Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[FrauleinElsa]

Tradition has never, disagreed with Scripture. Your interpretation is what is wrong here and somehting even worse?? Historical Context and Translation!!!!

So far Scholars and the Scripture disagree with the translation, it has nothing to do with Tradition it has to do with science and logic!!

I have to go to church and so I will return to give a few examples so that this controvery at least ends in this thread.

Thanks

Santiago

Dude, I sincerely doubt it will ever end. But, it's a nice thought, isn't it? Although just because you disagree with her does not mean she's wrong. Just thought I'd throw that out as a friendly reminder.

 

[WarriorAngel]

couldn't of been cousin, cause they had no word for that back then,...but OH, yes, there is the word..cousin Mary...but brothers of Jesus are cousins?? NO...I think some one is wrong here. Jesus HAD BROTHERS...don't give me the cousin no word for it...GOOD catch sister!! I am glad you pointed that out!

AS I said in the other Marian thread that the term cousin was indeed in use.

However; first cousins were considered brethren.

 

[IamAdopted]

AS I said in the other Marian thread that the term cousin was indeed in use.

However; first cousins were considered brethren.

tee hee okay then..Look at the greek for which the new testement was written...any way off with the Old and on with the new... Still does not give us a reason to believe that Mary is a source of Holiness nor of grace.. She may have been full of grace but she is not the dispencer of Grace for Grace comes from God..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

AS I said in the other Marian thread that the term cousin was indeed in use.

However; first cousins were considered brethren.

mhm. Sorry, I disagree. I believe cousin means cousin and brother brother. It is ok to disagree.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I beg to differ Sir.. Jesus even condemned tradition of men...

Time and time again non Catholics refer to the Churches doctrines and Tradition to be man made.
Is this what you implied?
Why else would you bring this up???

Well, here is my reply to that mistranslation...

The doctrines of the Church, the beliefs of the Church have been passed down by the Apostles because Christ warranted them.

There is a distinct difference between man's traditions [washing hands]
and God's Traditions..
EX; The Chair of Moses, the priesthood, the laws [10 Commandments] and doctrines.

TO refute Tradition of the Apostles because they were men...is just erroneous.

However; who founded the beliefs you stand on?
Who founded your traditions?

You might say you have none...and yet the Liturgy of the Apostles has been kept and HOW we are to celebrate. How they did Mass is recorded...

I have attended non Catholic services and that Tradition is remiss, even absent.

So to me, your traditions have stemmed from 1600 AD and onwards...and they are not at all similar to the Traditions set up by the Apostles at the beginning.

Unless of course you celebrate the Liturgy and Mass as it always was.

Do you deny having tradition?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I worship Jesus in Spirit and in Truth. No other way. You should of felt His presence this morning in church. It was amazing. And the man that was there sharing about what is happening in Hawaii...AMAZING. THAT is what church is all about.

 

[IamAdopted]

Time and time again non Catholics refer to the Churches doctrines and Tradition to be man made.
Is this what you implied?
Why else would you bring this up???

Well, here is my reply to that mistranslation...

The doctrines of the Church, the beliefs of the Church have been passed down by the Apostles because Christ warranted them.

There is a distinct difference between man's traditions [washing hands]
and God's Traditions..
EX; The Chair of Moses, the priesthood, the laws [10 Commandments] and doctrines.

TO refute Tradition of the Apostles because they were men...is just erroneous.

However; who founded the beliefs you stand on?
Who founded your traditions?

You might say you have none...and yet the Liturgy of the Apostles has been kept and HOW we are to celebrate. How they did Mass is recorded...

I have attended non Catholic services and that Tradition is remiss, even absent.

So to me, your traditions have stemmed from 1600 AD and onwards...and they are not at all similar to the Traditions set up by the Apostles at the beginning.

Unless of course you celebrate the Liturgy and Mass as it always was.

Do you deny having tradition?

So you say and I disagree.. Now back to the topic of this thread. You can believe that if you want to. I on the other hand do not..For scripture and the Catholic Catethism or how ever you spell it do not line up.. I don't care how you say they do and how mysterious it is suppose to be. Scripture is truth..

 

[FrauleinElsa]

AS I said in the other Marian thread that the term cousin was indeed in use.

However; first cousins were considered brethren.

Okay bottom line W.A. Not to be confused with wah which is something totally different, lol. Catholics are going to believe what they believe (yourself included), we Protestants are going to believe what we believe and never the twain shall meet. We're not trying to convince you of our beliefs and neither should Catholics. We don't believe that Mary didn't stay a virgin, we believe that Jesus had blood siblings (not sure why the Catholic church has a problem with that one, but okay), we don't believe much of what you guys believe and no matter how many times you try and refute it, that won't change. So, what I really want to know is why do we keep trying to convince each other and just leave it? I mean, surely you must know that just as we can't say anything to change your mind(s) you can't say anything that will change ours. Like I said, can't we just let it alone? Is this really getting us anywhere?

Peace, Love and, Starbucks

 

[Uphill Battle]

yes, it is ambigous... as it is ambigous for me to introduce my brother as just that.... I don't identify if he's my blood brother or not.... purely ambigous!

It seems this has gone unadressed.

exept the precepts of Catholisism are different from rite to rite.

there is no complete unity in the Catholic church either, hence rendering the "you have so may protestant denominations" accusation both moot, and hypocritical.

this too!

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Do you deny having tradition?

Ummm...*tentatively raises hand* I don't belong to a denomination that has traditions. So, no I don't have traditions. Actually I don't even belong to a denomination. Personally, they make me crazy. I can't stand them. It seems to me the only thing denominations do is muddle things up that should be simple. All I need is God and a Bible. But, that's me. I know that's not for everyone.

Peace, Love and, Starbucks

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

It seems this has gone unadressed.

this too!

yep, amazing isn't it?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Ummm...*tentatively raises hand* I don't belong to a denomination that has traditions. So, no I don't have traditions. Actually I don't even belong to a denomination. Personally, they make me crazy. I can't stand them. It seems to me the only thing denominations do is muddle things up that should be simple. All I need is God and a Bible. But, that's me. I know that's not for everyone.

Peace, Love and, Starbucks

so you don't fellowship with other believers in a corprate setting? that isn't scriptural either. Hebrews says to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Okay bottom line W.A. Not to be confused with wah which is something totally different, lol. Catholics are going to believe what they believe (yourself included), we Protestants are going to believe what we believe and never the twain shall meet. .........................
Peace, Love and, Starbucks

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael [Daniel 12] and his messengers fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his messengers fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place/ topoV <5117> found for them in heaven any longer.

 

[IamAdopted]

It seems this has gone unadressed.

this too!

Why would I adress my cousin as my brother? For this would be a lie.. I address my cousin and my cousin and my brother as my brother.. Also where they have different rites.. Just a twist of words.. Like they don't believe in divorce but they can have anullments.. So go figure... Makes no sense...

 

[FrauleinElsa]

so you don't fellowship with other believers in a corprate setting? that isn't scriptural either. Hebrews says to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together.

Huh? Of course I go to church. I don't count that as tradition tho. Neither do I count Baptism and Communion. Tradition, to me is something else. Things like if Mary died a virgin and all that. Granted, I haven't found a church yet. But I'm still looking for one. So, don't worry I do go to church. Thank you for your concern.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael [Daniel 12] and his messengers fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his messengers fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place/ topoV <5117> found for them in heaven any longer.

Huh? I'm sorry, but what are you trying to say? I'm confused.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Like they don't believe in divorce but they can have anullments.. So go figure... Makes no sense...

Lol

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Huh? I'm sorry, but what are you trying to say? I'm confused.

Nah. Don't be. I like to quote from Revelation a lot.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be atoned/covered over, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

(Young) Revelation 18:8 because of this, in one day, shall come her Scourges/plhgai <4127>, death, and sorrow, and famine; and in fire she shall be utterly burned, because strong [is] the Lord God who is judging her;

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Nah. Don't be. I like to quote from Revelation a lot.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be atoned/covered over, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

(Young) Revelation 18:8 because of this, in one day, shall come her Scourges/plhgai <4127>, death, and sorrow, and famine; and in fire she shall be utterly burned, because strong [is] the Lord God who is judging her;

Okie dokie. No harm in that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

(Young) Revelation 18:8 because of this, in one day, shall come her Scourges/plhgai <4127>, death, and sorrow, and famine; and in fire she shall be utterly burned, because strong [is] the Lord God who is judging her;

Okie dokie. No harm in that.

I believe if "scourge" would have been used in revelation instead of "plague" like it was in the Hebrew, it may have perhaps been better interpreted. Don't know. Peace.

(Young) Nahum 3:2 The sound of a Whip, And the sound of the rattling of a wheel, And of a prancing horse, and of a bounding chariot, Of a horseman mounting.