Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[OldAbramBrown]

Most of it is Protestant objections to Catholicism answered by Catholics and Lutherans and the Orthodox, and then the same objections brought up all over again, and answered again, and the same exact things brought up again by someone new to the thread. Rinse and repeat over and over and over again.

... some P. objections, answered by some C., L. and O. ... "Opponents" and "proponents" alike, avoid what will shed light on the issue.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Isn't it more of a lack of knowledge of history?

It's far more than that, it's lack of thinking as human beings. Who has said for themselves what the significance of "bearing Christ to each other" is, or how? Some can recite from vocabulary in a book; can their tone attest to conviction?

When I have marked many contributions "informative", "useful" etc it's because I read my convictions into what they've stated.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

What matters is not what it sounds like to a vocal minority including yourself, but rather what the truth of the matter is, and the truth is that there is no worship, only veneration.

... not always worship, sometimes only veneration - and "permissible" veneration can range down to the very slight to nonexistent, and not necessarily distorted. I had thought better of you than to compare OC with others you've known: another contributor has to be thought as thinking for themselves not as their old denomination told them. Setting the example of thinking for ourselves embodies empathy and stops matters being "argued" on an ad hominem basis.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

It's called going in circles.

With some escape lanes into the real topic.

 

[ozso]

True. But the Romans really got it wrong, they persecuted Catholics until the reign of Constantine. Many Catholics and many popes (not just Peter) were put to death for their faith.

"Get it wrong" sounded like a present day reference to me.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Tradition has a tendency to cement colloquiums with societal variables which leads to abstract parameters as seen in the catechisms of the Antioch Synod.

This is certainly so (I haven't been able to apply it specifically to Antioch yet).

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... This was supposed to be a debate where I take a position and others challenge that position ...

No, it's supposed to be a conversation among all, about all angles we can freely think of, to do with the topic. In passing, it depends what one means by a "position" (or "challenge"). Several of the main contributors have shown unwillingness to help you or to acknowledge wider light and I'll place them on "ignore" later.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

(I'm not going to touch RC-specific beliefs like the Immaculate Conception, since because I don't share them, I can't very well explain or defend how they may fit in with the beliefs that RCism shares with Orthodoxy 1 ; Catholics can explain their own unique beliefs just fine, I'm sure 2 ).

If St. Mary wasn't the mother of God, none of this other stuff that you and McArthur are criticizing would be happening. 3

1 - Bearing in mind the RCs and their tenets are diverse (let alone other catholics') they often don't really fit in with it.
2 - They can't do it well: they tend to use echoes (such as the wine at the feast) as main planks which is the wrong way round, then they reinforce that by materialistic interpretations
3 - Since Christ Jesus was going to be incarnated (so that He could rise from death and ascend) materialistic interpretations of this as of everything else, were inevitable.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... it's clear to me that too many people can't handle it and it ends up being a messy situation of hurt feelings and misdirected anger.

You could always refrain from addressing the numerous misfires and only deal with original thinking.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Patristics as in the apostolic fathers and their direct disciples. That's what's meant by the original church.

If you care about Patristics you should study the writings of St. Cyril of Alexandria, and also St. Athanasius (On The Incarnation) which would clear all of this up.

The direct disciples are the earlier fathers. Anything the next couple of generations said, whatever their reasons, can likewise be evaluated on its own merits, if we understand it.

 

[All Becomes New]

No, it's supposed to be a conversation among all, about all angles we can freely think of, to do with the topic. In passing, it depends what one means by a "position" (or "challenge"). Several of the main contributors have shown unwillingness to help you or to acknowledge wider light and I'll place them on "ignore" later.

Is this a reference to me?

I admit I don't have much idea of what is happening in this thread. I know you are trying to get at some of the fundamental axioms we disagree on, but beyond that, IDK what the deep things are that you think we should be discussing.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Intent is a conscious decision to worship ... adoration is reserved for God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

In the Christian religion, the sacrifice, whether it’s a sacrifice made by God for us as. Martin Luther argued, or a sacrifice we make in anamnesis ...

This is why the Palmarian Church of today and the ancient Collyridians of the fourth century were guilty of idolatry concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary: because they say the she along with Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and they offer the sacrifice of the Lord’s Supper to her as well as to the Lord. It is called the Lord’s Supper for a reason, that being that it is from and to God, hence the phrase in the Byzantine (Eastern Orthodox and Greek Catholic) versions of the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee, on behalf of All, and for All.” It is thus an offering specifically to God through the person of Christ, accomplished with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Correct. The point is not the sacrament, it is the attitude in living as St Paul urged.

I have agency as free individual, I don't do what unreliable parties who are in all quarters say I had been ordered to do.

If you had put it like this earlier it would have supported what I've been saying all along.

 

[ozso]

This is certainly so (I haven't been able to apply it specifically to Antioch yet).

What I wrote was pure gobbledegook.

 

[dzheremi]

1 - Bearing in mind the RCs and their tenets are diverse (let alone other catholics') they often don't really fit in with it.
2 - They can't do it well: they tend to use echoes (such as the wine at the feast) as main planks which is the wrong way round, then they reinforce that by materialistic interpretations
3 - Since Christ Jesus was going to be incarnated (so that He could rise from death and ascend) materialistic interpretations of this as of everything else, were inevitable.

I really don't mean this as any kind of insult or comment on you as a person, but I have a very hard time following what you write, OldAbramBrown. I'm sorry; I really am trying. I read this three times and I still don't think I get it.

Just so we're clear, I wrote that bit about Catholics and their doctrines concerning St. Mary (e.g., the Immaculate Conception, the idea that is allowable in Catholicism but not Orthodoxy that her ascension was not preceded by her natural death, etc.) not so that we could talk more about what we find deficient in Catholicism, or the way that Catholics argue (I think we've had just about enough of that in this thread), but because, as I wrote, I am not in the position to show how doctrines that I don't even believe in are supposed to be understood.

 

[The Liturgist]

What about the other inhabitants of Italy like the Tuskans?

Tuskans are the dudes who ride banthas and attacked Luke Skywalker before being scared off by Obi Wan Kenobi in the 1977 film Star Wars, which has enjoyed moderate success.

I believe you are thinking of the Etruscan civilization, which was clearly culturally related to ancient Rome but not quite the same thing. If Rome was New York City, the Etruscans would be New England.

There is of course a region in Italy called Tuscany but as far as we know Etruscan civilization per se is long gone.

 

[The Liturgist]

Maybe you will not believe me, but I know of an Orthodox chap who says he worships Mary. His justification for this is that he serves only God.

I think it is... problematic to get fully prostrate in front of a statue, but maybe that's just me.

What you say is entirely possible. However, it sounds like he is simply using obscure terminology. Worship is the word used in contemporary English to translate the Greek word Latria, which means service, but historically it was also used to refer to veneration, which in the Greek is Doulia. So if he meant he offers Doulia to the Theotokos, but used the word “worship” probably because it is more widely known, that would make sense, that he would then seek to clarify that he only serves (offers Latria) to God, and that would be in keeping with the strict prohibition both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have against idolatry.

We also don’t employ statues as religious art, and there is a restriction on the maximum depth of bas-relief carving. However I regard this as rite specific and am not prepared to criticize Roman Catholics on this issue, as I am entirely confident they are not engaging in idolatry but rather are simply venerating iconography.

This is because I have seen real actual idolatry, for exampls, in the form of the ceremonial service and sacrificial offerings that Buddhists, Hindus and Jainists make towards their idols. And likewise in the offerings some people in Mexico make to “Santa Muerte” (the veneration of which is prohibited by the Roman Catholic Church), or even more troubling, the offerings of coca leaves and libations of pure alcohol Bolivian silver miners make to an underground statue of “El Tio” (the Uncle), who is basically the devil, who they believe must be appeased with offerings to prevent accidents such as tunnel collapses, injuries and so on.

 

[The Liturgist]

Lighten up, bro. There's all kinds of disagreements within Christianity. I've seen Catholics come down hard on aspects of Protestantism. It's par for the course.

Bavaria has been united with the rest of the German lander since 1871, when the Prussians defeated Emperor Napoleon III, who was an ally of Bavaria, compelling King Ludwig II to write the “Imperial Letter” to the King of Prussia urging him to be crowned as the first Kaiser of the German Empire.

I would also note Bavaria in general and Munchen (Munich) in particular is the center for Oktoberfest celebration.

 

[Hammster]

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