Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

[Brightfame52]

Certainly your mind has not been changed by the facts of Scripture.

What you think Gal 5:22 and 2 Thess 2:13 are if not scripture ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you think Gal 5:22 and 2 Thess 2:13 are if not scripture ?

Of course they are Scripture? I've never said otherwise.

Why do you think these verses say what you claim?

 

[Brightfame52]

Of course they are Scripture? I've never said otherwise.

Why do you think these verses say what you claim?

Okay then, I base my convictions on scripture, which makes your previous comment irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay then, I base my convictions on scripture, which makes your previous comment irrelevant.

Your claim is baseless.

You haven't yet provided ANY verses that support any of TULIP.

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.
Your convictions are baseless. As I've shown.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

Crickets from the calvinists.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your claim is baseless.

You haven't yet provided ANY verses that support any of TULIP.

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.
Your convictions are baseless. As I've shown.

Maybe you should ask, 'what passages?'. Do you operate verse by verse?

And here, by your say-so alone, 6000 years of the sovereignty and grace of God is rendered impotent.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your claim is baseless.

You haven't yet provided ANY verses that support any of TULIP.

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.
Your convictions are baseless. As I've shown.

Lol, Yours is baseless .

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe you should ask, 'what passages?'. Do you operate verse by verse?

And here, by your say-so alone, 6000 years of the sovereignty and grace of God is rendered impotent.

OK, what passages?

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

I haven't "rendered 6,000 years of the sovereignty and grace of God impotent".

What I am doing is rendering calvinism impotent.

You have NO verses that state any of the points of TULIP.

ps: I am NOT an Arminian. My view of eternal security is MORE secure than calvinism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your claim is baseless.

You haven't yet provided ANY verses that support any of TULIP.

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.
Your convictions are baseless. As I've shown.

You have not shown our convictions are baseless.

We have none? There are MANY.

Are you saying there ARE no verses supporting TULIP? On this site alone, just under Total Depravity I count 20 PASSAGES quoted, many of them with more than one verse. The others of the five points are similarly supported. And they obviously kept their quotes short for brevity's sake.
TULIP with Scriptures

You say, "What verse says God chooses who will believe?"
--One verse?? Is that how you operate? Just for starters: Rom.8:28 - Rom.8:33; Rom.9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

You say, "What verse says God elects to salvation?"
--Just for starters: John.6:37 - John.6:39; Matt.24:31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

You say, "What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?"
--Just for starters: John.10:24 - John.10:29; Acts.13:48 "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

You say, "What verse says that grace is irresistible?"
--Just for starters: John.6:35 - John.6:40; John 1:12 - John 1:13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

You say, "What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?"
--Just for starters: Jn.10:27 - Jn.10:30
1Cor.1:8 "who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Brightfame52]

Your claim is baseless.

You haven't yet provided ANY verses that support any of TULIP.

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.
Your convictions are baseless. As I've shown.

So you wanna play the argument from silence game. Tell me therefore:
What verse says God does not choose who will believe?
What verse says God does not elect to salvation?
What verse says Christ did not ONLY die for the elect?
What verse says that grace is not irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will not persevere in the faith?

You have none.
Your convictions are baseless. As I've shown.

 

[Mark Quayle]

ps: I am NOT an Arminian. My view of eternal security is MORE secure than calvinism.

What are you, then, if not Arminian?

 

[Mark Quayle]

OK, what passages?

What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

I haven't "rendered 6,000 years of the sovereignty and grace of God impotent".

What I am doing is rendering calvinism impotent.

You have NO verses that state any of the points of TULIP.

ps: I am NOT an Arminian. My view of eternal security is MORE secure than calvinism.

Here's another, simpler, for those who can only digest one verse at a time:



Total Depravity
There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God.Romans 3:11, NASB

Unconditional Election
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”Romans 9:15, NASB

Limited Atonement
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”John 10:11, NASB

Irresistible Grace
“All that the Father gives me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.John 6:37, NASB

Perseverance of the Saints
“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”John 6:39, NASB

TULIP. Five Points. Five Verses. - The Cerulean Standard

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have not shown our convictions are baseless.

No, it's the other way around. Calvinists have not shown any Scripture that states any of the 5 points.

We have none? There are MANY.

I've heard that before.

Are you saying there ARE no verses supporting TULIP?

I believe I did. So show me 1, to prove I am in error. If there are any, it should be easy.

On this site alone, just under Total Depravity I count 20 PASSAGES quoted, many of them with more than one verse. The others of the five points are similarly supported. And they obviously kept their quotes short for brevity's sake.

Of course you think there are verses that "support" TD. Here's the challenge. I agree totally that man is unable to save himself. But calvinists go TOOOOO far and also claim under TD that man is unable to believe unless regenerated, or something like that.

Eph 2:5 equates regeneration with salvation. v.8 says we are saved by gracd THROUGH faith. That means faith must be present, in order for salvation to occur.

So, since regeneration AND salvation are equated, BOTH require faith to be present first. That KILLS the calvinist claim about regeneration preceding faith.

TULIP with Scriptures

I've seen such lists before. I'm not going to address some web link. But if you are so motivated to copy and paste specific verses to the other 4 points, please do.

You say, "What verse says God chooses who will believe?"
--One verse?? Is that how you operate?

No, I'm just trying to make it easy for calvinists to give 1 verse. Can YOU do it?

Just for starters: Rom.8:28 - Rom.8:33; Rom.9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

Why do you think these verses say that God chooses who will believe? Rather, you think that is what they mean. But they don't say it.

You say, "What verse says God elects to salvation?"
--Just for starters: John.6:37 - John.6:39; Matt.24:31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Again, NONE of these verse say that God elects people to salvation. If you had read this thread, you would have seen all my verses where the clear purpose of election was service.

You say, "What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?"
--Just for starters: John.10:24 - John.10:29; Acts.13:48 "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Except none say that. And there are numerous verses that actually and plainly say that Christ died for all. And don't get me started on that lame nonsense about "all" doesn't really mean everyone. I know as well as you that UNLESS the verse clearly shows that "all" is limited to a specific group, it DOES MEAN EVERYONE.

You say, "What verse says that grace is irresistible?"
--Just for starters: John.6:35 - John.6:40; John 1:12 - John 1:13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Where does it say that man cannot resist grace? It doesn't. You only think it means that, but it doesn't. v.13 is about regeneration. That is God's choice. Man believes, and God regenerates, which I've already shown in Eph 2:5 and 8.

You say, "What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?"
--Just for starters: Jn.10:27 - Jn.10:30
1Cor.1:8 "who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This isn't about persevering in the faith. It's about God's faithfulness to keep all believers SAVED.

Explain the verses where believers are encouraged to "continue in the faith" or "remain in the faith". Acts 11:23, 14:22. And Luke 8:13. Jesus said that some will "believe for a while" and then "fall away". He wasn't talking about losing salvation, but ceasing to believe due to various challenges and distractions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.

So you wanna play the argument from silence game.

No, actually it is YOU who seem to be playing that game. You believe stuff that the Bible doesn't teach. So YOU are believing from silence.

Tell me therefore:
What verse says God does not choose who will believe?
What verse says God does not elect to salvation?
What verse says Christ did not ONLY die for the elect?
What verse says that grace is not irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will not persevere in the faith?

Ha. If any of these things were true, there WOULD BE A VERSE THAT SAYS SO.

So your games don't work. YOU cannot prove what you believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What are you, then, if not Arminian?

Most calvinists and arminians think that there are only 2 theologies out there.

Do some research on "free grace theology". That's what I mostly believe. Like all theologies, there isn't 100% among all about the theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here's another, simpler, for those who can only digest one verse at a time:

Total Depravity
There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God.Romans 3:11, NASB

I do agree with this. But it doesn't support the calvinist claim that man cannot believe. And, you you know the context for this quote from the OT. That should clear up your misconception that this verse applies to everyone in the human race.

Unconditional Election
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”Romans 9:15, NASB

This verse doesn't EVEN mention election. So how can it support UE?

btw, I AGREE that God's election is unconditional. But here's your error. You claim UE, but if that were true, then salvation is NOT by faith, but by election. Have you ever thought of that?

And the Bible is full of verses that cleary articulate that the sole condition for salvation is faith or believing in Christ. How many verses would you like to see?

Limited Atonement
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”John 10:11, NASB

Glad you quoted this verse. In ch 10, Jesus specifically mentions
1. "the sheep" v.1-3, 7-8, 11-12, 13,15
2. "My sheep" v.3,4,14
3. "Other sheep of Mine" v.16
4. "not of My sheep" v.26

So, there are His sheep, (#2,3, which are saved people), there are those NOT His sheep (unsaved people) and THE sheep, everyone.

So the verse you quoted supports unlimited atonement. Christ laid down His life for THE sheep. If the atonement was for His own sheep, the verse would have said THAT. But it didn't.

Irresistible Grace
“All that the Father gives me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.John 6:37, NASB

Again, nothing about grace here. And Acts 7:51 actually SAYS the opposite: “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Since the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin, etc, that is grace on God's part.

However, explain the fact that men refuse (a choice) to believe? Acts 14:2, 19:9

Perseverance of the Saints
“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”John 6:39, NASB

This isn't perseverance, this is preservation. There is a difference.

You have not supported any of the 5 points. And I have refuted them with Scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

I said:
What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.

No, actually it is YOU who seem to be playing that game. You believe stuff that the Bible doesn't teach. So YOU are believing from silence.


Ha. If any of these things were true, there WOULD BE A VERSE THAT SAYS SO.

So your games don't work. YOU cannot prove what you believe.

lol You a funny person, not even taking you serious !

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have not shown our convictions are baseless.

We have none? There are MANY.

Are you saying there ARE no verses supporting TULIP? On this site alone, just under Total Depravity I count 20 PASSAGES quoted, many of them with more than one verse. The others of the five points are similarly supported. And they obviously kept their quotes short for brevity's sake.
TULIP with Scriptures

You say, "What verse says God chooses who will believe?"
--One verse?? Is that how you operate? Just for starters: Rom.8:28 - Rom.8:33; Rom.9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

You say, "What verse says God elects to salvation?"
--Just for starters: John.6:37 - John.6:39; Matt.24:31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

You say, "What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?"
--Just for starters: John.10:24 - John.10:29; Acts.13:48 "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

You say, "What verse says that grace is irresistible?"
--Just for starters: John.6:35 - John.6:40; John 1:12 - John 1:13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

You say, "What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?"
--Just for starters: Jn.10:27 - Jn.10:30
1Cor.1:8 "who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Total depravity isn’t the problem, it’s your understanding of grace and how it coincides with God’s expectations. God cannot justly punish people for failing to meet impossible expectations. He has provided them grace enabling them to repent and it is thru their own stubbornness that they refuse. They don’t refuse because they are incapable they refuse because they choose not to repent even despite God enabling them to. God has granted grace to everyone which is why Christ died to pay for the sins of everyone. God made the opportunity available to everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.

lol You a funny person, not even taking you serious !

Who will take you seriously, when you have no verses that support TULIP?

No one.

 

[Brightfame52]

I said:
What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.


Who will take you seriously, when you have no verses that support TULIP?

No one.

So you think I should take you serious ?