MJ Only Back on the MJ wagon

[tampasteve]

Trust me, I am aware that I bounce around the different congregation and denominational forums. However, MJ always seems to call me back. What most people here may not realize is that I am not just a follower of Yeshua, I actually did convert to Judaism at one time, so the Messianic stream of Judaism holds a special place in my heart. Judaism brought be back from the wilderness of unbelief, and Messianic Judaism brought be back to Yeshua. With the High Holidays approaching it seems prudent to proceed back on this journey. I still struggle with the disunity of MJ, but that is what it is.

 

[daq]

Trust me, I am aware that I bounce around the different congregation and denominational forums. However, MJ always seems to call me back. What most people here may not realize is that I am not just a follower of Yeshua, I actually did convert to Judaism at one time, so the Messianic stream of Judaism holds a special place in my heart. Judaism brought be back from the wilderness of unbelief, and Messianic Judaism brought be back to Yeshua. With the High Holy Days approaching it seems prudent to proceed back on this journey. I still struggle with the disunity of MJ, but that is what it is.

Welcome back, Steve, we didn't talk much before but I remember you.

 

[JohnD70X7]

The disunity of MJ in the world at large is IMHO that it is misunderstood.

Messianic Judaism / New Covenant Judaism (Israelism) is what HaShem intended for the Jewish people (Israelis):

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This covenant like all covenants (except the Abrahamic covenant which was unconditional and only on the part of the LORD) must be freely entered into by choice. And the opposition to the New Covenant (and specifically Yeshua the New Covenant Bearer) comes from the satanic infiltration into the ranks of Old Covenant leadership (Matthew 23) who misused the Torah to discourage / lead the people away from Moshiakh Nagiyd.

That's point number 1.

Point number 2. is many Jews and Gentiles who subscribe to MJism believe it is the Jewish thing to do to mimic the Jewish people (who have spent by and large the past 1900+ years being not-the Christians). I am thinking of an example the wearing of the yarmulke when the Apostle Paul said to pray with heads uncovered... the emphasis on covering the head in Judaism of a formerly minor practice instigated by the way Moshe covered his head when the glory of HaShem from his being in His presence... began to fade away. But now since the apostate Shaul b'Tarshish says pray with head uncovered... we in Judaism insist on covered heads...

In MJ many disbelieve Yeshua was G-d incarnate. In Christian circles, this would be a major problem and source of disfellowship. But in MJism, just their belief in a yeshua is all that matters to most. But the Bible is clear we must believe in the Yeshua G-d sent (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 / Galatians 1:8-9). And the Yeshua is G-d the Word (John 1:1-2) incarnate (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5) Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24) in the presence of the Father (1 John 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1-2).

Finally, the disunity in the Body of Messiah (Christianity / Messianic Judaism) is from too much tradition of man (Mark 7:7 / Mark 7:13 / Matthew 16:23 / John 8:42-45) interfering with the tutelage and leadership of Ruach HaKodesh (2 Peter 1:20-21 / John 16:13) to whom we should give absolute abject sway over the Kingdom of G-d (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:9-13).

The Keys to the Kingdom:

• 2 Peter 1:20-21
• 1 John 4:1
• Acts 17:11
• Proverbs 25:2
• Isaiah 28:9-13

Only then will we all in Yeshua achieve the oneness He Himself prayed for in John 17 (3 times) that we be one like the Father and He are one.

 

[truefiction1]

Trust me, I am aware that I bounce around the different congregation and denominational forums. However, MJ always seems to call me back. What most people here may not realize is that I am not just a follower of Yeshua, I actually did convert to Judaism at one time, so the Messianic stream of Judaism holds a special place in my heart. Judaism brought be back from the wilderness of unbelief, and Messianic Judaism brought be back to Yeshua. With the High Holidays approaching it seems prudent to proceed back on this journey. I still struggle with the disunity of MJ, but that is what it is.

I've been informed that at the time of Christ's ministry there was not a single Judaism, but various "Judaisms". If this is the case, an I believe it is, then a disunity in MJ should come as no surprise. Even Judaism of today is separated into at least three distinct flavors, I've also been informed. But I wonder, how does anyone who confesses Jesus of Nazareth to be the Christ (Messiah) rightly considering themselves to be within Judaism, when the Judaist Talmud, I've been informed, teaches that anyone confessing Him to be the Messiah is no longer rightly called a Jew, because to confess Christ is to renounce Talmud and Judaism? Are you aware that Jews immediately excommunicate you from their community if you believe Jesus Christ? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tampasteve]

I've been informed that at the time of Christ's ministry there was not a single Judaism, but various "Judaisms".

Correct, and second temple Judaism is not exactly like the Judaism we have now. Broadly they were the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and other small streams.

If this is the case, an I believe it is, then a disunity in MJ should come as no surprise.

Valid point. The main issue in MJ is that there are tons of differing views on foundational doctrines. I have made my peace with that though, it is actually an issue in pretty much all religions to one degree or another.

Even Judaism of today is separated into at least three distinct flavors, I've also been informed.

In the USA, yes, broadly Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. But there are also smaller streams such as Reconstruction, Humanist, etc. and globally the Karaites.

But I wonder, how does anyone who confesses Jesus of Nazareth to be the Christ (Messiah) rightly considering themselves to be within Judaism, when the Judaist Talmud, I've been informed, teaches that anyone confessing Him to be the Messiah is no longer rightly called a Jew, because to confess Christ is to renounce Talmud and Judaism?
Are you aware that Jews immediately excommunicate you from their community if you believe Jesus Christ? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Apostate Jews are still Jews, just "bad" ones. Being an ethno-religion you can't just fully excommunicate someone like you can with Christian many denominations. So, even Yeshua believing Jews are still Jews, even if they are not part of the community. That said, 1st, not all Jews follow the Talmud, and 2nd those that do may not hold it to the standard that most Christian believe. Karaites don't follow Rabbinic Oral Law. Liberal streams interpret it differently, if they follow it at all.

Messianic Judaism is a stream of Judaism that does include a fair amount of Rabbinic Teachings, but that should not be surprising as even the Bible has some pretty explicate scenes of Jewish Midrash and Law discussion in the New Testament (and of course the "Old"). The main difference is we interpret those teachings in light of Yeshua, tossing the ones that are in opposition, such as the teachings you mention. But it should be noted that even within mainstream Rabbinic Judaism most teachings have more than one interpretation, it is not completely monolithic or set in stone.

Lastly, gentile followers are not Jewish just by confessing a attachment to Messianic Judaism, they are still Gentiles. As such applicable Law for them would not be the same.

 

[Laureate]

The disunity of MJ in the world at large is IMHO that it is misunderstood.

Messianic Judaism / New Covenant Judaism (Israelism) is what HaShem intended for the Jewish people (Israelis):

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This covenant like all covenants (except the Abrahamic covenant which was unconditional and only on the part of the LORD) must be freely entered into by choice. And the opposition to the New Covenant (and specifically Yeshua the New Covenant Bearer) comes from the satanic infiltration into the ranks of Old Covenant leadership (Matthew 23) who misused the Torah to discourage / lead the people away from Moshiakh Nagiyd.

That's point number 1.

Point number 2. is many Jews and Gentiles who subscribe to MJism believe it is the Jewish thing to do to mimic the Jewish people (who have spent by and large the past 1900+ years being not-the Christians). I am thinking of an example the wearing of the yarmulke when the Apostle Paul said to pray with heads uncovered... the emphasis on covering the head in Judaism of a formerly minor practice instigated by the way Moshe covered his head when the glory of HaShem from his being in His presence... began to fade away. But now since the apostate Shaul b'Tarshish says pray with head uncovered... we in Judaism insist on covered heads...

In MJ many disbelieve Yeshua was G-d incarnate. In Christian circles, this would be a major problem and source of disfellowship. But in MJism, just their belief in a yeshua is all that matters to most. But the Bible is clear we must believe in the Yeshua G-d sent (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 / Galatians 1:8-9). And the Yeshua is G-d the Word (John 1:1-2) incarnate (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5) Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24) in the presence of the Father (1 John 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1-2).

Finally, the disunity in the Body of Messiah (Christianity / Messianic Judaism) is from too much tradition of man (Mark 7:7 / Mark 7:13 / Matthew 16:23 / John 8:42-45) interfering with the tutelage and leadership of Ruach HaKodesh (2 Peter 1:20-21 / John 16:13) to whom we should give absolute abject sway over the Kingdom of G-d (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:9-13).

The Keys to the Kingdom:

• 2 Peter 1:20-21
• 1 John 4:1
• Acts 17:11
• Proverbs 25:2
• Isaiah 28:9-13

Only then will we all in Yeshua achieve the oneness He Himself prayed for in John 17 (3 times) that we be one like the Father and He are one.

Well put, though there is much more to be said concerning the Keys of the Kingdom.

 

[Laureate]

I've been informed that at the time of Christ's ministry there was not a single Judaism, but various "Judaisms". If this is the case, an I believe it is, then a disunity in MJ should come as no surprise. Even Judaism of today is separated into at least three distinct flavors, I've also been informed. But I wonder, how does anyone who confesses Jesus of Nazareth to be the Christ (Messiah) rightly considering themselves to be within Judaism, when the Judaist Talmud, I've been informed, teaches that anyone confessing Him to be the Messiah is no longer rightly called a Jew, because to confess Christ is to renounce Talmud and Judaism? Are you aware that Jews immediately excommunicate you from their community if you believe Jesus Christ? Correct me if I'm wrong.

When I was beckoned to my station (back in 1989) and was bathing my intellect with an interlinear, lexicons, concordance and dictionary, I also picked up a paper back copy of Judaism for Dummies, and though it was vain on my behalf, I could not resist, the book had my name written all over it, I figured, someone took the time to write a book especially for me, least I can do is read it.

One of the most notable things (that I retain to this day) which it conveyed, is that, No two Jews Agree (completely).

What you related about the synagogue attempts to excommunicate and declare Messianic Jews which confessed Yeshuah was H’meshiakh, yet that is why Rev. 2:8-11 and Rev. 3:7-13 touches on such matters, or who else do you suppose these two congregations correlate to in this generation?

 

[Laureate]

Correct, and second temple Judaism is not exactly like the Judaism we have now. Broadly they were the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and other small streams.

Valid point. The main issue in MJ is that there are tons of differing views on foundational doctrines. I have made my peace with that though, it is actually an issue in pretty much all religions to one degree or another.

In the USA, yes, broadly Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. But there are also smaller streams such as Reconstruction, Humanist, etc. and globally the Karaites.

Apostate Jews are still Jews, just "bad" ones. Being an ethno-religion you can't just fully excommunicate someone like you can with Christian many denominations. So, even Yeshua believing Jews are still Jews, even if they are not part of the community. That said, 1st, not all Jews follow the Talmud, and 2nd those that do may not hold it to the standard that most Christian believe. Karaites don't follow Rabbinic Oral Law. Liberal streams interpret it differently, if they follow it at all.

Messianic Judaism is a stream of Judaism that does include a fair amount of Rabbinic Teachings, but that should not be surprising as even the Bible has some pretty explicate scenes of Jewish Midrash and Law discussion in the New Testament (and of course the "Old"). The main difference is we interpret those teachings in light of Yeshua, tossing the ones that are in opposition, such as the teachings you mention. But it should be noted that even within mainstream Rabbinic Judaism most teachings have more than one interpretation, it is not completely monolithic or set in stone.

Lastly, gentile followers are not Jewish just by confessing a attachment to Messianic Judaism, they are still Gentiles. As such applicable Law for them would not be the same.

Pretty much agree to everything you shared here, but that very last paragraph, though it is true, a Gentile that is a believer of the Hebrew texts, yet retains their stance as a Gentile, they are as you say, not Jewish, however those which submit themselves to comply with the dictates of the Torah and relinquish their Goiyem ways, they are Hebrew עברי Converts, and are no longer Gentiles, in spirit they stand among the Congregation of יהוה as noted in the Torah, One People, One Law.

However as noted elsewhere in this thread, no two Jews see eye to eye completely, nevertheless we do look forward to the fulfillment of Zephaniah 3 a Pure Language, that we all may Call on his name with One Consent.

 

[truefiction1]

When I was beckoned to my station (back in 1989) and was bathing my intellect with an interlinear, lexicons, concordance and dictionary, I also picked up a paper back copy of Judaism for Dummies, and though it was vain on my behalf, I could not resist, the book had my name written all over it, I figured, someone took the time to write a book especially for me, least I can do is read it.

One of the most notable things (that I retain to this day) which it conveyed, is that, No two Jews Agree (completely).

What you related about the synagogue attempts to excommunicate and declare Messianic Jews which confessed Yeshuah was H’meshiakh, yet that is why Rev. 2:8-11 and Rev. 3:7-13 touches on such matters, or who else do you suppose these two congregations correlate to in this generation?

Well, since you ask, I suppose that these two congregations correlate throughout every generation since the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation until now, to Jews who rejected Jesus of Nazareth as their awaited Messiah vs. the Church, which consisted of both ethnic Jews and gentiles; both groups in the Church having believed in Jesus Christ as their messiah. The Jews who are "not really Jews, but are the synagogue of Satan" are those who still await their messiah. This messiah will be the one that Christ spoke of when He said to those Jews who were not really Jews: "I come in my father's name and you do not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive" (John 5:43) This was a reference to the Antichrist, or false messiah, whom the Jews that are not really Jews will receive as their king to whom they believe every knee on earth, Jew and gentile, should and will bow. The false messiah will have Satan in Him. Some righteous Jews will realize that this so-called messiah is evil and will refuse to follow him, coming instead at that time to join the Church through their belief in Jesus Christ, and they will be saved for having refused to follow Antichrist. This is what I suppose these two congregations spoken of in those passages of Revelation correlate to.

 

[tampasteve]

however those which submit themselves to comply with the dictates of the Torah and relinquish their Goiyem ways, they are Hebrew עברי Converts, and are no longer Gentiles, in spirit they stand among the Congregation of יהוה as noted in the Torah, One People, One Law.

However, the Torah does not apply to Gentiles in the same manner, even Gentile followers of the Way. As dictated by the Council of Jerusalem, the requirements of the full Torah do not apply, many do - but not all. I disagree that all followers are now "Hebrew", we are still either Jews or Gentiles, if we were all Hebrew now there would not have been a disagreement on whether Gentile followers needed to convert to Judaism.

Acts and the Didache do a good job of explaining what Law the gentile believers are beholden to. Fully understanding that what Acts says in simple terms can and should be extended out. Gentile believers are not required to follow the full Torah, but adopting any of it is also likely admirable and pleasing to G-d.

 

[Laureate]

However, the Torah does not apply to Gentiles in the same manner, even Gentile followers of the Way. As dictated by the Council of Jerusalem, the requirements of the full Torah do not apply, many do - but not all. I disagree that all followers are now "Hebrew", we are still either Jews or Gentiles, if we were all Hebrew now there would not have been a disagreement on whether Gentile followers needed to convert to Judaism.

Acts and the Didache do a good job of explaining what Law the gentile believers are beholden to. Fully understanding that what Acts says in simple terms can and should be extended out. Gentile believers are not required to follow the full Torah, but adopting any of it is also likely admirable and pleasing to G-d.

A compliant child receives instruction from their parent due to their trust and reliance on their parent whose knowledge is greater than their own, an noncompliant child rejects the instruction of their parent due to their self Will, self Reliance and self Righteousness.

1st Samuel 13:10-14 and 1st Samuel 15:2-3 & 15:8-23 illustrates the foolishness and disobedience of an Anointed king which presumes they are Righteous and Compliant when they Clearly are Not, however such Clarity proves to be elusive when one’s (self) trust and reliance detours their compliance with the supreme being.

Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eats that which is leavened, even that Soul shall be Cut Off/Excommunicated from the Congregation of Ishrael, whether they be a Stranger/Foreigner or אזרח (a Bay Laurel tree) Born in the Land.

And Yahuah said to Moshé and Aaron [the Laureate of Ishrael], This is the ordinance of the Passover: there shall NO STRANGER (which maintains their Estrangement) Eat thereof.

When a Stranger/Foreigner that dwells among you, and desires to Keep the Passover of Yahuah, LET (neither COMPEL nor Dissuade) all of their Males to be Circumcised, and then PERMIT (neither Compel nor Dissuade) them come NEAR and KEEP it; and they shall be As אזרח (a Bay Laurel tree) ONE who is BORN in the LAND.: for No One who is Uncircumcised shall (Come Near and Keep, let alone) Eat thereof. [ref., Exodus 12:49]

Are not those who are excommunicated from the Congregation of Ishrael deemed Goiyem?

You shall therefore Keep my Statutes and Judgements, and shall not commit these abominations [of the Goiyem]; neither you nor any Stranger that dwells among you:
[ref., Leviticus 18:26]

The Stranger/Foreigner that dwells among you shall be to you As אזרח [a Bay Laurel tree] Born among you [none of which are deemed Goiy until their fruit proves to be Goiy], and you shall Love them as yourself; for you were Strangers/Foreigners in the land of Egypt [as were your Forefathers Strangers/Foreigners in the land of your Nativity]: I am Yahuah your Alôhâ. [ref., Leviticus 19:34]

You shall have One Manner of Law, as well for the Stranger/Foreigner as for One of your own Country: for I am Yahuah your Alôhâ. [ref., Leviticus 24:22]

Wherefore when a Stranger/Foreigner dwells among you, or whosoever dwells among you throughout your generations, and desires to offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto Yahuah, As you Do, So shall they Do.

There shall be One Ordinance for your Congregation and also One Ordinance for the sojourning Stranger FOREVER throughout your generations, AS you Are, SO shall the Stranger/Foreigner Be before Yahuah.

One Law and One Custom shall be for you and for the Stranger/Foreigner that dwells among you. [ref., Numbers 14-16]

In Exodus 29 Aaron and his Sons are Set Apart and estranged from the entire Congregation of Ishrael (to include Levi and the Levitical priesthood) whom Heaven reckons as being Strangers/Foreigners unto Aaron and his Sons.

Yet carefully note, how a Stranger is not permitted to Eat of the Passover, until he is As אזרח [a Bay Laurel tree], One Born in the Land, at which time he no longer bears the estranged fruit of a stranger.

For a Tree is Reckoned by the (spiritual) Fruit it Bears, not the (carnal) Blood which pours through it’s veins.

Woe unto those which follow the Way of Saul, which presume to keep the ordinances of Yahuah but do not.

The superiority complex of those who say, Come not Near, for I am holier than you, (yet are not of the Aaroni priesthood [which are among the firstborn/Melchesadec order of those which Heaven Calls and Ordains to their office]) they shall receive a reward that no one desires to receive, just as Saul received.

 

[Laureate]

Wait on Yahuah, and Keep his Way, and as [Aaron ‘the Exalted one] he shall Exalt you to inherit the Earth: when the Wicked/Unjust/Inappropriate/Unqualified are Cut off, you shall see [Father Abvraham sitting in the Kingdom]

I have Seen the Wicked in great power, and spreading [propagating] himself like אזרח a Green Bay (Laurel) tree/Native born in the land/(as if he were one who is compliant with the ordinances of Yahuah).

Yet he passed away, and behold, he no longer existed, yea, though I looked for him, yet he could not be found. [ref., Psalm 34-36]