Is it wrong that I keep Shabbat and do not "go to church" on Sunday?

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I have been grafted in...I'm no gentile.

You claim to be Jewish?

 

[Saint Steven]

There is no evidence of any human keeping the Sabbath before it was given in Exodus chapter sixteen.

Here are the facts:

Nowhere before Exodus chapter 16
do we find any biblical evidence of any human:
- observing the sabbath.
- preparing for the sabbath.
- adjusting their plans to account for the sabbath.
- teaching anyone else to observe the sabbath.
- extolling the virtues of the sabbath.
- being criticized for not observing the sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

What did Jesus mean when he said man was not made for the Sabbath?

mankind is made on day 6
Sabbath was made on the 7th day.

The Sabbath was made as a blessing for mankind. In Mark 2 we see Jews "making stuff up" in this case having to do with the Sabbath in efforts to turn the blessing into a curse. Christ is correcting them.

Just making up whatever you feel is never a good idea when it comes to the Commandments of God - according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no evidence of any human keeping the Sabbath before it was given in Exodus chapter sixteen.

Here are the facts:

Nowhere before Exodus chapter 16
do we find any biblical evidence of any human:
- observing the sabbath.
- preparing for the sabbath.
- adjusting their plans to account for the sabbath.
- teaching anyone else to observe the sabbath.
- extolling the virtues of the sabbath.
- being criticized for not observing the sabbath.

Nor do we find the command "do not take God's name in vain" in those chapters - but it still exists.
And we DO find that the Sabbath was made binding on the 7th day of creation week.

 

[BobRyan]

Right. By setting aside the law. The dividing wall of hostility.

There was no hostility between Jews and gentiles in Isaiah 56:6-8 as both are being identified as needing to comply with the moral law pertaining to the weekly Sabbath.

We see no hostility between Jews and gentiles in Acts 13 on the Sabbath in fact it is the gentiles that are asking for more gospel preaching "the next Sabbath".

 

[Tone]

If you grafted a pear branch into an apple tree, would it cease being a pear branch?

Pears...apples...where does it say that...I believe you mean olive trees (natural/wild)?

An olive tree...is an olive tree...

"Question:
If you graft a wild olive onto a cultivated olive tree, will the wild branch become like that of a cultivated branch

Source:
Olive Oil News
Answer:
Grafting is done for several purposes, but most commonly in the olive oil industry it is to get the hardy roots of one variety with the fecundity of another variety. The whole point of grafting is that each part of the grafted tree keeps its original character. The variety used for the root stock may be resistant to fungus or other pests but has a small or low yield olive. The graft may have weak roots but large fruit with high oil content. The resulting tree has the best of both varieties"
What if you grafted a wild olive branch onto a cultivated olive tree? | The Olive Oil Source

 

[Tone]

Right. By setting aside the law. The dividing wall of hostility.

So you're saying that the Sabbath divided Israel from the gentiles (the nations)?

*If so, I agree, that is why I am of Israel and not a gentile (of the nations).

 

[Tone]

What did Jesus mean when he said man was not made for the Sabbath?

What did He mean when He said "the Sabbath was made for man"?

 

[Tone]

You claim to be Jewish?

No.

 

[Saint Steven]

mankind is made on day 6
Sabbath was made on the 7th day.

The Sabbath was made as a blessing for mankind. In Mark 2 we see Jews "making stuff up" in this case having to do with the Sabbath in efforts to turn the blessing into a curse. Christ is correcting them.

Just making up whatever you feel is never a good idea when it comes to the Commandments of God - according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13.

You failed to answer the question. Is it threatening to your position?
Again...

What did Jesus mean when he said man was not made for the Sabbath?

 

[Saint Steven]

Nor do we find the command "do not take God's name in vain" in those chapters - but it still exists.
And we DO find that the Sabbath was made binding on the 7th day of creation week.

That's not correct.
Provide biblical evidence for one human that kept the Sabbath before Exodus chapter sixteen.

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given...

 

[Saint Steven]

There was no hostility between Jews and gentiles in Isaiah 56:6-8 as both are being identified as needing to comply with the moral law pertaining to the weekly Sabbath.

We see no hostility between Jews and gentiles in Acts 13 on the Sabbath in fact it is the gentiles that are asking for more gospel preaching "the next Sabbath".

The Bible says the law was a dividing wall of hostility, you say you see no hostility between Jews and gentiles. Who should we believe?

 

[Saint Steven]

Pears...apples...where does it say that...I believe you mean olive trees (natural/wild)?

An olive tree...is an olive tree...

"Question:
If you graft a wild olive onto a cultivated olive tree, will the wild branch become like that of a cultivated branch

Source:
Olive Oil News
Answer:
Grafting is done for several purposes, but most commonly in the olive oil industry it is to get the hardy roots of one variety with the fecundity of another variety. The whole point of grafting is that each part of the grafted tree keeps its original character. The variety used for the root stock may be resistant to fungus or other pests but has a small or low yield olive. The graft may have weak roots but large fruit with high oil content. The resulting tree has the best of both varieties"
What if you grafted a wild olive branch onto a cultivated olive tree? | The Olive Oil Source

Thanks for proving my point.
"The whole point of grafting is that each part of the grafted tree keeps its original character." Were you a gentile before you were grafted in?

 

[Saint Steven]

No.

Right.
There are only two choices, If you are not Jewish, then you are gentile by definition.
And there is nothing wrong with that. God by his grace has included us. PTL

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible says the law was a dividing wall of hostility,

In Eph 2 it is because the Gentiles were not circumcised and not required to keep ceremonial law -- read the chapter.

It has nothing to do with "do not take God's name in vain-- can only apply to Jews not gentiles" as you seem to be inserting into Eph 2. It says nothing at all about moral law only applying to Israel and both sides of the classic Sunday vs Bible-Sabbath debate freely agree to that Bible detail as I have already shown.

you say you see no hostility between Jews and gentiles. Who should we believe?

Funny that is a bit of a "spin" on my statement.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Nor do we find the command "do not take God's name in vain" in those chapters - but it still exists.
And we DO find that the Sabbath was made binding on the 7th day of creation week.

That's not correct.

I notice you provide no "Do not take God's name in vain" quote before Exodus 20 in your response. What were you hoping to use as fact to back up your claim just then??

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given...

Genesis 25 "Abraham kept my Laws, Commandments and Statutes"
Gen 4 "SIN is crouching at your door "
1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
Genesis 7 clean vs unclean animal distinction even though identifying them is not found until Lev 11.

Turns out - Genesis is not an exhaustive account of every word spoken for 2000 years. I think we all knew that.

 

[Tone]

Thanks for proving my point.
"The whole point of grafting is that each part of the grafted tree keeps its original character." Were you a gentile before you were grafted in?

Yeah, I knew you'd jump on that...it's one source, not necessarily written in stone. But is different "characters" really the same as a different fruit, as in your pears/apple illustration? I retain something of my biological makeup, but it's all an olive tree right?

*Because, it's not about biology, it's about belief...always has been.

 

[Tone]

Right.
There are only two choices, If you are not Jewish, then you are gentile by definition.
And there is nothing wrong with that. God by his grace has included us. PTL

Not true...Judah is only one tribe of Israel...if you are grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel you are no longer of the nations, which is a good thing.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for proving my point.
"The whole point of grafting is that each part of the grafted tree keeps its original character." Were you a gentile before you were grafted in?

Rom 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Jer 31:31-33
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

so then it is no wonder that BOTH sides of the classic Sunday - vs - Bible-Sabbath debate agree that all TEN of the TEN Commandments apply to the saints and are written on the heart as they are part of the moral law of God.

EVEN in the NT "SIN Is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 where that law is the one having the 5th commandment "as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

I think I have already mentioned this to you 3 or 4 times. Was there a response that I missed?

 

[Tone]

No.

You know what, I change my answer...yes I am a Jew:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Thanks @BobRyan!

Besides, if Messiah is in us...as He is...well, what is He?

A Jew!...thank you.