the Catholic church adds “man made” traditions to what the Bible says.
Anyways, Jesus gives us an example of mortal sin vs. non-mortal sin in Matthew 5:22 (that many Christians today either don't see or they refuse to accept). Lets read it.
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (NASB).
The words in blue above are referring to non-mortal sins because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is in reference to a mortal sin because it is in reference to punishment in the after life in fiery hell. Granted, while I am King James Bible fan and it is my final word of authority, in this instance, the NASB translation helps to better clarify what is being said in the King James Bible (KJB). I use the terms “mortal sin” vs. “non-mortal sin” (even though it originates from Catholics) because otherwise it is difficult for other people to see what I am talking about. Terms I created for these (that is more biblical) is “grievous sin vs. errors of hidden faults,” (See: Genesis 18:20-23 and Psalms 19:12) or the sin unto death, vs. the sin not unto death (See: 1 John 5:16-17).
Actually, the work a Christian does is the Lord working in them (Philippians 2:13, John 15:5). Any good work done is the Lord working through the believer. So all praise, and glory are given unto the Lord and not ourselves. Titus 2:14 talks about how Christ gave Himself for us (on the cross) so as to redeem us from all niquity and that we might be zealous of good works.
Please, just tell me what you're getting at?
Do you believe that a Christian is still saved if they abide in the sin of lusting after a woman, or lying, or stealing, etc? If so, then this is teaching that one can treat God's grace as a license for immorality and a person can do all kinds of unimaginable evils thinking they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus.
You said: "They teach the very dangerous, works are not necessary, when in fact:
James 2. God has chosen the poor of this world who are rich in faith—Salvation is gained by keeping the whole law—Faith without works is dead.
So, on that day of reckoning, when we stand to be judged, many will show up with their dead faith, and dead faith is no faith at all."
Faith without works is dead. But it's extremely difficult for a Christian to go though life without works. In other words virtually everyone ends up doing some good deeds during their life. So it's next to impossible to be without works.
Then you are saying as long as we do a few works along the way, we're fine and we need not be consistent?
Or that we should not concern ourselves with consciously bothering with works because they will happen automatically?
Does James address quantity and consistency?
The works that count are the ones that take place by God working through us.
I asked you a question, and that only evades it.
Does James or anyone else in the bible say that?
You asked me what I was saying. I didn't write anything that's in the Bible, but James did. So as far as the quantity and consistentity of works goes, what did James say about that?
Philippians 2:13, John 15:5, Titus 2:14
OK, if you'd rather not answer, fine, but I'm sure you know what that does for your argument.
Always a bad sign when they start skipping questions.
Firstly, I agree with Bible Highlighter re: "Stay the course" and I know you will, with or without encouragement.
One comment: It struck me when reading your post that I would not even give agreement to the part of the quote shown above. The works pendulum has been swung so far off center/truth, that these simple "memes" as you noted them, should not even be partially accepted anymore if we are to strive for truth and accuracy to be rid of the nonsense. They are stated in an underlying context that is not correct.
1. Salvation is God's plan and work. We could never have devised it, nor could we have put it into effect. Nor could we have qualified to take our Lord's place on the cross.
2. God is working to draw us to Christ by teaching us per John 6. Apart from his drawing and teaching we would not come to Christ - we would not believe in Him - in who He is - and we would not receive the gift of life only He gives.
So, what have we done so far? Nothing. And what could we do to overcome our fallen condition? Nothing.
3. Jesus Christ commands unbelievers to "work" to receive the gift He gives that remains for eternal life per John 6. So, we've been commanded by Christ to work to receive the gift of eternal life. No preacher standing on a stage trying to make us feel stupid for thinking we work to receive a gift has any standing against what Christ commands. In context, this "work" commanded by Jesus Christ is to listen to God and learn what He's teaching about His Son and Salvation and to believe what He teaches.
3a. God commands belief in the name of His Son per 1 John 3. No preacher telling us that obedience is a "work" has any standing against what God commands. The simple fact is that Faith and Obedience to God are so vitally interconnected that there really is no Faith apart obeying God.
4. When Paul writes in Eph 2 that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works, in context, could we make ourselves alive from the dead, could we make ourselves alive together with Christ, raise ourselves together with Him, seat ourselves with Him in the Heavens, could we make God show us the exceeding riches of His grace in Christ Jesus, could we have devised and implemented God's Plan to do such things!? The answer is, No! And this is why Paul says this is apart from our works. This is all God's plan and God's work. Only He can transition us from death to life and place us into Christ Jesus. Only God can grant us to His Son and into His Salvation plan and process. And only people can negate the fact that Jesus Christ commands unbelievers to work to receive this gift. God does His part that only He can do and God commands us to do what He requires us to do - to listen, learn and believe what He teaches - to obey Him in doing so.
5. The same Paul in Philippians 2 commands believers to "work to accomplish" our "salvation" with fear and trembling while God is energizing us to both will and do for His good pleasure. Salvation is a process - a process that we are commanded by God to collaboratively work with Him to accomplish. And Paul very clearly writes that we don't work for our salvation, and we do work for our salvation. It's up to us to understand him in context.
To say "We don't work for our Salvation, but rather from it" is misleading. We do work to receive our salvation: God is working to draw unbelievers to His Son and into His Salvation Plan and process by teaching about His Son and Salvation - Only God can do this > We do whatever work it takes as commanded to listen and learn from God the Father as He is working to draw us to and believe in His Son and into His Salvation Plan and process > God grants us to His Son and makes us alive together with His Son, raises us together with Him, seats us together with Him - only God can do this and He owes us nothing for our work in listening to Him and obeying Him by believing in His Son > We work with God as commanded to accomplish our Salvation.
We should no longer accept these half truths as they are stated in an underlying context that will condemn the Truth as some misplaced notion of "works salvation." It's man that has swung the pendulum to an extreme. Thankfully the Word of God corrects us.
The garbage from the group that claims we do not understand or acknowledge God's Grace is profoundly wrong and a horrendous accusation. I understand God's grace in doing what only He can do. I understand His grace in providing what I need to obey Him in doing what He commands me to do. I understand His grace in guiding, leading, energizing and enabling me in the salvation process as He trains me in "godliness" as He forms Christ in me and conforms me into the likeness of His first-born Son - my first-born brother and Lord Jesus Christ.
The false gospel you consistently speak against is a tragedy widely misleading people from the Truth of Biblical Faith and Salvation. It's proponents have obviously found your posts.
Mike, thank you! God bless you.That is very harsh. She speaks the truth and means well. It may be uncomfortable to hear only if one thinks what is proposed is impossible and unreasonable and we are not used to hearing the truth preached
"Then you are saying as long as we do a few works along the way, we're fine and we need not be consistent?"
No, I'm not saying that, or making that judgement on that one way or another. I'm going by what the Bible says about quantity and consistency of works needed to obtain salvation. So tell me, what does the Bible say about that?
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