Is MJ an intermediary step?

fremen

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Hello all, :wave:
I have a question to ask, but I hope it won't come across as offensive because my intention is only to understand. I've noticed that several, if not most, here that bear the Magen David icon used to be Messianics. I have some Messianic acquaintances (not many) that also tell me that they have often seen people from their groups convert to Judaism. So I began wondering about one thing: Could it be that MJ functions as an intermediary step for Christians who are in the process of de-converting from Christianity?

What I find curious is that it seems to me that the original intention was the opposite: To provide something in-between for Jews who converted to Christianity. How come in actuality it becomes the latter? What is also interesting is that Judaism isn't a religion that seeks out converts.

Just wondering about this...

Kol tov,
Fremen
 

visionary

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In drawing closer to Adonai may have dug deeper into the roots and in order to do so, have become God fearers of the Judaism faith. It is like a pendulum swing, far to the right and far to the left. It is all within the faith in the Holy One of Israel as the one true God, but personally, I believe a little too far from the centerness in Yeshua which I believe is the balance that God requires.

God in His wisdom has opened the door for this return to occur. Many have found Jewish blood and thus have a more personal reason for returning. I believe that after a full immersion into the roots of Judaism, those that have come from here to there will be the catalysts for God's next move.

If you also notice, those who have left, have not gone very far. They may spit upon where they have been, but that may come from a defense for why they are where they are now. The amalgamations will continue until the metal has been put through all seven fires. It will be cleansed of all impurities when God is finished, and they will be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

God's Ways are not our ways.
 
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JudaicChristian

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I know the reason, it's because of the errors that are found in Christianity. Remove the errors and the people will return. The lack of cohesion is due to those who divide us, the weeds.
Jude

1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.
7. Just like Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in the same manner, they gave themselves over to fornication, and strange flesh.
8. And they will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, as a set example; as also along with these filthy dreamers who also defile their flesh.
9. They say evil things about dignitaries and despise their dominion; they say evil things about what they know nothing about.
10. But what they do know naturally like brute beasts; in those things they have corrupted themselves.
11. Woe to them! They have gone the ways of Cain, and have ran greedily after the errors of Balaam for a reward, and perish like in the rebellion of Korah.
12. They are blemishes at your devotions, without fear they eat with you, only to feed themselves; They are clouds without rain, carried about by winds; pulled up by the roots they are trees whose fruit has withered before harvest, twice dead;
13. Like raging waves of the sea, whose foam is to their own shame; they are wandering stars, for whom is reserved the blackest of darkness forever.
14. And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about them, saying, look, the Lord is coming with tens of thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon them, and to convince all of the ungodly among them of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed, and all of their hard words spoken by the ungodly sinners who have spoken against Him.
16. These complainers are grumblers walking after their own lusts; and their mouths speak with great words of pride, having the admiration of men because of some personal advantage.
17. Loved, do you remember the words which were spoken of before; by the disciples of our lord Yahshua the Messiah?
18. How they told you there would come mockers in the last days, and how they would walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19. Not having the Spirit; these are the people who divide you by their lust.
20. But your love builds you up in your most holy faith, praying to the Holy Spirit,
21. Keep yourselves as Yahwah's devoted, looking for mercy from our lord Yahshua the Messiah for eternal life.
22. Make a difference and have compassion.
23. Save others without fear, by pulling them from the fire; hate even the cloths stained by the flesh.
24. He is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before his present glory with great joy.
25. And to the only wise God and Savior, be glory, majesty, dominion and power: To both now, and forever. Truly.
 
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Heber

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Simple answer to the OP - an imbalance in teaching is the cause of extreme action and the polarisation of views.

It should be that MJism will increase as Judaism and Christianity decrease - it was never, in its original concept, a bridge or path to anything. Its conception was grounded in it being the natural result of drawing both 'sides' into the one new Body (Romans 9-11) where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free etc etc. It was meant to replace its erroneous siblings, not to be channel for swapping sdes, however well intentioned that might be, by some.
 
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JudaicChristian

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Simple answer to the OP - an imbalance in teaching is the cause of extreme action and the polarisation of views.

It should be that MJism will increase as Judaism and Christianity decrease - it was never, in its original concept, a bridge or path to anything. Its conception was grounded in it being the natural result of drawing both 'sides' into the one new Body (Romans 9-11) where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free etc etc. It was meant to replace its erroneous siblings, not to be channel for swapping sdes, however well intentioned that might be, by some.

The people run here and there searching for the truth and leadership. MJism is the middle ground between Christianity and Orthodox Judaism. There would not be all of this confusion if not for the weeds. So what can I say to make things better? Truth is made known by the reason of the facts! And yet most do not know the difference between an opinion and a fact, translation or interpretation.:doh:
 
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Heber

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The people run here and there searching for the truth and leadership. MJism is the middle ground between Christianity and Orthodox Judaism. There would not be all of this confusion if not for the weeds. So what can I say to make things better? Truth is made known by the reason of the facts! And yet most do not know the difference between an opinion and a fact, translation or interpretation.:doh:


You can say, or do, nothing except that which G_d tells you to say or do. MJism is incredibly short of trained leaders - that is the root of the problem, as has come up on other posts. Whilst people flock to untrained leaders this will always be a problem. It needs not just training in Judaism and Christianity, at least to the level of a trained Lay Preacher (probably a Diploma in both), but also pastoral care, leadership, worship leading etc etc etc. Many MJism leaders have learned a bit from books - been to few conferences and think that, overnight, they are an expert on MJism. Many of the leaders are also those who have been hurt by the Church and so are exceedingly anti-Christianity (because that is what 'the Church' teaches). Therefore these leaders will give far greater emphasis to Judaism! Some, on the other hand, teach more about Christianity than Judaism! As I said, unbalanced teaching produces extreme actions.
 
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Kris10leigh

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Hello all, :wave:
I have a question to ask, but I hope it won't come across as offensive because my intention is only to understand. I've noticed that several, if not most, here that bear the Magen David icon used to be Messianics. I have some Messianic acquaintances (not many) that also tell me that they have often seen people from their groups convert to Judaism. So I began wondering about one thing: Could it be that MJ functions as an intermediary step for Christians who are in the process of de-converting from Christianity?

What I find curious is that it seems to me that the original intention was the opposite: To provide something in-between for Jews who converted to Christianity. How come in actuality it becomes the latter? What is also interesting is that Judaism isn't a religion that seeks out converts.

Just wondering about this...

Kol tov,
Fremen

All I can tell you is from personal experience and that is to say I studied myself right out of Christianity. That wasn't my intention. I have never believed quite as everyone else did and was in search of like-minded people. I thought I'd found it in the MJ movement but soon found it wasn't so.

However, I hope I do not ever grow bitter toward Jesus. I don't know if it's particularly usual for Jews to embrace some of Jesus' teachings, but I still do. I simply believe his purpose was different than what Christianity teaches.
 
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Heber

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All I can tell you is from personal experience and that is to say I studied myself right out of Christianity. That wasn't my intention. I have never believed quite as everyone else did and was in search of like-minded people. I thought I'd found it in the MJ movement but soon found it wasn't so.

However, I hope I do not ever grow bitter toward Jesus. I don't know if it's particularly usual for Jews to embrace some of Jesus' teachings, but I still do. I simply believe his purpose was different than what Christianity teaches.

...and then there are those like Khris who do it all a different way. I have no problem with that route. My problem is with untrained Messianic 'leaders' who feed people with rubbish - and those who go and listen to the rubbish because they cannot discern that that's all it is! If we are to become a major player between Synagogue and Church we need to decide a) what does a Messianic Believer have to believe b) What does a Messianic Believer have to do in regard to the Law. These things will, I am sure, soon come about from those who are getting together a systematic Messianic Theology.
 
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SGM4HIM

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O.P. "Could it be that MJ functions as an intermediary step for Christians who are in the process of de-converting from Christianity?"

The vast majority of MJ's still maintain a belief in Yeshua. And according to most statement of beliefs posted on the internet by MJ assemblies, their goals also are in line with this.
 
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visionary

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Judaism wouldn't still exist if it didn't hold a powerful attraction.... expecially considering the persecution that follows in its footsteps. Christianity follows the story and picks up where scripture leaves off and just takes the Messiah as the most important piece. Those of us who have followed the historical trail can see Yeshua throughout human history including that which founded Judaism and Christianity. MJ does not see an either or situation but a bit of both... and are attempting to dust off the traditions, rituals, and breath life back into the intent and purpose of God. .. Just in time for His return.
 
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JudaicChristian

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Judaism wouldn't still exist if it didn't hold a powerful attraction.... expecially considering the persecution that follows in its footsteps. Christianity follows the story and picks up where scripture leaves off and just takes the Messiah as the most important piece. Those of us who have followed the historical trail can see Yeshua throughout human history including that which founded Judaism and Christianity. MJ does not see an either or situation but a bit of both... and are attempting to dust off the traditions, rituals, and breath life back into the intent and purpose of God. .. Just in time for His return.

Yes, but before the Two Witnesses comes the Seven Thunders. And they are no where to be found.

Zechariah 3:8
Listen, O high priest [of] Joshua [Yahshua] and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come:

Mark 3:17
James son of Zebedee and his brother John to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder...

Revelation 1:19.
"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampsticks is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven congregations, and the seven lampsticks are the seven congregations.

Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lampsticks were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 10:3
and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke.

Revelation 10:4
And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."

Revelation 19:6
Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
 
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ChavaK

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All I can tell you is from personal experience and that is to say I studied myself right out of Christianity. That wasn't my intention.
I think you hit the nail on the head- this is what I have heard from
ex-Messianics who ended up converting to Judaism.

I don't know if it's particularly usual for Jews to embrace some of Jesus' teachings, but I still do. I simply believe his purpose was different than what Christianity teaches.
Yes, it would be unusual...but many of his teachings came from the Tanach
and from our sages, so I guess it would depend on what teachings you
refer to.

What purpose do you think Jesus served?
 
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Kris10leigh

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What purpose do you think Jesus served?

There were religious corrupt leaders of the time, correct? From my limited understanding, I think it's safe to say the people did not a loving God. I believe perhaps Jesus came to tell us simply that...that God is a loving God.
 
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ChavaK

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There were religious corrupt leaders of the time, correct?
Not correct.

From my limited understanding, I think it's safe to say the people did not a loving God.
Also not correct.

I believe perhaps Jesus came to tell us simply that...that God is a loving God.
I don't have an issue with that....but that is not something that
is specific to Jesus.
 
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fremen

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Not correct.

Actually, it is correct. At least her first observation, that is. No matter what your source is concerning the events surrounding the 1st century, religious corruption was a known fact. That transpires whether one reads the Talmud, the NT or even the Dead Sea Scrolls. In fact, that is appointed as one of the reasons why the Beit HaMikdash was destroyed in the first place.

Kol tov,
Fremen
 
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Heber

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Actually, it is correct. At least her first observation, that is. No matter what your source is concerning the events surrounding the 1st century, religious corruption was a known fact. That transpires whether one reads the Talmud, the NT or even the Dead Sea Scrolls. In fact, that is appointed as one of the reasons why the Beit HaMikdash was destroyed in the first place.

Kol tov,
Fremen

Thanks, that saved me saying it!


Re the second point Kris makes - I am not sure that a broad brush denial of her point is valid. There were, undoubtedly, people that fit both categories she mentions, though not necessarily the majority.

I think ChavaK is being a little unfair here, though I agree that study is a lifelong task.
 
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ChavaK

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Actually, it is correct. At least her first observation, that is. No matter what your source is concerning the events surrounding the 1st century, religious corruption was a known fact. That transpires whether one reads the Talmud, the NT or even the Dead Sea Scrolls. In fact, that is appointed as one of the reasons why the Beit HaMikdash was destroyed in the first place.

Kol tov,
Fremen

Jews should not rely upon the NT...which is what I was trying to
hint to Kris..

As to the DSS, why would they mention corruption? Aren't they just
scrolls of the Tanach?

We also need to very specific about what and who we mean by corrruption.
It is my understanding that corruption of the priesthood is mentioned
in the Talmud, but the Sandhedrin and Sages are not considered
corrupt...and to me those are the religous authorities, not the kohanim.
 
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