Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[Angelquill]

LORD!! Put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth!!

aww, Faith...you know you matter to me!!
And so does LLoJ...
You guys make me feel sooo loved...

 

[Stephen Kendall]

That gets a HUGE AMEN!!!!!

Thank you. May our Father in Heaven lift you up and hold you, comfort you always through Jesus our Lord I pray.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Please, stop the irrelevant diversions. Jesus said that the wicked shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. It isn't rocket science. It's easy to grasp the words. The wicked go into everlasting punishment. Do you believe that?

Everlasting punishment should be thought of as just death without life or parole. If capital punishment is given today, it is this way. If God gives everlasting life to followers and then everlasting punishment liken to death, would he alter his verdict and give everlasting good life and everlasting bad life instead, that is a bit of what we have here. The way things are here are to be permanently changed. Everything will be new. Permanent life and permanent death.

 

[Der Alte]

Everlasting punishment should be thought of as just death without life or parole. If capital punishment is given today, it is this way. If God gives everlasting life to followers and then everlasting punishment liken to death, would he alter his verdict and give everlasting good life and everlasting bad life instead, that is a bit of what we have here. The way things are here are to be permanently changed. Everything will be new. Permanent life and permanent death.

At the time of Jesus the Saduccees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died, young, old, good, bad, no exception and no punishment involved. Since the didn't believe in the resurrection death was already everlasting. So when jesus taught about "everlsting punishment" it would have meant something other than death,.

 

[Angelquill]

The Bible says that the wages of sin was death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
Now, I have to wonder...why would God give you a gift of something that you already have? If you already have eternal life, and the question is where you will spend it, then the gift is not eternal life...

Let's put it in terms that most of us can understand.
Let's say you have a kid who is going off to college. You give him a nice car...you're a good parent. He moves in with his room mate, pays his share of the bills, and buys what he needs, and then he discovers that the only free parking lot near their apartment is a dangerous place. There is a nice parking garage, but they charge by the year, and your kid doesn't have enough money left to pay the fee. You want to help him.
Do you
a. give him the gift of a nice car
b. pay the fee so that he can park in the garage

Think about your answer...


OTOH, suppose your kid doesn't have a car at all...

 

[Rick Otto]

Okay...let's look at the words you highlighted.

You (MC) may accurately present what your(MC's) church teaches all you(MC) like, that's your(MC's) business...and my attitude is going to be "so what"?

I have nothing whatsoever against the Catholic church...well, except for some of your(Catholic church's) history. I would do anything to avoid giving you(Catholic church) back the authority that you(Catholic church) once had. You(Catholic church) would only abuse it again, as you(MC) have proven.

Now, individual Catholics are quite a different story. In fact one of my best friends teaches Catholic school up in Pennsylvania. She is a great lady. We don't always agree, but she is okay with that, and so am I.

Not all of you(Catholics) think that your(Catholics') church tradition is the end all and be all of everyone else's faith.

Oh, and one of the things that I admire so much about her is that her heart is also very much in her faith. She is a very kind and caring lady, who goes out of her way for others at every opportunity. She is everything a Christian ought to be, without being obnoxious about it. We could all, Catholic or not, learn from her.

Yes, I agree with Faith Alone about a few things, one of which is Catholic bullying. I will not submit to it, either. I know you(MC) don't like that, and I'm sorry. That's just the way it is.

Nothing against you(MC) personally...I just don't like bullies. I'm "speaking up"...

And...good morning. I do hope you(MC) have a pleasant day.

Fevvinsakes...all this cuz I said that you'd do better convincing non-Catholics from the Scriptures, and not from your (the Catholic church's) tradition. Those toes are awfully sensitive, I guess...

Since I'm a person, I take things personally.
I actually had someone say, "Don't take it so personally." After telling them my girlfriend just broke up with me.
I think instead of not taking something personally, we may need to be the kind of person who takes things differently in some way, but still personally. My friend should have told me to take it less hard, and offered me some sympathy.
Anyway, it occurs to me that we could be more personable. You know, mitigate our criticisms with positive comments...
"I like how you end your sentences with periods."
Start with baby steps, lol.

 

[Angelquill]

At the time of Jesus the Saduccees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died, young, old, good, bad, no exception and no punishment involved. Since the didn't believe in the resurrection death was already everlasting. So when jesus taught about "everlsting punishment" it would have meant something other than death,.

What does what the Sadducees believed have to do with anything? You do know that they were in error, right?

 

[Angelquill]

Since I'm a person, I take things personally.
I actually had someone say, "Don't take it so personally." After telling them my girlfriend just broke up with me.
I think instead of not taking something personally, we may need to be the kind of person who takes things differently in some way, but still personally. My friend should have told me to take it less hard, and offered me some sympathy.
Anyway, it occurs to me that we could be more personable. You know, mitigate our criticisms with positive comments...
"I like how you end your sentences with periods."
Start with baby steps, lol.

Okay...
I will not submit to Catholic bullying.
But I like those pretty dresses their nuns get to wear.

Is that better, Rick?

 

[Der Alte]

At the time of Jesus the Saduccees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died, young, old, good, bad, no exception and no punishment involved. Since they didn't believe in the resurrection death [to them] was already everlasting. So when Jesus taught about "everlasting punishment" it would have meant something other than death [to the Sadduccees.].

What does what the Sadducees believed have to do with anything? You do know that they were in error, right?

I thought I explained that very clearly in my post which you quoted. Jesus knew what the Sadduccees believed about death.

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible says that the wages of sin was death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
Now, I have to wonder...why would God give you a gift of something that you already have? If you already have eternal life, and the question is where you will spend it, then the gift is not eternal life...

There are three Greek words translated life, Zoe, Bios, and Psuche. Only Zoe is referred to as "Aionios," eternal or everlasting. There are at least three passages in the Bible which depict the dead in Sheol or Hades, experiencing some kind of conscious awareness, moving, speaking, having feelings, etc. Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:21-23, 31-32, Luke 16:19-31.

Let's put it in terms that most of us can understand.
Let's say you have a kid who is going off to college. You give him a nice car...you're a good parent. He moves in with his room mate, pays his share of the bills, and buys what he needs, and then he discovers that the only free parking lot near their apartment is a dangerous place. There is a nice parking garage, but they charge by the year, and your kid doesn't have enough money left to pay the fee. You want to help him.
Do you
a. give him the gift of a nice car
b. pay the fee so that he can park in the garage

Think about your answer...

OTOH, suppose your kid doesn't have a car at all...

The problem with these kind of analogies is that virtually anyone can conjure up an analogy to make scripture appear to support their assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[shturt678s]

Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?
Ok folks, let's stick to the topic.​

Should not believing in eternal torment in hellfire be considered a heresy and/or an unorthodox doctrine?

I would like some from CF staff to also address this specicif topic. Thank you.

[LLoJ...disappointed this got move to the UA board]



.

Heresy = falsifying the Word in the essentials of the faith effected through repentance.

As the Creeds are secondary, so is falsifying the Word of God in the non-essentials of the faith effected through repentance. Thus Falsifying the Word, ie, "eternal torment in hellfire" is secondary and not heresy.

Only an opinion from the rear sinner's row in Church,

Old Jack

 

[he-man]

Heresy = falsifying the Word in the essentials of the faith effected through repentance.

As the Creeds are secondary, so is falsifying the Word of God in the non-essentials of the faith effected through repentance. Thus Falsifying the Word, ie, "eternal torment in hellfire" is secondary and not heresy.

Only an opinion from the rear sinner's row in Church,

Old Jack

Secondary? Only if you do not want a mark of whiteness!
In Ezekiel’s vision, the Lord has his angels separate the demographic wheat from the chaff by going through Jerusalem, the capital city of ancient Israel, and inscribing a mark of whiteness, a tav, upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.”

In Ezekiel's vision, then, the Lord is counting tav-marked Israelites as a whiteness to spare, but counts the people [Tares and Chaff] worthy of annihilation who lack the tav and the critical attitude of whiteness, it signifies. In other words, looking askance at a culture marked by dire moral decline is a kind of shibboleth for loyalty and zeal for God
EX 12:7, 12; Re 3:15,16
ut - tav - תּו
al-mitschot “ על-מצחות About a whiteness
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[shturt678s]

Secondary? Only if you do not want a mark of whiteness!
In Ezekiel’s vision, the Lord has his angels separate the demographic wheat from the chaff by going through Jerusalem, the capital city of ancient Israel, and inscribing a mark of whiteness, a tav, upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.”

In Ezekiel's vision, then, the Lord is counting tav-marked Israelites as a whiteness to spare, but counts the people [Tares and Chaff] worthy of annihilation who lack the tav and the critical attitude of whiteness, it signifies. In other words, looking askance at a culture marked by dire moral decline is a kind of shibboleth for loyalty and zeal for God
EX 12:7, 12; Re 3:15,16
ut - tav - תּו
al-mitschot “ על-מצחות About a whiteness
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Hey, long time no see...good to hear your voice again. If I recall had more to do with a "Cross" marked on their foreheads being a counterpart of Rev.7:3. Ezek.9 All to do with the essentials of the faith as to whether one is in the Kingdom of God or not by a valid faith effected through a valid repentance...

Old Jack's opinion

BTW I have no doubts regarding the secondary's of the faith being foever and ever tormented in hell as a punishment from God for those that helped distress the Kingdom of God.

 

[seeingeyes]

Okay...
I will not submit to Catholic bullying.
But I like those pretty dresses their nuns get to wear.

Is that better, Rick?

MoreCoffee is not a bully. He is a valued contributor to CF (GT in particular), and has been for a long time.

I say that even though I am not not now, never have been and never will be Catholic, and also despite the fact that I disagree with his stance in this particular thread.

 

[Angelquill]

MoreCoffee is not a bully. He is a valued contributor to CF (GT in particular), and has been for a long time.

I say that even though I am not not now, never have been and never will be Catholic, and also despite the fact that I disagree with his stance in this particular thread.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

My offense was that I told the catholics in the thread who were going on about how their church had the authority to make the final decision as to what is or is not heresy that if they wished to persuade non-catholics, they'd do better using the scriptures.

This produced temper in Biblical proportions! I wasn't quite ready for the reaction I got, nor very sure how to handle it.

After the short time I've been here, I gotta tell you...tenure doesn't really impress me. All that tells me is...hmm...same ol' people have been here having the same ol' arguments for years and years...do I REALLY want any part of this????????

 

[Angelquill]

Same tired old arguments from the same tired old people...and it's pretty obvious that no one is going to think it through...

 

[Timothew]

Same tired old arguments from the same tired old people...and it's pretty obvious that no one is going to think it through...

I think it would be good if we would try to examine all that the Bible has to say about this topic. We don't just want to rely on one or two verses from the Book of Revelation, and maybe a parable or two and then assume that we know all there is to know about this subject. I also don't think that we should dismiss this as irrelevant to Christians or that it is only a minor doctrine.

I'm saddened that this was moved to UDD because I really want to hear the opinions of those who hold what is called the orthodox view.

 

[Angelquill]

I think it would be good if we would try to examine all that the Bible has to say about this topic. We don't just want to rely on one or two verses from the Book of Revelation, and maybe a parable or two and then assume that we know all there is to know about this subject. I also don't think that we should dismiss this as irrelevant to Christians or that it is only a minor doctrine.

I'm saddened that this was moved to UDD because I really want to hear the opinions of those who hold what is called the orthodox view.

I agree.
The only ones left now are those who think as we do...

Hardly a debate that way, huh....

 

[seeingeyes]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

My offense was that I told the catholics in the thread who were going on about how their church had the authority to make the final decision as to what is or is not heresy that if they wished to persuade non-catholics, they'd do better using the scriptures.

This produced temper in Biblical proportions! I wasn't quite ready for the reaction I got, nor very sure how to handle it.

After the short time I've been here, I gotta tell you...tenure doesn't really impress me. All that tells me is...hmm...same ol' people have been here having the same ol' arguments for years and years...do I REALLY want any part of this????????

I have no idea if you want to be part of this. But if you do, I would suggest not claiming that individuals (like MoreCoffee) who have been productive and respectful members of this site for years "bullies".

Our reactions say more about ourselves than they do about others.

 

[By Faith Alone]

I have no idea if you want to be part of this. But if you do, I would suggest not claiming that individuals (like MoreCoffee) who have been productive and respectful members of this site for years "bullies".
Our reactions say more about ourselves than they do about others.

I have seen more than one bully on this site and tenure is not a litmus test.