Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[ViaCrucis]

Hell is real but whether you believe it's a torturous place of eternal damnation and suffering or not it's a separation from God.

A separation from:

1.God,Christ and the Holy Spirit-The entire Godhead
2.Love
3.Peace
4.Happiness
5.Joy
6.Everything that is good
7.Your loved ones that made it to Heaven and the New Kingdom

That my friends is more frightening,nightmarish and scary than being burned or destroyed completely.

Conversely, the Psalmist says, "Where can I go to escape from Your Presence? ... If I make my bed in She'ol You are there". Even in the deepest depths of death God is present--we cannot escape Him.

And for our Eastern brethren the ultimate state of the damned is not a separation from God, it is in fact the opposite--it is the full presence of God. God and the love which God has for all creatures cannot be escaped, and precisely what makes "heaven" heavenly for the saints is the same which makes "hell" hellish for the damned.

The concept of "eternal separation" seems to be both uniquely Western as well as relatively modern.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[James Is Back]

8.Life
What really matters is not which is the most frightening, nightmarish and scary thing we can imagine e.)

It should. It should show just how awful the separation from God is and how important it is not to head into that separation.

 

[James Is Back]

Conversely, the Psalmist says, "Where can I go to escape from Your Presence? ... If I make my bed in She'ol You are there". Even in the deepest depths of death God is present--we cannot escape Him.

And for our Eastern brethren the ultimate state of the damned is not a separation from God, it is in fact the opposite--it is the full presence of God. God and the love which God has for all creatures cannot be escaped, and precisely what makes "heaven" heavenly for the saints is the same which makes "hell" hellish for the damned.

The concept of "eternal separation" seems to be both uniquely Western as well as relatively modern.

-CryptoLutheran

What I mean by separation. I mean being separate from His presence(not being with Him),His Glory,His Knowledge and His Love.

 

[Timothew]

Annihilationism is a heresy that started in restorationist circles and is today commonly found among Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. I absolutely believe annihilationism to be a heresy.

Interesting. Why do you believe annihilationism to be a heresy?

What do you make of Matthew 10:28? Jesus said that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell (Gehenna). If the body and soul can't and won't be destroyed in hell, why should we fear? And since Jesus Christ said that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell, do you consider him to also be a heretic?

Incidentally, the truth is the truth, even if it is also believed by Adventists and JWs. The belief in eternal conscious torment is commonly found among Muslims. Does that make it true or false, or does their belief not affect the truth one way or another, just as the JW's belief doesn't prove or disprove eternal torture.

 

[Timothew]

It should. It should show just how awful the separation from God is and how important it is not to head into that separation.

What matters is what the Bible says.

 

[Timothew]

What I mean by separation. I mean being separate from His presence(not being with Him),His Glory,His Knowledge and His Love.

What does the symbol in your signature mean?

 

[James Is Back]

Annihilationism is a heresy that started in restorationist circles and is today commonly found among Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. I absolutely believe annihilationism to be a heresy.

I also have problems with the idea of universal reconciliation. A Christian can certainly hope and pray that all are saved, however, God is love AND he is justice. Would it be justice if a person rejected God their entire life and committed several evil acts with no care in the world and ended up in the same place as a person that spent their whole life working out their salvation with fear and trembling?

However, if a person believes in or hopes for universal reconciliation, while acknowledging that hell exists, is that person a heretic? It would seem to be a grey area. I think as long as the person doesn't teach that they know emphatically that hell is empty, then I don't see a real issue I guess. I do have a problem with people saying they know for sure that hell is empty and they teach this view to others.

I never accepted Universalism. Yes that would mean a complete happy ending but that's not the case and the Bible says so.

I can't figure out why those who believe in universal reconciliation believe that it exists when the Bible says it doesn't. It's not like they believe in scriptures but their own fantasy of a true happy ending.

Does anyone want to share a space with Lucifer? I think not!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Conversely, the Psalmist says, "Where can I go to escape from Your Presence? ... If I make my bed in She'ol You are there". Even in the deepest depths of death God is present--we cannot escape Him.

And for our Eastern brethren the ultimate state of the damned is not a separation from God, it is in fact the opposite--it is the full presence of God. God and the love which God has for all creatures cannot be escaped, and precisely what makes "heaven" heavenly for the saints is the same which makes "hell" hellish for the damned.

The concept of "eternal separation" seems to be both uniquely Western as well as relatively modern.

-CryptoLutheran

What about Revelation 14:10?
It doesn't say tortured in the presence of Yahweh, but in the presence of the Lamb. Interesting verse....

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm
　

TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB​

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations.

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB:
and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages - see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).

Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE.

The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves. Because they are wrong and sinful in nature, wicked in their hearts, selfish in their minds, and impure in their desires, they are CONDEMNED IN THEIR CONSCIENCES by the very PRESENCE of the pure, holy, sinless, selfless, sacrificing Lamb of God.



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[abysmul]

Incidentally, the truth is the truth, even if it is also believed by Adventists and JWs. The belief in eternal conscious torment is commonly found among Muslims. Does that make it true or false, or does their belief not affect the truth one way or another, just as the JW's belief doesn't prove or disprove eternal torture.

Ahh... but for many, the truth is only what their denominational leaders tell them.

 

[James Is Back]

What matters is what the Bible says.

That I agree with you. And this is what was told to me what the symbol in my signature means:

Sure. I'm glad you asked. It's an Arabic letter called Nun. It's English equivalent is our letter "N".
The Radical Muslims in Syria and Iraq are painting it on the homes of Christians to identify them as Christian. We wear it proudly in support of our Arab Christian brothers and sisters being Martyred. Much like the cross was designed as a symbol of fear by the Roman Empire, Christians take symbols of persecution and turn them into symbols of hope.

MoreCoffee has a very good explanation beside the symbol in his signature.

 

[Timothew]

Ahh... but for many, the truth is only what their denominational leaders tell them.

So it seems. Edit to add - I'm a Baptist, if I only believe what the denom leaders tell me, I have to believe that the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell instead of death, as the Bible says.

For me, it doesn't matter who else believes the truth, it won't stop me from believing the truth. But so many people who believe in eternal conscious torment commit the logical fallacy of linking annihilationism to JWs, that I have to continually point it out. Adolf Hitler believed in eternal conscious torment in hell. That doesn't make it true or false. It is a smokescreen.

 

[Sean611]

Interesting. Why do you believe annihilationism to be a heresy?

What do you make of Matthew 10:28? Jesus said that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell (Gehenna). If the body and soul can't and won't be destroyed in hell, why should we fear? And since Jesus Christ said that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell, do you consider him to also be a heretic?

Incidentally, the truth is the truth, even if it is also believed by Adventists and JWs. The belief in eternal conscious torment is commonly found among Muslims. Does that make it true or false, or does their belief not affect the truth one way or another, just as the JW's belief doesn't prove or disprove eternal torture.

I don't like the idea of cherry-picking scriptures to support arguments, but I'll bite. In Matthew 10:28, we are told that man can kill man, however, man cannot kill the soul. Correct? Jesus then says that we should fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Correct? Here is where annihilationists go astray. The Greek word that is used in this verse is different when it comes to man can do to man (apokteino) vs what God can do (apollumi). If these two Greek words had been the same, you might have a point. However, the Greek word apollumi reflects a "ruined" or even a "lost" state and a continuation of existence.

 

[SolomonVII]

So if a Christian did not believe that some people will stay in hell and be eternally punished/tortured, and instead believed in Annihiliationism or Universal Reconciliation, is that heretical thought?

Or what if a Christian was not sure on which belief in hell to accept (and therefore was not 100% sure that an eternal hell exists)?

Just curious on people's opinions here on whether or not it is heresy to not accept 100% the traditional view of hell.

PS: This may belong in the unorthodox section, thought I did want to see the opinion of people who are orthodox when it comes to this matter.

Advocating universalism used to get people banned from the orthodox sections of CF, if I am not mistaken.
So in terms of how heresy is defined by CF, I believe it would be. Believing that the population of hell is zero likely is not an heretic belief though.

 

[Rhamiel]

So it seems. Edit to add - I'm a Baptist, if I only believe what the denom leaders tell me, I have to believe that the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell instead of death, as the Bible says.

For me, it doesn't matter who else believes the truth, it won't stop me from believing the truth. But so many people who believe in eternal conscious torment commit the logical fallacy of linking annihilationism to JWs, that I have to continually point it out. Adolf Hitler believed in eternal conscious torment in hell. That doesn't make it true or false. It is a smokescreen.

we also see the Bible use a lot of language about being "born again"

also we have Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved

"even when we were dead in transgressions"
so the Bible seems ok with describing a state of being as "dead" presumably spiritual death but still existing
so I do agree that Hell is a type of unending death
but that is not the same as being annihilated or a cessation of being or even a type of soul sleep
rather it would be more like a state of being of the undegenerated, unrepentant sinner

 

[Albion]

Advocating universalism used to get people banned from the orthodox sections of CF, if I am not mistaken.
So in terms of how heresy is defined by CF, I believe it would be. Believing that the population of hell is zero likely is not an heretic belief though.

Long before I came to CF I had been told by religious teachers that denying hell (i.e. affirming universal salvation) is indeed a heresy.

BTW, it is common for EO Christians to hope that God has a plan by which all MAY be saved in the end, but those whom I've spoken with take care to say that they don't posit that it necessarily will happen--and for this very reason, that to make it a firm belief would be heretical.

 

[seeingeyes]

Long before I came to CF I had been told by religious teachers that denying hell (i.e. affirming universal salvation) is indeed a heresy.

BTW, it is common for EO Christians to hope that God has a plan by which all MAY be saved in the end, but those whom I've spoken with take care to say that they don't posit that it necessarily will happen--and for this very reason, that to make it a firm belief would be heretical.

Being wrong, even firmly wrong, is not the definition of a heresy, though.

Or if it is, we are all heretics.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think it's something like this:

To say, dogmatically, all will be saved is unorthodox.

To say we hope and pray that all will be saved is orthodox.

To hope and pray that, in the end, all are saved is a good and pious hope of the Church.

But it would be in error to be dogmatic about it.

As such Universalism as a matter of dogma is historically less-than-orthodox. Which doesn't mean that we cannot hope for universal reconciliation or hope optimistically for the apokatastasis panton; but it means that we cannot speak above, beyond, or contrary to what the Christian Church has historically confessed.

I think it's a fuzzy area. The Creeds certainly don't have much of anything to say on the matter. None of the Ecumenical Councils (by which I mean the seven of the undivided Church) address it. The closest any of the Councils get that I'm aware of is that the Fifth Ecumenical Council may have condemned Origen on account of later hyper-Origenists and their belief in the "fabulous preexistence of souls"; but even there the issue is strictly on the idea of the preexistence of the soul specifically, not the Origenist proclivity toward ultimate and universal reconciliation. I say "may" as there is some controversy over whether or not the Canon condemning Origen is original or a later addition.

That all said, CF's rules are CF's rules.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Willie T]

I like the part of the Bible where Jesus says to believe in Hell to be saved.

Oh....... Maybe that was simply... "Believe in HIM."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Long before I came to CF I had been told by religious teachers that denying hell (i.e. affirming universal salvation) is indeed a heresy.

BTW, it is common for EO Christians to hope that God has a plan by which all MAY be saved in the end, but those whom I've spoken with take care to say that they don't posit that it necessarily will happen--and for this very reason, that to make it a firm belief would be heretical.

If I am not mistaken, God never says ALL will be saved, but rather He desires all of mankind to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 Who desires/wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

God Will Have All Men Be Saved​

On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says.......

"there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means.
If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!​

Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

[Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer!

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."

This text is one of rare beauty. It is indeed like a precious diamond, the effulgence of whose radiance dazzles the mind. It is a drop of pure distilled essence, whose fragrance fills the rooms of the heart. It is a joy forevermore and a challenge to everyone who reads it with an understanding heart. It should be engraved upon the heart of every saint of God.
There is so much depth to that text that I am afraid that we often do not even perceive it. It is like a beautiful sky of deep rich blue and one cannot even begin to grasp the vast depth above us. So it is with this passage!




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[Rhamiel]

Why would it be heresy?

because it goes against the traditional teachings of Christianity as understood by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Coptic Church, and historically, every major Protestant denomination that is over 300 years old