Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[chevyontheriver]

The difference between Catholics, Orthodox and some Lutherans regarding Mariology, is like the difference between Germany, Austria and Bavaria when it comes to Oktoberfest.

Thank you for the snide comment.

 

[ozso]

Thank you for the snide comment.

Lighten up, bro. There's all kinds of disagreements within Christianity. I've seen Catholics come down hard on aspects of Protestantism. It's par for the course.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It's par for the course.

That's your excuse. I'm done.

 

[ozso]

That's your excuse. I'm done.

My excuse for not agreeing with every doctrine in Christianity? I'll be sure to be cut to the quick and hold a grudge the next time someone challenges one I hold to.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

The thing is one's personal experiences only cover a small scope and therefore that isn't much to go by.

... I find the saying that "it's veneration, not worship" is like saying "it's damp, not wet".

You sound like the Prevent Programme. When it is "damp", I go out without my hat, coat or umbrella. I never had a "problem" with anti-catholicism-on-a-stick as FenderTL5 aptly calls it, where I have the problem is the functional heresy when many authorities of all denominations subtract from truth about Father, Son and Holy Ghost because that is making ordinary people ill equipped for life (my God intended mankind to eat from the Tree of Lives - see the last 21 verses of Proverbs). Where do you see lives stunted and what do they have in common?

 

[All Becomes New]

What matters is not what it sounds like to a vocal minority including yourself, but rather what the truth of the matter is, and the truth is that there is no worship, only veneration.

Maybe you will not believe me, but I know of an Orthodox chap who says he worships Mary. His justification for this is that he serves only God.

I think it is... problematic to get fully prostrate in front of a statue, but maybe that's just me.

 

[ozso]

You sound like the Prevent Programme. When it is "damp", I go out without my hat, coat or umbrella.

Actually I had something like a washcloth in mind.

I never had a "problem" with anti-catholicism-on-a-stick as FenderTL5 aptly calls it, where I have the problem is the functional heresy when many authorities of all denominations subtract from truth about Father, Son and Holy Ghost because that is making ordinary people ill equipped for life (my God intended mankind to eat from the Tree of Lives - see the last 21 verses of Proverbs). Where do you see lives stunted and what do they have in common?

I'm sorry but what you said and then asked doesn't really make much sense to me.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

This was supposed to be an answer to the OP question. I think you came late to the resulting discussion.

I was explaining why it's viewed as a problem. My first post was #49

... The thing I have noticed you have added is that when Catholics say we don’t worship Mary you say ‘Oh yes you do’ as if to tell us to our faces that we are liars. AND that you feel the need to go beyond the OP question about Mary as mother of God and what to make of MacArhur’s denial of that.

Obviously some folks can't tolerate having a doctrine challenged. Or they can't argue it well enough so they get all upset. END QUOTE

Sometimes you've stated your point very well indeed, other times you have shifted and exaggerated. I would correct Chevy simply by saying "well some of us don't and some of our leaders don't tell us to". I by contrast don't have skin in the Roman versus anti-Roman brand name game.

 

[ozso]

I was explaining why it's viewed as a problem. My first post was #49


Obviously some folks can't tolerate having a doctrine challenged. Or they can't argue it well enough so they get all upset. END QUOTE

Sometimes you're stated your point very well indeed, other times you have shifted and exaggerated. I would correct Chevy simply by saying "well some of us don't and some of our leaders don't tell us to". I by contrast don't have skin in the Roman versus anti-Roman brand name game.

Guitar strings, because peanuts don't have wheels.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... should be locked, as it no chance of going anywhere so long as this is what we're dealing with ...

Are you accusing me of breaching a "truce" as TL did? What do you think of Father, Son and Holy Ghost in our lives which I took as background cited for one of the expressions under "dispute"?

The thread went (if you can but see it):

- what's Theotokos
- Theotokos is about the Son, who sent us the Comforter at Ascension

Anyone wavering between following the thread and not following it but intruding, should be given less attention in the setting for the time being.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I'm sorry but what you said and then asked doesn't really make much sense to me.

The Son of man came in order to rise and ascend to give us the Comforter. That's what's at stake. Of course some Romans get it wrong.

 

[ozso]

Are you accusing me of breaching a "truce" as TL did? What do you think of Father, Son and Holy Ghost in our lives which I took as background cited for one of the expressions under "dispute"?

The thread went (if you can but see it):

- what's Theotokos
- Theotokos is about the Son, who sent us the Comforter at Ascension

Anyone wavering between following the thread and not following it but intruding, should be given less attention in the setting for the time being.

It sounds like you're saying that Mary (the Theotokos) is the Holy Spirit.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

It's an understanding of God's Word that many abandoned after the reformation. I've seen a number of your anti-Catholic statements before in other threads.

The reformation was about getting back to original Christianity. And the whole praying to Mary, Mary being a heavenly intercessor, Mary being the Queen of Heaven, Mary being an immaculate conception, Mary being a perpetual virgin, the assumption of Mary etc. wasn't a part of original Christianity.

The saints are heavenly intercessors see Rev. Scripture doesn't say we should believe they can overhear us.

Almost altogether, the truth is in between. "Tradition" (properly plural) is something different from what almost anyone thinks, altogether.

 

[ozso]

The Son of man came in order to rise and ascend to give us the Comforter. That's what's at stake. Of course some Romans get it wrong.

What about the other inhabitants of Italy like the Tuskans?

 

[ozso]

The saints are heavenly intercessors see Rev. Scripture doesn't say we should believe they can overhear us.

Almost altogether, the truth is in between. "Tradition" (properly plural) is something different from what almost anyone thinks, altogether.

Tradition has a tendency to cement colloquiums with societal variables which leads to abstract parameters as seen in the catechisms of the Antioch Synod.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

It sounds like you're saying that Mary (the Theotokos) is the Holy Spirit.

I don't happen to have, and I shan't be doing so. Holy Scripture explains that Holy Spirit is supposed to be the relevant One to us, day by day, through Whom we can speak to Father and Son equally. Many in all denominations have subtracted from this, by head-on, and by sly, devious, oblique means, in order to exert their overlordship and stop us having real belief: that is what I meant by functional heresy. When Jesus slammed the tyrants (echoing Jeremiah's account of God's views on the Josiah era "revival" and echoed in turn by St Paul and James on the superapostles), He was talking about functional heresy. We are all called to bear the qualities of Christ to each other, which we can only do in Holy Spirit strength because of Ascension.

(In the real meaning of Original Sin, Mary's conception could have been similar to John the Baptist's: they were both born in holy homes. Christians generally are not objectively "required" to believe anything specific about Mary's casket.)

I always thought faith, belief and religion was something we figured out for ourselves, evaluating what we hear and read and while we contemplate. So many at CF seem to think they (and by extension I) are not allowed to do this. I'm going back to the 1,150s where there seem to have been some interesting contributions.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

What about the other inhabitants of Italy like the Tuskans?

Name of denomination. I should remember "RC" is less typing.

 

[Valletta]

What about the other inhabitants of Italy like the Tuskans?

True. But the Romans really got it wrong, they persecuted Catholics until the reign of Constantine. Many Catholics and many popes (not just Peter) were put to death for their faith.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

"Nestorian" seems to be a very Catholic accusation, and I can't address it from that perspective.

The word isn't well known (and hence the attached group of concepts to be thought about in their own right) but catholics are thick on the ground, so the chances are it would be one you heard it from.

 

[Valletta]

The word isn't well known (and hence the attached group of concepts to be thought about in their own right) but catholics are thick on the ground, so the chances are it would be one you heard it from.

Isn't it more of a lack of knowledge of history?