Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[MoreCoffee]

So let me get this straight, when someone studies Scripture and comes to an understanding of them on a particular subject and someone else's interpretation is different from mine, they're ideas are heresy.

Read the posts in this thread and you'll see numerous statements that those who do believe in eternal punishment are ignorant, lazy, dupes who accept tradition, can't be bothered to read their bibles, and are too stupid to understand it when they read it. That's worse that calling an error in theology a heresy. Post #379 is one more example of condemning those who disagree with annihilationism.

 

[tturt]

I've read the posts - maybe not every one of them but most. To me, it's worse to say someone else's ideas are heresy. It's not just on this thread. Folks with a different point of view are labeled ignorant, lazy, dupes, etc. unfortunately, that happens often here.

 

[Angelquill]

I've read the posts - maybe not every one of them but most. To me, it's worse to say someone else's ideas are heresy. It's not just on this thread. Folks with a different point of view are labeled ignorant, lazy, dupes, etc. unfortunately, that happens often here.

I am constantly amazed in these threads to see how Christians treat one another when they do not agree.
I think of Mahatma Ghandhi, who liked our Christ, but not our Christians, because, he said, our Christians are so unlike our Christ.
And it saddens me to think that great man got close enough to know that Christ is someone to be admired...but then the behavior of the Christians he knew pushed him away.
How much blood is on our hands? How will we ever explain our bad behavior to our Father?
Come on, kids, just because you don't agree with someone is no reason to get nasty...we're supposed to love one another as our Lord loves us...remember?
And all men should know His disciples by their love.
How many disciples does He have in these forums?
I'm truly beginning to wonder...

 

[Jonathan95]

Next we look at what is meant by "destroy" in Matt 10:28

Does it mean "destroy as in preserve alive forever?"

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Destroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.

However, I'm sure you cannot find more verses that seem to support annihilationism (from your POV) than those that speak against, in the Gospels or the whole NT for that matter.

Thus, this verse has to be read in the light of everything else the Bible has to say about the state of the wicked after death. Otherwise you will make the Bible seem to contradict itself.

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Well, do you think our souls will be reduced to ashes? Our souls do not cease to exist when we die physically.

How can they be "undergoing" (verb) punishment, if they're annihilated? If that's their punishment, how can they undergo this? How is annihilation fair in the light of this?:

"And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47 NKJV)

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

The Bible talks more about what will happen when Jesus comes, and it doesn't talk about people being annihilated. On the other, hand it talks about the resurrection of the body among other things, and in order for that to be possible, they need to be in existence in the first place.

Ps 37
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

[/QUOTE]

"For yet a little while" - Do you believe the wicked are annihilated while they're still alive here on earth?

"the wicked shall not be" - Shall not be, on earth, yes, it could fit with the context. Not "shall not be in existence". The wicked do not cease to exist after death, otherwise they couldn't be resurrected in the body, unless you mean they're somewhere else/in another state of being until that, but then you need to prove that Biblically.

Numbers 16:21
“Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them instantly.”

2 Kings 1:10
Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

Why do you bring these verses up? They talk about being consumed in the sense of dying physically, not ceasing to exist. Their soul still remains. Otherwise how could Jesus raise people from the dead?

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Read it in light of the book of Revelation, where it talks about torment for the false prophet etc. If it means annihilation here, then that wouldn't be possible.

In more detail what happens that time is that they surround the camp of the saints - are judged and then cast into the lake of Fire - that is the fire that consumes them.

Where does it say that it's that fire which consumes them? Even if it does say that, it's not consumes as in annihilating. They've already experienced physical death before, and been in a state of spiritual death, so they remain in this state of spiritual death.

God can torment resurrected bodies of the wicked in hell, without annihilating them. It's not subject to physical death there.

 

[Angelquill]

Destroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.

However, I'm sure you cannot find more verses that seem to support annihilationism (from your POV) than those that speak against, in the Gospels or the whole NT for that matter.

Thus, this verse has to be read in the light of everything else the Bible has to say about the state of the wicked after death. Otherwise you will make the Bible seem to contradict itself.



Well, do you think our souls will be reduced to ashes? Our souls do not cease to exist when we die physically.

How can they be "undergoing" (verb) punishment, if they're annihilated? If that's their punishment, how can they undergo this? How is annihilation fair in the light of this?:

"And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47 NKJV)




The Bible talks more about what will happen when Jesus comes, and it doesn't talk about people being annihilated. On the other, hand it talks about the resurrection of the body among other things, and in order for that to be possible, they need to be in existence in the first place.

"For yet a little while" - Do you believe the wicked are annihilated while they're still alive here on earth?

"the wicked shall not be" - Shall not be, on earth, yes, it could fit with the context. Not "shall not be in existence". The wicked do not cease to exist after death, otherwise they couldn't be resurrected in the body, unless you mean they're somewhere else/in another state of being until that, but then you need to prove that Biblically.

Why do you bring these verses up? They talk about being consumed in the sense of dying physically, not ceasing to exist. Their soul still remains. Otherwise how could Jesus raise people from the dead?



Read it in light of the book of Revelation, where it talks about torment for the false prophet etc. If it means annihilation here, then that wouldn't be possible.




Where does it say that it's that fire which consumes them? Even if it does say that, it's not consumes as in annihilating. They've already experienced physical death before, and been in a state of spiritual death, so they remain in this state of spiritual death.

God can torment resurrected bodies of the wicked in hell, without annihilating them. It's not subject to physical death there.

I'd almost be convinced by your arguments, if, in fact, Sodom and Gomorrah were still on fire.
Or if there were any evidence that the human spirit is truly immortal.
I can't help but wonder why we need the gift of eternal life if it is inherent in us anyway?
Would you give your kid a car, for instance, if he already has a perfectly nice car already, but can't afford to park it in a safe place?
Or would you buy him a ticket into a good parking garage?
Just sayin'

 

[Angelquill]

Vision
Members of Christian Forums are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration. Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that Christian Forums will display the gracious love of God. Our rules were established for the benefit of both our membership and CF as a whole.

When I first got here and read that, I actually thought I'd find myself around positive and loving Christians who treated one another with consideration, and respect. I thought I was among friends.
It is not a mistake I will make again.

 

[Timothew]

If I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If I am able to discern every heresy and have all of the knowledge in heaven, and if I know everything there is to know about the depths of hell, But I do not love others, I make myself a total jerk.

 

[Albion]

If I am able to discern every heresy and have all of the knowledge in heaven, and if I know everything there is to know about the depths of hell, But I do not love others, I make myself a total jerk.

Must be one of those modern language translations.

 

[Jonathan95]

If I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If I am able to discern every heresy and have all of the knowledge in heaven, and if I know everything there is to know about the depths of hell, But I do not love others, I make myself a total jerk.

Vision
Members of Christian Forums are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration. Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that Christian Forums will display the gracious love of God. Our rules were established for the benefit of both our membership and CF as a whole.

When I first got here and read that, I actually thought I'd find myself around positive and loving Christians who treated one another with consideration, and respect. I thought I was among friends.
It is not a mistake I will make again.

Why do you think I'm not loving?

Why should I respect heresy and be positive towards it?

Don't forget 1 Cor 13:6 regarding the nature of true love, which: "does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;" (NKJV).

"speaking the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15 KJV)


The fact that one's soul is immortal/eternal, doesn't mean it possesses eternal life.

Since the life spoken of when when the Bible speaks of eternal life, is not about life in the sense of just being in existence.

It's a "zōē" kind of life, which not everyone possesses. However, those are still in existence, but spiritually dead, but doesn't mean they've no spirit because of that.

II. Life

A. of the absolute fulness of life [...]

B. life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.

Greek Lexicon :: G2222 (KJV)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Destroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.
.

Destroyer....Passover.....Titus....destruction of Jerusalem

Reve 9:11
and they are having of them king the Messenger of the Abyss, name to him to Hebrew abaddwn <3>,
and in the Greecian name is having destroyer/ap-olluwn <623>

575. apo apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near),
3639. olethros ol'-eth-ros from a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:--destruction.
3645. olothreuo ol-oth-ryoo'-o from 3639; to spoil, i.e. slay:--destroy.

Heb 11:28
Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed G3645 the firstborn should touch them.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival.
How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21..........

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.
Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND................





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[shturt678s]

Shades of Alexander the great...
Every good greek believed that the dead went into hades...
There were even ways to get into it while alive.
Hercules did it, for instance.
And I can't remember the fellow's name, but he made a deal with the Lord of the Underworld, the god Hades, to allow him to come in and bring his lady, who had died of a snake bite, back from the dead. Hades said he'd let her go, on the condition that she follow him out and he was not to look behind him to see her until they were both back in the land of the living.
He got as far as the exit...and he couldn't stand it any longer. He glanced over his shoulder to see if she was there, and she disappeared before his eyes. He had to leave her there in the land of the dead. It was a very sad story...

Thank you again for sharing.

Old Jack

 

[shturt678s]

The "spirits in prison" were fallen angels. "Darkness was on the face of the deep". Dragons, in the Bible, are associated with "deeps". The abyss. The bottomless pit..... reserved for the devil and his angels before Adam was ever formed out of the dust of the grounds. Lucifer kinda screwed things up a little after Genesis 1:1.

Only another opinion from me...remembering finally...thank you again for your pataience....age thing.

IPet.3:19, "spirits in prison" Hopefully also still on topic, Christ in His human body and spirit descended to hades (Apostles's Creed) ("hell," "the Gehenna of the fire"), and did what Peter relates.

Grammatically and contextually construed with v.20, Peter intends to say that Christ didn't make a heralding proclamation to those only who were disobedient at the time of the flood, which thought would require tois apeithesasi, "the disobedient," (the article repeated),, but to alllll the spirits in prison, all these being such as were disobedient.

Illustrative of allll the spirits of the damned in prison. All God's longsuffering could do nothing with these antidiluvians as it could do nothing with all these spirits which God had to consign to hades "hell."

This sample is the more in point because the Flood is a standing type of the final judgment.

No fallen angels here.

Old Jack still 'tryun' to stay on topic, 'tryun' not to falsify the Word, 'tryun' to not offend our Lord...still at the low end of the pecking order.

 

[shturt678s]

So let me get this straight, when someone studies Scripture and comes to an understanding of them on a particular subject and someone else's interpretation is different from mine, they're ideas are heresy.

Perfect!

If I may add they are also "off topic."

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Albion]

So let me get this straight, when someone studies Scripture and comes to an understanding of them on a particular subject and someone else's interpretation is different from mine, they're ideas are heresy.

A heresy is, literally, to walk apart (from the belief of the church). Merely having a belief that is different from the next fellow's view doesn't qualify. Or to put it another way, if you or I call any doctrine a heresy, that would be correct only to the extent that we are saying that it's contrary to something that the church itself has already determined.

 

[shturt678s]

Read the posts in this thread and you'll see numerous statements that those who do believe in eternal punishment are ignorant, lazy, dupes who accept tradition, can't be bothered to read their bibles, and are too stupid to understand it when they read it. That's worse that calling an error in theology a heresy. Post #379 is one more example of condemning those who disagree with annihilationism.

We're going to have to stop this excessive agreeing to agree.

At least I have a few things going for me, ie, alltimers & sometimers.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Mama Kidogo]

A heresy is, literally, to walk apart (from the belief of the church). So that is the only way any deviant or unusual belief can be a "heresy."

Merely having a belief that is different from the next fellow's view doesn't qualify. Or to put it another way, if you call any doctrine a heresy you would be correct only to the extent that you are saying that it's contrary to something that the church itself has defined.

Good point.

 

[shturt678s]

Destroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.

However, I'm sure you cannot find more verses that seem to support annihilationism (from your POV) than those that speak against, in the Gospels or the whole NT for that matter.

Thus, this verse has to be read in the light of everything else the Bible has to say about the state of the wicked after death. Otherwise you will make the Bible seem to contradict itself.



Well, do you think our souls will be reduced to ashes? Our souls do not cease to exist when we die physically.

How can they be "undergoing" (verb) punishment, if they're annihilated? If that's their punishment, how can they undergo this? How is annihilation fair in the light of this?:

"And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47 NKJV)




The Bible talks more about what will happen when Jesus comes, and it doesn't talk about people being annihilated. On the other, hand it talks about the resurrection of the body among other things, and in order for that to be possible, they need to be in existence in the first place.

"For yet a little while" - Do you believe the wicked are annihilated while they're still alive here on earth?

"the wicked shall not be" - Shall not be, on earth, yes, it could fit with the context. Not "shall not be in existence". The wicked do not cease to exist after death, otherwise they couldn't be resurrected in the body, unless you mean they're somewhere else/in another state of being until that, but then you need to prove that Biblically.

Why do you bring these verses up? They talk about being consumed in the sense of dying physically, not ceasing to exist. Their soul still remains. Otherwise how could Jesus raise people from the dead?



Read it in light of the book of Revelation, where it talks about torment for the false prophet etc. If it means annihilation here, then that wouldn't be possible.




Where does it say that it's that fire which consumes them? Even if it does say that, it's not consumes as in annihilating. They've already experienced physical death before, and been in a state of spiritual death, so they remain in this state of spiritual death.

God can torment resurrected bodies of the wicked in hell, without annihilating them. It's not subject to physical death there.

Did a better job than I could ever do! &

 

[James Is Back]

A heresy is, literally, to walk apart (from the belief of the church). Merely having a belief that is different from the next fellow's view doesn't qualify. Or to put it another way, if you or I call any doctrine a heresy, that would be correct only to the extent that we are saying that it's contrary to something that the church itself has already determined.

This post is a heresy j/k

Well maybe I was wrong about this thread. The fact we are still discussing it means that there isn't any rules broken.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you have to believe in eternal torture to be a good person, you're probably not a good person.

Ummmm, if you say so.......

2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body,
according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

The Good The Bad & The Ugly Original Trailer - YouTube



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[shturt678s]

This post is a heresy j/k

Well maybe I was wrong about this thread. The fact we are still discussing it means that there isn't any rules broken.

This thread has been and is orthodoxy, and sadly I sinfully stretch the rules knowingly at times and unknowingly at other times, yet they haven't gonged me yet...thank you Jesus!

I do have to admit this thread has been a blending of personalities where we're still getting along. Thank you Jesus.

Old Jack's opinion