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Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

2PhiloVoid

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I agree. But I don't think its a case of total collapse due to Totalitarianism or any other political or ideological worldview. Its also about identifying the different manifestations of that thinking and how it develops, how a society can cultivate such ideas despite them inevitably leading to self destruction. How they decieved themselves into such positions.

Peterson is revealing the thinking behind how this happens so we can then identify it within society. Just as we can identify the mindset of a controller or psychopath but on a societal level. In that sense society as a whole can become deluded and detached from reality. In some ways that is evidenced by the high level of psychological disorders today. In some ways modern society can make people mentally ill.

The problem here is in differentiating the concept of Christian sense of spiritual delusion from the more common political problem of mass psychosis. These are not the same thing and do not necessarily manifest in the same way.

Moreover, one or both of these doesn't need totalitarianism to be present as a catalyst. In fact, in the case of the former, "business as usual" will do the job.
 
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stevevw

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The problem here is in differentiating the concept of Christian sense of spiritual delusion from the more common political problem of mass psychosis. These are not the same thing and do not necessarily manifest in the same way.
But isn't politics or at least the philosophical underpinnings of a political ideology not too disssimilar to religious belief as they are both about a worldview, assumptions and beliefs about how the world is and should be ordered and how people and society should behave.

There are some differences with psychosis as its more clinical but there are varying degrees of delusion. Much has to do with emotion, feelings over reality. Thats why peterson mentions disgust but there is also fear, guilt, shame and agression. The basic cognition is similar in that all delusions are the distortion of normal emotions and cognitions. Usually anxiety based where things are made worse or percieved as far worse than it really is.

Peoples perceptions of the world become distorted as a result and they form their beliefs on this distorted view of the world, other others and themselves. There are usually 4 core beliefs behind delusional and irrational thinking Demandingness, Frustration Intolerance, Awefulising and Self Downing. So there is a psychological basis for unreal thinking and beliefs even if thats about religious beliefs as we know with radical religious groups.

I think determining the differences is only a matter of how the deluded thinking is applied whether thats religious belief, a political ideology like Marxism or a belief in some cult or idea about how we should live life. Many of these ideas have a spiritual aspect except its based in some other metaphysics like mother nature, humanism, tech or some other constructed ideology about the world.
Moreover, one or both of these doesn't need totalitarianism to be present as a catalyst. In fact, in the case of the former, "business as usual" will do the job.
No but you would hope at least that Christianity would not lead to Totalitarianism. I don't think so. I mean the church became pretty controlling but I think thats when it became more political than spiritual. But Christian spirituality would be the antithesis of Totalitarianism.

I think its when we stray away from Gods order that we risk diverging down a path of human contructed ideas about reality and how to order relationships and society. If God is what maintains order and reality then obviously like the Isrealites when they strayed from God began to worship false idols so it is with modern society.

Primarily humans believe in the almighty power of humans and as humans a fallible creatures we are bound to believe in our own bull**** and pay for it later. I think as we have rejected God in recent decades from the public square we are now more volnuraable to agendas and ideologies and self delusion.

The strange thing though is it seems that its not just a rejection of God but a rejection of objective reality. I think this is due to Post Modernist influence which fits in with identity politics in that its about self referential reality rather than objective reality. THis makes a perfect storm for delusional thinking and why we are seeing this grow in society.
 
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BCP1928

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I think its when we stray away from Gods order that we risk diverging down a path of human contructed ideas about reality and how to order relationships and society. If God is what maintains order and reality then obviously like the Isrealites when they strayed from God began to worship false idols so it is with modern society.
Who's to say what God's order actually is?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Thats because he often thinks on his feet which I think is a good quality as your not being contrived. He is thinking out loud and if you follow that thinking makes sense to the point he makes. He is not just giving you the answer but telling you how we get to that answer.

You will notice he corrects himself as he 'makes things more precise'. That takes thinking things through which is exactly what Peterson we known for.

He's an insufferable rambler, a winder of circles. I give up on him long before he "make things more precise".
 
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stevevw

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Who's to say what God's order actually is?
Well its in the Bible for one. But if God is the Creator then God is the God of nature and reality itself. So we can look to nature for how humans are ordered and we can look to the natural behaviours in humans and lived reality. In a way science reveals Gods order.
 
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stevevw

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But they aren't social contagions.
Why, they are behaviours or thinking that is 'caught; so to speak like a cold. They rub off on others and people copy the behaviour for not rational reason. Usually its psychologically based even it theres physical manifestations. But its the mindset, the psyche that is distorted which percieves the world and reality in unreal ways. Theres an underlying psychological problem/s that are driving this.
 
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stevevw

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He's an insufferable rambler, a winder of circles. I give up on him long before he "make things more precise".
That how you see him but many others completely disagree. I guess there all insufferable too.
 
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BCP1928

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Well its in the Bible for one.
Not very useful. The Bible is just one of many books which describe an alleged "divine order."
But if God is the Creator then God is the God of nature and reality itself. So we can look to nature for how humans are ordered and we can look to the natural behaviours in humans and lived reality. In a way science reveals Gods order.
Yes, and in reality there really are trans people, really are gay people, part of the natural behaviors in humans.
 
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BCP1928

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Why, they are behaviours or thinking that is 'caught; so to speak like a cold. They rub off on others and people copy the behaviour for not rational reason. Usually its psychologically based even it theres physical manifestations. But its the mindset, the psyche that is distorted which percieves the world and reality in unreal ways. Theres an underlying psychological problem/s that are driving this.
Do you think drag queens can turn kids gay by reading to them?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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But isn't politics or at least the philosophical underpinnings of a political ideology not too disssimilar to religious belief as they are both about a worldview, assumptions and beliefs about how the world is and should be ordered and how people and society should behave.
Not exactly. Not everything is "self-evident." So, you're not really saying much by referring to "philosophical underpinnings" since that is a very ambiguous term where Epistemology, Ethics, and Metaphysics meet.

But I get what you're saying ...
There are some differences with psychosis as its more clinical but there are varying degrees of delusion. Much has to do with emotion, feelings over reality. Thats why peterson mentions disgust but there is also fear, guilt, shame and agression. The basic cognition is similar in that all delusions are the distortion of normal emotions and cognitions. Usually anxiety based where things are made worse or percieved as far worse than it really is.

Peoples perceptions of the world become distorted as a result and they form their beliefs on this distorted view of the world, other others and themselves. There are usually 4 core beliefs behind delusional and irrational thinking Demandingness, Frustration Intolerance, Awefulising and Self Downing. So there is a psychological basis for unreal thinking and beliefs even if thats about religious beliefs as we know with radical religious groups.

I think determining the differences is only a matter of how the deluded thinking is applied whether thats religious belief, a political ideology like Marxism or a belief in some cult or idea about how we should live life. Many of these ideas have a spiritual aspect except its based in some other metaphysics like mother nature, humanism, tech or some other constructed ideology about the world.

No but you would hope at least that Christianity would not lead to Totalitarianism. I don't think so. I mean the church became pretty controlling but I think thats when it became more political than spiritual. But Christian spirituality would be the antithesis of Totalitarianism.

I think its when we stray away from Gods order that we risk diverging down a path of human contructed ideas about reality and how to order relationships and society. If God is what maintains order and reality then obviously like the Isrealites when they strayed from God began to worship false idols so it is with modern society.

Primarily humans believe in the almighty power of humans and as humans a fallible creatures we are bound to believe in our own bull**** and pay for it later. I think as we have rejected God in recent decades from the public square we are now more volnuraable to agendas and ideologies and self delusion.

The strange thing though is it seems that its not just a rejection of God but a rejection of objective reality. I think this is due to Post Modernist influence which fits in with identity politics in that its about self referential reality rather than objective reality. THis makes a perfect storm for delusional thinking and why we are seeing this grow in society.

Here too, I agree with some of what you're saying, but I wouldn't say that where epistemological concerns are prevalent that the "rejection" is in all cases a rejection of "objective reality." There's just too many ambiguous variables in that sort of articulation to be a much service in describing what really going on.

However, unlike Bart Ehrman, I don't throw the book of Revelation out the window simply because it doesn't tidy up to today's assumptions and ideals about Ethics or Human Rights.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you think drag queens can turn kids gay by reading to them?

No, not any more than Sunday Bible school teachers turn kids into Christians by reading to them.
 
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stevevw

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Not very useful. The Bible is just one of many books which describe an alleged "divine order."
But there is no book like the Bible in how it accounts for that order and not just divine or but reality.
Yes, and in reality there really are trans people, really are gay people, part of the natural behaviors in humans.
Yes but that doesn't mean it was Gods order. Humans and nature can become disordered. Trans is not part of natural human behaviour, Humans are not designed to have a different identity to their physical sex reality. Its conflicting with how the body is meant to be.

Humans have reproductive systems that enable us to continue to procreate and survive. Often what we find with those who experience gender incongruence is a mismatch between physical development and brain sex hormones. They are seperate areas of development and due to various reasons they misalign from what is the normal deveopmental trajectory.

Otherwise there is often an underlying psychological problem/s where some reject their bodies and not just Trans but also other forms of Body Dysmorphism. Or Autism and other psychological issues which once address the person often realigns with their nate gender.

There are only two genders related to sex biologically. What is known as Intersex is not about gender but physical anomelies related to the development of normal physical sex. As well as variations in genitals, homones and chromosomes there are other complications that are comorbid which shows its not a normal human variant but that something happened during normal development.

Pretending that it is would be like saying other anomelies in development are normal variations of humans.
 
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stevevw

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Do you think drag queens can turn kids gay by reading to them?
No but I think adult males acting sexually inappropriately in front of kids will harm them. DRag Queens come under a different category from Trans and gender incongruence. Often the male identifies as male but not always and enjoys dressing the opposite sex. In fact many have been diagnosed as Autogynephilic. They are turned on by seeing themselves dressed as women.

The idea that allowing older males to get turned on in front of kids as some sort of progressive idea that is going to create some DEI Utopia is frankly weird and dangerous.
 
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BCP1928

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But there is no book like the Bible in how it accounts for that order and not just divine or but reality.
There are actually quite a few which purport to do that. That we prefer the Bible is a matter of faith, not objective superiority.
Yes but that doesn't mean it was Gods order. Humans and nature can become disordered. Trans is not part of natural human behaviour, Humans are not designed to have a different identity to their physical sex reality. Its conflicting with how the body is meant to be.
That is nothing but your opinion. You believe that there is only one set of mental states, traits and behaviors linked to each set of gonads and that anything else is "wrong.".
Humans have reproductive systems that enable us to continue to procreate and survive. Often what we find with those who experience gender incongruence is a mismatch between physical development and brain sex hormones. They are seperate areas of development and due to various reasons they misalign from what is the normal deveopmental trajectory.

Otherwise there is often an underlying psychological problem/s where some reject their bodies and not just Trans but also other forms of Body Dysmorphism. Or Autism and other psychological issues which once address the person often realigns with their nate gender.

There are only two genders related to sex biologically. What is known as Intersex is not about gender but physical anomelies related to the development of normal physical sex. As well as variations in genitals, homones and chromosomes there are other complications that are comorbid which shows its not a normal human variant but that something happened during normal development.

Pretending that it is would be like saying other anomelies in development are normal variations of humans.
Whether they are normal variations or not can be argued, but evidently you think that in either case we are not to tolerate them.
 
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BCP1928

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No but I think adult males acting sexually inappropriately in front of kids will harm them.
How? By gender nonconformity in dress?
The idea that allowing older males to get turned on in front of kids as some sort of progressive idea that is going to create some DEI Utopia is frankly weird and dangerous.
You think drag queens read to kids because it arouses them sexually? That you are willing to entertain such a fantasy should be disturbing to you
 
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Hans Blaster

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Why, they are behaviours or thinking that is 'caught; so to speak like a cold. They rub off on others and people copy the behaviour for not rational reason. Usually its psychologically based even it theres physical manifestations. But its the mindset, the psyche that is distorted which percieves the world and reality in unreal ways. Theres an underlying psychological problem/s that are driving this.

No, you can't "catch the gay" (or "the trans"). These are not social contagions.
 
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Hans Blaster

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That how you see him but many others completely disagree.
That he rambles and talks in circles? It's hard to watch his content and think he is concise and straightforward speaker. (And don't blame this on his status as "an academic". I know a lot of "academics" and the vast majority are far more concise and straightforward in their words than Peterson.)

I can think of no better example of this than the repeated, multi-minute failures to answer the simple question: "Do you believe in god?" that occurred in many a debate or conversation when he was taking what is usually the "pro-god" side. It was like he was scared to say "yes" or "I'm not sure" or even "no" (but given the response, "no" seemed unlikely). I think he was trying to "politician" his biggest fans because his "divine beliefs" were a bit unorthodox all while praising the virtues of traditional religion.

I'd like to see those who think his speaking style isn't rambling.

I guess there all insufferable too.
Do they ramble? iI so, they might also be insufferable, but it would be a mistake to assume so. You do know I wasn't referring to the content (such that it is) of his talks when I called him insufferable, but to his style, right?
 
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stevevw

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Not exactly. Not everything is "self-evident." So, you're not really saying much by referring to "philosophical underpinnings" since that is a very ambiguous term where Epistemology, Ethics, and Metaphysics meet.

But I get what you're saying ...
Yeah maybe I have bitten off more than I can chew with this thread. But still it interests me as to understand how humans and society devolve. How belief and cognitions and social norms change and how this is reflected in todays society and even on a world stage. Cerainly culture has changed but is it for the good or bad, for benefit or destruction..
Here too, I agree with some of what you're saying, but I wouldn't say that where epistemological concerns are prevalent that the "rejection" is in all cases a rejection of "objective reality." There's just too many ambiguous variables in that sort of articulation to be a much service in describing what really going on.
Yes and that is partly why I guess I created this thread to investigate and understand. I think objective reality plays an important part. Not that its the only reality we can knowbut that it is the determining factor for exposing that which is irrational. Because as you say there are ambiguos variables its but a small step for humans to believe in unreal ideas. So objective reality helps us at least avoid much of the chaos as we are rational creatures as well.

I think any epistemology should at least fundementally align with objective reality and logic even if that involves values and ethics and our lived reality. We see this in the many debates about how we should apply morals practically.

But as is the nature of belief people can believe ideas despite the evidence and objective reality. That is why I think ultimately belief, experience and objective reality should converge towards the truth.
However, unlike Bart Ehrman, I don't throw the book of Revelation out the window simply because it doesn't tidy up to today's assumptions and ideals about Ethics or Human Rights.
No, well it all should be considered. There are many ways of knowing reality and the truth about what is going on for this bunch of humans of this rock out in space. I don't think we should say this or that way of knowing is exclusive or the only truth.

The greatest source of true knowledge is our experience, human experience and our history which seems to be dominant in belief beyond ourselves and the more transcendent aspects of reality whether that be the ancient Monks, Indigneous knowledge or the JUdeo Christian understanding of the world its all part of our history that will tell us about ourselves humans.

So I think its wrong to just dismiss all that history as myth, fables of a more backward time and now we are so much more wise and together. In fact I think the key to our survival, to living together has already been played out over and over again through our lived experiences. This is the best source of knowledge and truth.
 
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