Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[FrauleinElsa]

I believe if "scourge" would have been used in revelation instead of "plague" like it was in the Hebrew, it may have perhaps been better interpreted. Don't know. Peace.

(Young) Nahum 3:2 The sound of a Whip, And the sound of the rattling of a wheel, And of a prancing horse, and of a bounding chariot, Of a horseman mounting.

I do know that a lot is lost in the translation from the orriginal Hebrew then Greek into English. Some day I'd love to be able to read the Bible in the orriginal languages it was written in. To get a full feel for what was truly said. I keep feeling like I'm not getting the full picture even with the best translation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do know that a lot is lost in the translation from the orriginal Hebrew then Greek into English. Some day I'd love to be able to read the Bible in the orriginal languages it was written in. To get a full feel for what was truly said. I keep feeling like I'm not getting the full picture even with the best translation.

Hi. I do a lot of word studies in the Greek and Hebrew.
Remember in Exodus how even the Hebrews received the first couple of plagues that hit Egypt. Notice this parable of Jesus concerning believers and being "whipped". Pretty interesting.

Luke 12:4747 `And that servant, who having known his lord's will, and not having prepared, nor having gone according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes, 48 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him.

 

[santiagoamr]

I beg to differ Sir.. Jesus even condemned tradition of men...

Yes but in which context. We have a syaig in spanish that is not religious and it rhimes:

Texto fuera de contexto es puro pretexto. Texta out of context is nothing but pretext.

How do you think that canon was brought to be? through tradition in the early church long before de Trent concilium, Christ followed traditions himself. Traditions by themselves are not wrong. That is what misinterpretation does, makes a mess of things!!!

 

[santiagoamr]

Dude, I sincerely doubt it will ever end. But, it's a nice thought, isn't it? Although just because you disagree with her does not mean she's wrong. Just thought I'd throw that out as a friendly reminder.

True, but there is something that is undeniable, the truth exists and you can get to know it. She may think that my eyes are violet but in truth they are blue and it doesn't have to do anything with point f view but with reality, so two things can be stablished through logic shes either mentally ill for not accepting reality or she does not care about reality and truth, the same goes for me, it just has to be proven.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

True, but there is something that is undeniable, the truth exists and you can get to know it. She may think that my eyes are violet but in truth they are blue and it doesn't have to do anything with point f view but with reality, so two things can be stablished through logic shes either mentally ill for not accepting reality or she does not care about reality and truth, the same goes for me, it just has to be proven.

Mm-hmm. I wonder and please feel free not to answer this because in no way am I trying to bait you into saying something in"flam"itory. I'm just curious. Do you think in your opinion that Protestants are wrong? I mean, don't we all have the right to differing theological points of view? Again, I'm merely asking out of curiosity's sake. I'm far too curious and outspoken. It's one of my worst traits.

 

[Veritas]

I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to reply to my post. I have no desire to debate this and I'm not consumed with the need to convince you that I feel you're wrong. Since you brought it up I will say one thing and leave it at that. During those years that you mentioned the Bible was only available in Latin and was prohibited for the common people to have it in their language. I'll leave it to each individual to ask themself why. But it was only after it became available in other languages that people began to see the fallacy of the teaching of the Catholic church and thus creating the mass exoduses that occured.

This is completely false! Where do you get your "history" from?

 

[Uphill Battle]

yes, it is ambigous... as it is ambigous for me to introduce my brother as just that.... I don't identify if he's my blood brother or not.... purely ambigous!

exept the precepts of Catholisism are different from rite to rite.

there is no complete unity in the Catholic church either, hence rendering the "you have so may protestant denominations" accusation both moot, and hypocritical.

still unadressed.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

This is completely false! Where do you get your "history" from?

Excuse you, but there is no need to shout at me. I will not answer your question. I do not like your tone. Perhaps if you had asked more politely I would be inclined to do so. As it is, I will not. Have a good day, ma'am.

Fraulein Elsa

 

[Veritas]

Mary is NOT the ark of the covenant one more time.. Jesus is the Ark.. We as a body are His temple..

It sounds like you don't know scripture too well.

 

[santiagoamr]

Okay bottom line W.A. Not to be confused with wah which is something totally different, lol. Catholics are going to believe what they believe (yourself included), we Protestants are going to believe what we believe and never the twain shall meet. We're not trying to convince you of our beliefs and neither should Catholics. We don't believe that Mary didn't stay a virgin, we believe that Jesus had blood siblings (not sure why the Catholic church has a problem with that one, but okay), we don't believe much of what you guys believe and no matter how many times you try and refute it, that won't change. So, what I really want to know is why do we keep trying to convince each other and just leave it? I mean, surely you must know that just as we can't say anything to change your mind(s) you can't say anything that will change ours. Like I said, can't we just let it alone? Is this really getting us anywhere?

Peace, Love and, Starbucks

What Luther believed around Marys eve virginity:
"I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." (Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 [1539] )

What Calvin believed:
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3] )

The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (In Pringle, ibid., vol. I, 107; on Matthew 1:25)

What a common translator thinks:
Adelphos- Translation in to english means a brother a sister (adelpha) a kinsman, a blood relative a member of a christian congregation.

What the bible says?? well read it well and think!!! Look at other maries and their sons.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

It sounds like you don't know scripture too well.

That was rude and in my opinion you should apologize. You do not know IAA well enough to make that kind of judgement. Just I would not say that about you.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

What Luther believed around Marys eve virginity:
"I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." (Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 [1539] )

What Calvin believed:
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3] )

The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (In Pringle, ibid., vol. I, 107; on Matthew 1:25)

What a common translator thinks:
Adelphos- Translation in to english means a brother a sister (adelpha) a kinsman, a blood relative a member of a christian congregation.

What the bible says?? well read it well and think!!! Look at other maries and their sons.

I appreciate your views and respect your right to them. However, I do not share them.

 

[Veritas]

All I need is God and a Bible. But, that's me. I know that's not for everyone.

Actually, it's for no one. The "me, Jesus and my bible" religion is what leads to numerous errors. No offense, but I can't believe you're that much smarter than 2,000 years of Church teaching and the living witness of billions of Christians including the Early Church Father's many of whom learnt at the feet of the Apostles. Christianity does not operate in a vacuum; it is a communal faith.

 

[santiagoamr]

Mm-hmm. I wonder and please feel free not to answer this because in no way am I trying to bait you into saying something in"flam"itory. I'm just curious. Do you think in your opinion that Protestants are wrong? I mean, don't we all have the right to differing theological points of view? Again, I'm merely asking out of curiosity's sake. I'm far too curious and outspoken. It's one of my worst traits.

Sorry if you believe that what I wrote was inflamatory, not meant like that at all.

I believe that truth can not rely on believes but on proof. Truth is real that means reality, it is not a point of view, that is just a point of view, truth is what is real and proven. Once proof is stablished it must be noted and not denied, deniyng truth is not caring about reality.

I believe protestants have a lot of things right but not all, not about faith anyways. We do have something in common that is undeniable, we both love Christ. Inflmatory comments would be saying us catholics hate Christ but love the Church. Or that we put the Church before Christ, but for us Christ told us to be part of his church and obey it's doctrines and we love Christ by obeying it's teachings through the church.

What I posted earlier was to make a point I did not use anyone as an example, everything saifd was hypothetical.

 

[Veritas]

That was rude and in my opinion you should apologize. You do not know IAA well enough to make that kind of judgement. Just I would not say that about you.

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am mine.

 

[santiagoamr]

I appreciate your views and respect your right to them. However, I do not share them.

It is respectable, people might deny the truth and that is their own choosing which is respectable in may ways. But your views do not change reality or what Calvin and Luther thought. Those are facts!!!

Thanks ans love (really)

Santiago

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Actually, it's for no one. The "me, Jesus and my bible" religion is what leads to numerous errors. No offense, but I can't believe you're that much smarter than 2,000 years of Church teaching and the living witness of billions of Christians including the Early Church Father's many of whom learnt at the feet of the Apostles. Christianity does not operate in a vacuum; it is a communal faith.

I'm sorry, but I later explained what I really meant. I mean that I don't need any kind of church tradition (please take no offense) like your faith has. I do not belong to a denom. that has a cathechism. The only instruction I recieve is from my Bible and pastor. More or less. I'm not a theologian and I just try and keep it as simple as possible. I think if it gets too complicated, then forget it (as far as Me goes. I can't have anything that muddles up something that ought to be simple). In my opinion I have no need for church traditions. After all Abraham and David seemed to do okay. Unless someone knows something I don't. I don't know everything, but I do have what I need. Church, Pastor, Bible.

 

[Veritas]

Excuse you, but there is no need to shout at me. I will not answer your question. I do not like your tone. Perhaps if you had asked more politely I would be inclined to do so. As it is, I will not. Have a good day, ma'am.

Fraulein Elsa

Whoa! Please show me where I "shouted"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is respectable, people might deny the truth and that is their own choosing which is respectable in may ways. But your views do not change reality or what Calvin and Luther thought. Those are facts!!!

Thanks ans love (really)

Santiago

Hi. Again, I have to reiterate "What saith the Scripture".

Gala 4: 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is the mother of us all, .....30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10/Revelation 11:2 "court of the Preists]

 

[santiagoamr]

Hi. Again, I have to reiterate "What saith the Scripture".

Gala 4: 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is the mother of us all, .....30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10/Revelation 11:2 "court of the Preists]

Exactly what does the scripture say? I think Calvin and Luther said it best than you and I.