Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

[Albion]

The meaning of "perseverance" isn't dependent upon one's church affiliation. It means to 'keep going'.

It's believing in it that I was referring to.

 

[Brightfame52]

But you know this isn't the only point in the T. Calvinists, yourself included, also claim that man cannot believe untll regenerated.

So where is your evidence for that unbiblical claim?

Man being under sins power doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Also under sin man doesnt understand God, not the True God.

He may seek after a god of his own understanding which is darkened by sin !

 

[Brightfame52]

It seems you don't even understand anything in Gal 5.

Since you disagree with me, why don't you address my points and show me how I'm wrong.

I understand Faith is the fruit of regeneration of the Spirit.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's believing in it that I was referring to.

That's also what I'm talking about. Not all believers keep "believing in it". As Jesus made clear in the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man being under sins power doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-11

Correct. But when the gospel is presented, man can believe it.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

See? Nothing about inability to believe. You're just reading that into the text which doesn't say it.

Also under sin man doesnt understand God, not the True God.

Then you can't explain Cornelius. As an UNSAVED man, he recognized that God existed and he was thankful to Him.

iow, he fulfilled the principle of Romans 1:19-21.

He may seek after a god of his own understanding which is darkened by sin !

Not Cornelius. He knew the true God. And God rewarded him with the clear gospel message.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

This is a very NON-calvinist verse. It fits Cornelius to a T.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I understand Faith is the fruit of regeneration of the Spirit.

You have shown repeatedly that you don't understand much of the Bible.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

What does this verse mean to you?

 

[Brightfame52]

Correct. But when the gospel is presented, man can believe it.


See? Nothing about inability to believe. You're just reading that into the text which doesn't say it.


Then you can't explain Cornelius. As an UNSAVED man, he recognized that God existed and he was thankful to Him.

iow, he fulfilled the principle of Romans 1:19-21.


Not Cornelius. He knew the true God. And God rewarded him with the clear gospel message.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

This is a very NON-calvinist verse. It fits Cornelius to a T.

If anyone seeks the True God, its obvious they were delivered from being under sin, they were a new creature. How do we know this ? Because people under sin dont seek after the True God Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out !

 

[Brightfame52]

You have shown repeatedly that you don't understand much of the Bible.


What does this verse mean to you?

So you see Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It comes out of Sanctification of the Spirit, which is the New Birth. Faith is the fruit of the New Birth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If anyone seeks the True God, its obvious they were delivered from being under sin, they were a new creature.

No it doesn't mean that at all. And you still haven't provided any verses that say what you claim.

A new creature is a born again regenerated creature. And Eph 2:5 equates salvation and regeneration, and v.8 says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

So this proves that faith precedes salvation and regeneration.

And you've done nothing to explain how I'm wrong about either verse.

How do we know this ? Because people under sin dont seek after the True God Rom 3:9-11

First, v.9 is a general statement that both Jew and Gentile are all under sin.

v.10 and following are EXAMPLES from the OT about the different ways people are sinners. We all don't sin the same way. That's Paul's point.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

See what I mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The key here is "as it is written". This is telling that Paul is about to quote a number of OT verses, that explain the different ways man is sinful. Are you guilty of EVERY sin listed here?

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out !

No it doesn't. If you had looked up the OT verses being quoted, you would have known that Paul was quoting from Psa 14:1-3 or Psa 53:1-3, both of which say the exact same thing.

1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So Paul was referring to atheists who are fools, according to the Bible.

Paul wasn't describing EVERY unbeliever or human being. Just the fool atheists.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you see Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It comes out of Sanctification of the Spirit, which is the New Birth. Faith is the fruit of the New Birth.

You seem to have no clue what the Bible teaches.

Paul wrote:

Gal 5-
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

It is clear that Paul is addressing believers here.

This next verse is also addressing believers.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This is a kind of "if..then" construction. If the believer walks by the Spirit, they will NOT gratify the desires of the flesh. The opposite is also true: if the believer is out of fellowship by grieving (Eph 5:18) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they WILL gratify the desires of the flesh. ie, they will sin.

Then Paul explains the internal struggle of every believer:
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Then Paul explains how believers can act when they are NOT walking by the Spirit:

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is immediately followed by how the believer who is walking by the Spirit will behave:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

So your comment about "faith" being from regeneration is totally irrelevant to this entire passage.

The fruit of the Spirit is what the believer will evidence when walking by the Spirit, but v.19-21 are what believers might produce when grieving/quenching the Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

No it doesn't mean that at all. And you still haven't provided any verses that say what you claim.

A new creature is a born again regenerated creature. And Eph 2:5 equates salvation and regeneration, and v.8 says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

So this proves that faith precedes salvation and regeneration.

And you've done nothing to explain how I'm wrong about either verse.


First, v.9 is a general statement that both Jew and Gentile are all under sin.

v.10 and following are EXAMPLES from the OT about the different ways people are sinners. We all don't sin the same way. That's Paul's point.


See what I mean?


The key here is "as it is written". This is telling that Paul is about to quote a number of OT verses, that explain the different ways man is sinful. Are you guilty of EVERY sin listed here?


No it doesn't. If you had looked up the OT verses being quoted, you would have known that Paul was quoting from Psa 14:1-3 or Psa 53:1-3, both of which say the exact same thing.

1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So Paul was referring to atheists who are fools, according to the Bible.

Paul wasn't describing EVERY unbeliever or human being. Just the fool atheists.

Man naturally is a slave sold under sin, imprisoned to unbelief, and doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11, doesnt even understand the True God Rom 3:11.

 

[Brightfame52]

You seem to have no clue what the Bible teaches.

Paul wrote:

Gal 5-
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

It is clear that Paul is addressing believers here.

This next verse is also addressing believers.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This is a kind of "if..then" construction. If the believer walks by the Spirit, they will NOT gratify the desires of the flesh. The opposite is also true: if the believer is out of fellowship by grieving (Eph 5:18) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they WILL gratify the desires of the flesh. ie, they will sin.

Then Paul explains the internal struggle of every believer:
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Then Paul explains how believers can act when they are NOT walking by the Spirit:

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is immediately followed by how the believer who is walking by the Spirit will behave:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

So your comment about "faith" being from regeneration is totally irrelevant to this entire passage.

The fruit of the Spirit is what the believer will evidence when walking by the Spirit, but v.19-21 are what believers might produce when grieving/quenching the Spirit.

If a person isnt born of the Spirit they cant have Faith since Faith is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man naturally is a slave sold under sin, imprisoned to unbelief, and doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11, doesnt even understand the True God Rom 3:11.

OK, you have shown that you have no idea what Paul wrote in Rom 3:9-18. Got it.

And, the story of Cornelius refutes your false claim that unbelievers don't "even understand the True God.

Have you ever read Acts 10? It's clear enough. And Acts 11:14 proves that Cornelius was not saved UNTIL Peter preached the gospel to him and his household.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If a person isnt born of the Spirit they cant have Faith since Faith is the fruit of the Spirit.

Your confusion seems legendary.

When an unbeliever believes God's promise of salvation, that pleases God. And God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.

But we've already been down that road and you still don't get it.

All you've done is repeat talking points. And reject the truth of Scripture when presented to you.

 

[Brightfame52]

OK, you have shown that you have no idea what Paul wrote in Rom 3:9-18. Got it.

And, the story of Cornelius refutes your false claim that unbelievers don't "even understand the True God.

Have you ever read Acts 10? It's clear enough. And Acts 11:14 proves that Cornelius was not saved UNTIL Peter preached the gospel to him and his household.

I have shown that I know what Paul wrote in Rom 3:9-11. Man naturally does not seek after God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your confusion seems legendary.

When an unbeliever believes God's promise of salvation, that pleases God. And God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.

But we've already been down that road and you still don't get it.

All you've done is repeat talking points. And reject the truth of Scripture when presented to you.

I'm not confused you are.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have shown that I know what Paul wrote in Rom 3:9-11. Man naturally does not seek after God.

Again, you've just proved my claim that you have no idea what Paul was talking about. That verse is a quote from Psa 14:1-3 which is about fool atheists. Of course they don't seek after God. They're fools.

Cornelius was UNSAVED when an angel instructed him to get Peter. He was seeking God.

And Heb 11:6 says: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

A very clear statement about who DOES seek Him. Like Cornelius.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not confused you are.

Is that all you've got for your defense?

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, you've just proved my claim that you have no idea what Paul was talking about. That verse is a quote from Psa 14:1-3 which is about fool atheists. Of course they don't seek after God. They're fools.

Cornelius was UNSAVED when an angel instructed him to get Peter. He was seeking God.

And Heb 11:6 says: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

A very clear statement about who DOES seek Him. Like Cornelius.

lol, you showing verses that agree with me, and you cant even see it. Man naturally doesnt seek after God, doesnt believe in God, nor understand God, all the things True Faith necessitates according to Heb 11:6

 

[Bobber]

lol, you showing verses that agree with me, and you cant even see it. Man naturally doesnt seek after God, doesnt believe in God, nor understand God, all the things True Faith necessitates according to Heb 11:6

So you're argument from Heb 11:6 is that God put's the faith into one who seeks him and they have no choice in the matter and even when it comes to the exhortation of being earnest well that's automatic as too. If being earnest wasn't a REAL choice how could it ever be said their earnesty was a true reflection of what they REALLY wanted. It could hardly be said they truly were earnestly seeking God. Such is why Calvinism doesn't make sense.