Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

[DavidPT]

Why do you always avoid any posts and Scripture that forbids your beliefs?

Some of you still don't get it. I don't know if some of you ever will get it. Per Premil, for example, there are Premils that hold to OSAS, and there are Premils that hold to NOSAS. Premil is not affected in any way whatsoever if OSAS is Biblical but that NOSAS isn't, or that NOSAS is Biblical but OSAS isn't. Neither of those positions alone can prove or disprove Premil. The same can't be said per Amil. Per Amil, OSAS would not contradict Revelation 20:6, but NOSAS would. This is not a problem unless NOSAS is Biblical. Because, if NOSAS is Biblical, Amil can't be Biblical as well, since holding to both of these positions would be contradicting Revelation 20:6. For example, not one single person that has part in the first resurrection does not finish the thousand year reign they began. NOSAS, together with Amil, proposes that some who who have part in the first resurrection do not ever finish the thousand year reign that they began. Per Premil this couldn't possibly happen, even if NOSAS is Biblical.


Why would any Amils, regardless who they are, find it reasonable that some who have part in the first resurrection do not even finish reigning with Christ a thousand years? Where in Revelation 20:6 does it even hint as to a possibility like that?

And I would say the same, for example, animal sacrificing resuming after the 2nd coming. Why would any Premils, regardless who they are, find it acceptable that animal sacrificing could continue post the 2nd coming, in light of the fact that when Christ went to the cross this put an end for the need of this for forever?


Which of the following would be the truth, and which wouldn't, since both can't be true?

A) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---and every single person that has part in the first resurrection shall reign with him a thousand years. (Meaning they all finish the reign they began)


B) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---but not everyone that has part in the first resurrection shall reign with him a thousand years. (Meaning not all of them even finish the reign they began)


I'm not trying to pit Amils against other Amils, as Eric seemed to think I have been doing, according to an earlier post he submitted. I'm just trying to get through to the Amils that hold the NOSAS position, the fact truth is on their side by them holding that NOSAS position, and that that position contradicts Revelation 20:6 if one is both Amil and are in the NOSAS camp.

 

[BABerean2]

You're adding resurrections to the only resurrection, which is Christ's.

Is the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation?

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[DavidPT]

Is the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation?

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Why would it have to be if it's a type of resurrection, as I tend to think? It's the resurrection unto life, and that it's first in more ways than one. The resurrection unto life precedes the resurrection unto damnation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, for one proves it. That is one example as to how it can be the first. It doesn't matter that there have been other resurrections prior to the one in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, such as Christ's resurrection. That resurrection also preceded the resurrection unto damnation, and that that too was the resurrection unto life, therefore making Christ's resurrection the first resurrection as well.

The question is, does one after they have part in the first resurrection still die, or does one after they have part in the first resurrection never die again? What would be true in Christ's case, the former or the latter? What would be true per the dead in Christ who rise first, the former or the latter?

 

[Zao is life]

You've completely and utterly lost me.

What is the symbolism of an eagle like being saying, "Go"?

And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, `Come and behold!' YLT

The Greek word is either "Come!" or "Go" (it can be used either way. The other word means to take heed. So "Go! Take heed!" or "Come! Look, and take heed!"

I have no idea why it's significant that one of the four living creatures/beasts is the one speaking. I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from, and would need a crash-course on why you say what you do (but if it's a crash-course made public, then everyone else will be shouting you down and you will be answering all their objections instead of my questions).

- and then I still might disagree with what you are saying, or might not.

Maybe you could start a thread on that, or better still, create a Blog post.

If sheep and wheat are spiritually changed in the Trumpets and Thunders. Do angels physically come to earth when a Christian dies?

I have no idea about every time a Christian dies. All I know is that when the Lord appears, He will send his angels to gather His elect:

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Mat 24:31

The wording suggests to me that angels do not set foot on the earth either.

Is John's death and destruction symbolism literally flipped? Is he saying that physical death is a good thing, and physically staying alive is a bad thing?

I understand him to be saying that when saints are being martyred by the beast, then those saints are blessed in that they will be resurrected, and will live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and the 2nd death will have no power over them.

The only way to be Resurrected in Revelation 20:4 seems to be if your soul was taken from your dead body and brought to the thrones (by angels) for judgment. But not all of humanity, just those now (post trib earth) physically living on earth in an incorruptible body the second death cannot touch.

I'm not following you at all on that. Paul taught us that when Christ appears, the dead in Christ will rise first - that would include the martyred two witnesses - and then those who are still alive will be changed and be raptured together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (this also implies that Christ did not set His feet on the earth when He came to gather His elect).

Revelation 20 speaks only about those who had been beheaded for the testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast. It says nothing about the rest of the saints, the Jews or anyone else.

I do not believe those mentioned in Rev 20:4 will appear before the throne before their resurrection, nor before the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming, and the resurrection of all those who ever at any time died in Christ. I cannot see how this would be the case. To me Revelation 20's saints are saints who had been martyred by the beast, and John saying "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on" is precisely because they are the saints of the final great tribulation who will reign with Christ for a thousand years. It's a word of encouragement.

Is the 4th seal a pre-emptive strike by Satan as an attack on the church? How does such an attack work? No one can know the hour of the Second Coming, yet 25% of those on earth seemingly die immediately before the 5th and 6th seal.

Where does it say the 4th seal is symbolizing a preemptive strike on the church on the part of Satan? I believe in the possibility that the seals follow the birth-pain events of the Olivet Discourse, but I don't have opinions on details (simply because I don't understand every detail of the symbolism - not the four living creatures, not the eyes, not the locusts, etc). So that means either you understand more than me, or you you believe that x = y but you could be wrong.

"When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!” I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse."

Does the fourth beast tip off Satan?

See, you've completely, thoroughly lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about - but because you've obviously inquired a lot more than me as to the meaning of the 1/3 and 1/4 and what the living creatures symbolize etc, I can't either agree or disagree with anything you say about it, nor answer all your questions. I'm as ignorant as someone who has never read the Revelation when it comes to the 1/3 and the 1/4 and the living creatures and locusts and eyes and what it all symbolizes. I brush over details like percentages of people killed etc if I have no idea what it means.

What John is not saying when 25% and 33% and whatever percent in the Thunders are killed is telling. What it tells needs more Scriptural insight.

Are 25% of the population taking out in the rapture? Is 33% of the remaining population chosen Jews? Will all that is left just be die hard Satan worshipers?

Can't answer you.

 

[Zao is life]

Is the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation?

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I've said this to you more than once. Yet, you keep asking the same question, and the question itself is based on the false notion of more than one resurrection.

Adam's death came to all men. Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection and through Him, all will be raised. Mankind has until now experienced only one death (the death that's in Adam or mankind), and mankind has and will experience only one resurrection - the resurrection that's in the last Adam, who is Christ.

The only way there would ever be a "2nd resurrection" is after the 2nd death (but that is not going to happen, because death is destroyed at the time of the 2nd death).

So why are you looking for a 2nd resurrection?

Paul told you when the saints spoken of in Revelation 20 will be raised, and when the two witnesses will be raised; and when all those who had died in Christ will be raised, and when those who are Christ's at His coming will be raised.

I'm not going to repeat it. I believe Paul regarding the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming and the fact that the dead in Christ will rise first, and the fact that those still alive when He returns will be changed and raptured; I believe the Lord Jesus Christ regarding the saints in Revelation 20, and I believe Paul regarding when they will be raised from the dead.

I don't need to insert fanciful notions into Revelation 20 which are strange and foreign to the text.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Some of you still don't get it. I don't know if some of you ever will get it. Per Premil, for example, there are Premils that hold to OSAS, and there are Premils that hold to NOSAS. Premil is not affected in any way whatsoever if OSAS is Biblical but that NOSAS isn't, or that NOSAS is Biblical but OSAS isn't. Neither of those positions alone can prove or disprove Premil. The same can't be said per Amil. Per Amil, OSAS would not contradict Revelation 20:6, but NOSAS would. This is not a problem unless NOSAS is Biblical. Because, if NOSAS is Biblical, Amil can't be Biblical as well, since holding to both of these positions would be contradicting Revelation 20:6. For example, not one single person that has part in the first resurrection does not finish the thousand year reign they began. NOSAS, together with Amil, proposes that some who who have part in the first resurrection do not ever finish the thousand year reign that they began. Per Premil this couldn't possibly happen, even if NOSAS is Biblical.


Why would any Amils, regardless who they are, find it reasonable that some who have part in the first resurrection do not even finish reigning with Christ a thousand years? Where in Revelation 20:6 does it even hint as to a possibility like that?

And I would say the same, for example, animal sacrificing resuming after the 2nd coming. Why would any Premils, regardless who they are, find it acceptable that animal sacrificing could continue post the 2nd coming, in light of the fact that when Christ went to the cross this put an end for the need of this for forever?


Which of the following would be the truth, and which wouldn't, since both can't be true?

A) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---and every single person that has part in the first resurrection shall reign with him a thousand years. (Meaning they all finish the reign they began)


B) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---but not everyone that has part in the first resurrection shall reign with him a thousand years. (Meaning not all of them even finish the reign they began)


I'm not trying to pit Amils against other Amils, as Eric seemed to think I have been doing, according to an earlier post he submitted. I'm just trying to get through to the Amils that hold the NOSAS position, the fact truth is on their side by them holding that NOSAS position, and that that position contradicts Revelation 20:6 if one is both Amil and are in the NOSAS camp.

There are many similar verses that I have quoted on this thread that say the same pertaining to the here-and-now but you duck around them. Why will you not address them? Because it would totally negate your attack on NOSAS Amils.

 

[BABerean2]

The resurrection unto life precedes the resurrection unto damnation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, for one proves it. That is one example as to how it can be the first. It doesn't matter that there have been other resurrections prior to the one in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, such as Christ's resurrection. That resurrection also preceded the resurrection unto damnation, and that that too was the resurrection unto life, therefore making Christ's resurrection the first resurrection as well.

Both are found in the passage below, because you cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead.

We find reward for the Saints and destruction for the wicked in Revelation 11:18, at the time of the judgment of the dead.

We find the living "nations" and the "wrath" of God at the beginning of the verse.

Therefore, we find the fulfillment of 2 Timothy 4:1 in this passage.

Once again, it proves the book is not in chronological order.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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[Timtofly]

What you are claiming above is against Christianity 101.
A dead body is made up of elements from the earth, which does not include a soul.

Your post has nothing to do with the post you quoted one bit. You claim two bodies lay unchanged for 3.5 days. Then declare that a resurrection. A soul cannot die, but it does not need a live body does it? You claim souls have no body in heaven. What is different about a no body and a dead body. Neither one are alive.

 

[Timtofly]

Some of you still don't get it. I don't know if some of you ever will get it.

Some Amil have to prove that these people are still alive physically today. This resurrection happened at the Cross in some Amil thought. That is why it is "only spiritual" and not physical. They have to be given a body, because they rule with Christ in physical Jerusalem. Changing the text for one thing, keeps moving a goal post that changes more of the text.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the Bible the word "resurrection" is used only in reference to the resurrection of the body.

It isn't just a case of semantics. "Spiritual resurrection" is Chrstianeze and is talking about something that does not exist because the word resurrection in the Bible only refers to resurrection of the body from death. Here are the verses in the N.T talking about the resurrection: OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Take note of the Greek words found in the verses you quoted below:

Ephesians 2:4-6 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with (Greek: συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō) Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with (Greek: συνεγείρω synegeírō) Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō
to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):--quicken together with.

υνεγείρω synegeírō
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

Well, I do understand your point, but this really doesn't affect my particular belief since I believe the first resurrection is Christ's bodily resurrection. His resurrection was the first unto bodily immortality.

Acts 26:23 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

I believe when it talks about having part in the first resurrection, it's referring to spiritually having part in it, but the first resurrection itself was Christ's resurrection.

Next in order of the bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality will occur at His second coming.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, the order is Christ's resurrection first, which obviously happened long ago. Then next in order are those of us who belong to Him who are going to be resurrected "when He comes".

 

[Timtofly]

Is the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation?

Yes, a soul was given a brand new body. They went from their Adam body during the Trumpets to an incorruptible body that escapes the second death. If they had Adam's sinful body, they would have to die the second time because of sin and death. Some died because their head was cut off. Do you think God re-attached their heads yet made them live in sin and death body?

It is a bodily resurrection because they have a body and are not just a soul. The new body is incorruptible, because the second death has no power over an incorruptible body free of sin and death by sin.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm sorry you don't realize that death no longer has dominion over someone only after he is raised from the dead in his body, but I'm happy your misunderstandings will not affect your salvation.

How does the second death (is that the death you're talking about?) have dominion over a believer who has died and their souls have gone to heaven? Is that what you're saying? You seem to be saying that it still has dominion over them until their bodies are raised from the dead.

If that's what you're saying then I don't agree with that because they are already destined for eternity in the new heavens and new earth and the second death already has no power over them because of that. So, the second death currently has no power over the souls John saw in heaven. How could it? Their fates are already sealed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well then you'll have to abandon Amil. Because NOSAS is incompatible with Amil.

No, it is not and I have shown that. This is a lie.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yet, this alone doesn't disprove Premil, but, NOSAS alone does disprove Amil if NOSAS is Biblical.

No, it does not disprove amil and I've shown that it does not. And you have not proven otherwise. Not even close. The only thing you've proven is that you are desperate to find any excuse to believe in premil.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Some of you still don't get it.

We get the truth and we get that what you're saying is not the truth.

Why would any Amils, regardless who they are, find it reasonable that some who have part in the first resurrection do not even finish reigning with Christ a thousand years? Where in Revelation 20:6 does it even hint as to a possibility like that?

I've already asked you how verses like John 5:24 even hint of the possibility of someone losing their salvation and you haven't answered that. You know it doesn't. So, does that mean OSAS is true or do we need to look at scripture as a whole to determine that instead of drawing that conclusion from one verse the way you're drawing conclusions from the one verse in Rev 20:6?

 

[Timtofly]

You've completely and utterly lost me.
And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, `Come and behold!' YLT

The Greek word is either "Come!" or "Go" (it can be used either way. The other word means to take heed. So "Go! Take heed!" or "Come! Look, and take heed!"

I have no idea why it's significant that one of the four living creatures/beasts is the one speaking. I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from, and would need a crash-course on why you say what you do (but if it's a crash-course made public, then everyone else will be shouting you down and you will be answering all their objections instead of my questions).

- and then I still might disagree with what you are saying, or might not.

Maybe you could start a thread on that, or better still, create a Blog post.

Not a blogger. I only work off of people posting God's Word. Or contradicting God's Word more than the other it seems.

John associates the 4 beings/beast from the OT prophets with the first 4 seals. Some try to figure out the horsemen, most over look the 4 beings. Just asking, no big deal.

I have no idea about every time a Christian dies. All I know is that when the Lord appears, He will send his angels to gather His elect:

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Mat 24:31

The wording suggests to me that angels do not set foot on the earth either.

The gathering in heaven (Matthew 24:31) is the OT church already in Paradise. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The crowd in Paradise currently is larger than the church alive today, it would seem. That is one job of the angels, round them up and prepare them to come with Jesus to meet those alive on earth.

This job of the angels: 2 Thessalonians 5-8

5 "This is clear evidence that God’s judgment is just; and as a result, you will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God for which you are suffering.
6 For it is justice for God to pay back trouble to those who are troubling you,
7 and to give rest along with us to you who are being troubled, when the Lord Yeshua is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
8 in a fiery flame. Then he will punish those who don’t know God, that is, those who don’t listen to the Good News of our Lord Yeshua and obey it."

Compared to: Revelation 6:9-13

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.
12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.

The martyrs seeking vengeance. Paul says mighty angels in fiery flame. John says the stars fall to earth like a tree that looses all the leaves. And just after the 5th seal of seeking vengeance for the martyred souls. John's symbolism explained with Paul's literalism. John claims they did come to earth. It is literally angels, stars would just be some great big lake of fire. Hhhmmm.. lake of fire?

I understand him to be saying that when saints are being martyred by the beast, then those saints are blessed in that they will be resurrected, and will live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and the 2nd death will have no power over them.
I'm not following you at all on that. Paul taught us that when Christ appears, the dead in Christ will rise first - that would include the martyred two witnesses - and then those who are still alive will be changed and be raptured together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (this also implies that Christ did not set His feet on the earth when He came to gather His elect).

I accept the 6th seal second coming/rapture. The event that No one is expecting. 90% Of the church seems to think the second coming is at the battle of Armageddon. Not very surprising because it can be counted down to the day. 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. They die on a Wednesday and lay for 3.5 days, so on Sunday afternoon between 5pm and 6pm, for one hour, the 10 kings and Satan, FP, and beast meet Christ and His army coming from Heaven at the battle of Armageddon. Day and hour, so not the second coming or rapture. The two witnesses die years after the Second Coming/Rapture in the 6th seal. The witnesses do leave before the battle, but the Lamb and God on the throne already finished the earthly ministry 42 months prior to the battle of Armageddon.

Wednesday April 5th 2023 is the 14th of Nisan, 7 years prior to Wednesday April 17th 2030 another 14th of Nisan. Wednesdy April 5th 30 was also the 14th of Nisan. 2000 years has to be a hard limit to time, if Genesis 1and 2 are a calendar of God's finite creation. Personally to me, it seems the 42 months go from the April 5th 2023 date to October 6th 2027. Yom Kippur is the following Monday. The first day of the Millennium. I am not saying it is. Just pointing out facts.

Just speculating.

Revelation 20 speaks only about those who had been beheaded for the testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast. It says nothing about the rest of the saints, the Jews or anyone else.

I do not believe those mentioned in Rev 20:4 will appear before the throne before their resurrection, nor before the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming, and the resurrection of all those who ever at any time died in Christ. I cannot see how this would be the case. To me Revelation 20's saints are saints who had been martyred by the beast, and John saying "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on" is precisely because they are the saints of the final great tribulation who will reign with Christ for a thousand years. It's a word of encouragement.

Because it is the fulfillment of Abraham's covenant. The fulfillment of David's covenant. It is not about the church. It is about the restoration of the earth for the Lord's Day. Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham. The only reason there is a physical Millennium reign. The lost sheep of Israel. The wheat also there to repopulate the Nations. Those beheaded chose to be saved and may or may not even realize the significance. Did they experience an encounter with the Lamb and the 144k, and tried to avoid any spiritual dialog? I do not see how any one can avoid God and the Lamb and stay in the dark on what is going on. Do not ask me why God allows the prodigal child out in sin to get the physical blessing while the church (elder brother) faithful for 1990 years gets to go to Paradise.

Where does it say the 4th seal is symbolizing a preemptive strike on the church on the part of Satan? I believe in the possibility that the seals follow the birth-pain events of the Olivet Discourse, but I don't have opinions on details (simply because I don't understand every detail of the symbolism - not the four living creatures, not the eyes, not the locusts, etc). So that means either you understand more than me, or you you believe that x = y but you could be wrong.

Yes, I could be wrong. I would prefer to talk to John himself, but not really that picky on who is willing to chat on things that are unfolding around us with biblical significance.

Who starts an event involving war, famine, plague, and introducing an army of wild animals that have somehow been motivated to raise up against humanity? Every one is waiting for the battle of Armageddon. How can we skip to the end?

See, you've completely, thoroughly lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about - but because you've obviously inquired a lot more than me as to the meaning of the 1/3 and 1/4 and what the living creatures symbolize etc, I can't either agree or disagree with anything you say about it, nor answer all your questions. I'm as ignorant as someone who has never read the Revelation when it comes to the 1/3 and the 1/4 and the living creatures and locusts and eyes and what it all symbolizes. I brush over details like percentages of people killed etc if I have no idea what it means.
Can't answer you.

That is ok, I do a lot of thinking outside of the proverbial theological box. I try not to push the limits too much though. You do not have to reply. I was just seeing who has put any thought into Revelation 6. Most seem to think the seals opened up over history like chapters 2 and 3 to the 7 churches. I think they started a year ago. 10.5 years prior to Wednesday April 5th 2030.

 

[Zao is life]

Well, I do understand your point, but this really doesn't affect my particular belief since I believe the first resurrection is Christ's bodily resurrection. His resurrection was the first unto bodily immortality.

Acts 26:23 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

I believe when it talks about having part in the first resurrection, it's referring to spiritually having part in it, but the first resurrection itself was Christ's resurrection.

Next in order of the bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality will occur at His second coming.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, the order is Christ's resurrection first, which obviously happened long ago. Then next in order are those of us who belong to Him who are going to be resurrected "when He comes".

Good. Then we agree on all the points you make above, but I want to add something that Christians often overlook:

Adam's death came to all mankind. Christ is the last Adam and His resurrection comes to all mankind - but each in his own order:

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You know this, and you have already quoted the same, but this is important, because there has only been one death - Adam's death (mankind's death). The 2nd death cannot take place until all who died in Adam have been made alive through the last Adam's resurrection from death.

Christ is the last Adam, the son of Man, meaning He represents all mankind, just as Adam did:

John 11:23-25
"Jesus said to her, Your brother shall [anístēmi] rise again.
Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live."

So there is only one "1st death" - (Adam's death, which is mankind's death) and the 1st resurrection is the only resurrection from this same death. There is no "2nd. 3rd, 4th" etc resurrection, no matter at what point in "Time" any resurrection occurs because of Christ's - the last Adam's - resurrection.

Hypothetically speaking, the only way there could be a "2nd resurrection" is after the 2nd death (but that's never going to happen, because death is destroyed when it's thrown into the LOF, and this IS the 2nd death).

As we all know, death and Satan have already been defeated, but neither have yet been destroyed.

Death came through the first Adam, who represents all mankind, because we were all born into the world as sons and daughters of Adam. The resurrection came through the last Adam. The resurrection has already come to Adam, and in Adam (in the last Adam), but it's coming "next" to all who are in Christ, and therefore have already been synegeiro - raised with Him:

Colossians 2:12
"Buried [συνθάπτω syntháptō] with him in baptism, wherein also ye are [συνεγε synegeírō] risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

The only way this comes about is through spiritual birth from above:

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen]). "

When Adam sinned, he died, spiritually. He lost his connection to the Spirit of God, and we are told that he was prevented from eating from "the tree of life" and therefore would not live forever. It's a spiritual birth into Christ which results in the resurrection of the body from death. It's not a spiritual resurrection from death.

I should put that last sentence in red, because it's not merely a question of semantics - quite clearly, from what is posted by some here, there is a lot of misunderstanding that gets built on top of the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

How does the second death (is that the death you're talking about?) have dominion over a believer who has died and their souls have gone to heaven? Is that what you're saying?

No, that is not what I'm saying.

I believe in NOSAS, so I believe that the 2nd death will still have power over apostate believers, but not after they have remained faithful to the end, and have died in Christ.

Next up, they will be bodily resurrected at the time of the return of Christ. The 2nd death will have no power over them.

But what is the 2nd death?

The answer comes from the answer to the question: What is the 1st death?

The first death is Adam's death that came to all mankind. The last Adam's resurrection from the dead is the 1st resurrection from the dead. "Resurrection" always implies a bodily resurrection. The 2nd death can only take place after the resurrection from the 1st death has taken place.

In Revelation 20 the souls who had been beheaded are seen living. They had been beheaded because of their testimony to Christ and their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or number of his name.

Revelation 15:2-4
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

The above souls mentioned in Revelation 15 are shown to be in heaven, and it appears they are not yet risen. The 2nd death will have no power over them. The bowls of wrath are either about to be poured out or have already been poured out (it would appear the bowls of wrath are about to be poured out).

Whether these saints in Revelation 15 are mentioned here because they went through this period of wrath and are killed by the beast during this period, or whether they had been killed by the beast (for refusal to worship him or receive his mark) before the bowls of wrath are poured out, I do not know (see the interjection of Jesus in the 6th bowl where He says, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.").

However, Revelation 16:1-6 suggests these souls seen in heaven in Revelation 15 have been killed by the beast before the bowls of wrath are poured out.

The point is: They will rise from the dead, and the 2nd death will have no power over them - but the 2nd death only occurs after the 1st resurrection, which is the resurrection from the 1st death.

It is confusing birth from above by the Spirit of God with the resurrection of the body (the resurrection which comes from spiritual birth into Christ), that causes all this misunderstanding, in my opinion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Good. Then we agree on all the points you make above, but I want to add something that Christians often overlook:

Adam's death came to all mankind. Christ is the last Adam and His resurrection comes to all mankind - but each in his own order:

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You know this, and you have already quoted the same, but this is important, because there has only been one death - Adam's death (mankind's death). The 2nd death cannot take place until all who died in Adam have been made alive through the last Adam's resurrection from death.

Christ is the last Adam, the son of Man, meaning He represents all mankind, just as Adam did:

John 11:23-25
"Jesus said to her, Your brother shall [anístēmi] rise again.
Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live."

So there is only one "1st death" - (Adam's death, which is mankind's death) and the 1st resurrection is the only resurrection from this same death. There is no "2nd. 3rd, 4th" etc resurrection, no matter at what point in "Time" any resurrection occurs because of Christ's - the last Adam's - resurrection.

You lost me here, which means most likely anything you say after this isn't going to make any sense to me.

We agree that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality, right? To me, His resurrection ALONE is the first resurrection. But, Paul says there is an order to the resurrections unto bodily immortality. It's Christ's the firstfruits as the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection). That's it. Paul indicates that there is an order (each in turn) to the resurrections unto bodily immortality.

Again, Christ's was the first in order and that obviously occurred long ago already. Next in turn to be resurrected unto bodily immortality are "those who belong to Him" which occurs "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Clearly, the next resurrection in turn unto bodily immortality is not the first resurrection because that has already happened long ago. So, the mass resurrection of the dead in Christ unto bodily immortality that will occur at His second coming is the SECOND resurrection unto bodily immortality.

Calling that the first resurrection does not line up with what Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:22-23. A first resurrection unto bodily immortality implies a second, but despite that, you deny that there is a second resurrection unto bodily immortality.

Another point I'd like to make is regarding the passage you brought up, John 11:23-25. You pointed out the reference to Christ's resurrection in the passage, but there's other things from that passage that we should notice.

John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

First, notice that Jesus says that the one who believes in Him will be alive even when they are dead and the one who believes in Him will never die. What does that mean?

I believe it means that those of us who believe in Him have been made spiritually alive after being dead in sins (Eph 2:1-6, John 5:24-25) and if we believe in Him until we physically die then our souls go to be with Him in heaven. Our souls don't die and will never die.

He clearly was not saying that those who believe in Him will never physically die since we all do, so that's why it has to be that He was saying those who believe in Him will be made alive spiritually and will never die (of course, with the understanding that they continue to believe in Him until their physical death).

This goes along with what Rev 20 says. Jesus said that anyone who believes in Him will live (Greek: zaō) and never die. In Rev 20:14 it says that the souls John saw in heaven live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ. Why? Because they have spiritually had part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection. You don't have to be physically resurrected (Greek: anastasis) in order to live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ. This is what premil misses.

Another point I want to make regarding John 11:24 is that the bodily resurrection of the dead will occur "at the last day". Premil has the bodily resurrection of believers occurring before the last day which contradicts what scripture teaches.

The last day is the same day that unbelievers are judged:

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

We know that unbelievers will be condemned on judgement day AFTER the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15). Scripture teaches that believers will be raised from the dead on that same day. This is just another in a long list of problems that premils cannot reconcile with their view.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No, that is not what I'm saying.

I believe in NOSAS, so I believe that the 2nd death will still have power over apostate believers, but not after they have remained faithful to the end, and have died in Christ.

Okay, so in terms of the ones who were not apostate and remained faithful to the end, their souls go to be in heaven when they die, right (absent from the body, present with the Lord)? So, at the point when a saved person dies and their soul goes to be in heaven, does the second death have power over them at that point? No, right?

So, my point then is why do you act as if it's not until their bodily resurrection that the second death no longer has power over them when the fact of the matter is that the second death already no longer has power over them when they are physically dead and their souls are in heaven?

Next up, they will be bodily resurrected at the time of the return of Christ. The 2nd death will have no power over them.

Does it have power over them now? No, it does not because they are already guaranteed that they will inherit eternal bodily life when Christ returns and will never suffer the second death. This is what you're missing.

But what is the 2nd death?

The answer comes from the answer to the question: What is the 1st death?

The first death is Adam's death that came to all mankind. The last Adam's resurrection from the dead is the 1st resurrection from the dead. "Resurrection" always implies a bodily resurrection. The 2nd death can only take place after the resurrection from the 1st death has taken place.

In Revelation 20 the souls who had been beheaded are seen living. They had been beheaded because of their testimony to Christ and their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or number of his name.

Revelation 15:2-4
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

The above souls mentioned in Revelation 15 are shown to be in heaven, and it appears they are not yet risen. The 2nd death will have no power over them.

Does the second death have any power over them now? No. This is what you're missing.

Whether these saints in Revelation 15 are mentioned here because they went through this period of wrath and are killed by the beast during this period, or whether they had been killed by the beast (for refusal to worship him or receive his mark) before the bowls of wrath are poured out, I do not know (see the interjection of Jesus in the 6th bowl where He says, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.").

However, Revelation 16:1-6 suggests these souls seen in heaven in Revelation 15 have been killed by the beast before the bowls of wrath are poured out.

The point is: They will rise from the dead, and the 2nd death will have no power over them - but the 2nd death only occurs after the 1st resurrection, which is the resurrection from the 1st death.

It is confusing birth from above by the Spirit of God with the resurrection of the body (the resurrection which comes from spiritual birth into Christ), that causes all this misunderstanding, in my opinion.

They do not have to wait until their bodily resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them. The second death has no power at all over the souls who are in heaven now or over any souls who will be in heaven in the future. This is what you're missing.