Is it wrong that I keep Shabbat and do not "go to church" on Sunday?

[Saint Steven]

When I drag the mouse over that text it lets me copy the text but not edit/replace it. Do you see a hyperlink or active button applied to that text in your view of it? It is just a plain text field and has no edit or button attributes when I view it. I suppose I could edit the page source but that might not "stick" next time I view the page.

Sorry about that. I thought that was how I did it.
It is not a link or editable. Not sure how I did that. Sorry.

 

[Saint Steven]

Clearly you do not agree with their claims that the Bible Sabbath was for all mankind as Christ said in Mark 2:27 and with their claims that it started in Eden as Ex 20:11 states and with their claims that even for all eternity after the cross - the Ten Commandments continue to apply to all mankind.

Right.
I agree, you or anyone else, are mistaken on all those points.

Did Adam and Eve keep the seventh day with God?
On which day were they created?

 

[Saint Steven]

Clearly you do not agree with their claims that the Bible Sabbath was for all mankind...

You are playing both sides there. The Bible Sabbath to what you call the "Sunday Scholars" was Sunday obviously, not the seventh day Sabbath. So the point is moot.

I suppose your aim was to segregate me into a group. Unfortunately, I'm not that easily pinned down. I maintain the right to believe what I want. I have taken no vows to a denomination. Are you free to say that? (I suppose not)

 

[BobRyan]

You are playing both sides there. The Bible Sabbath to what you call the "Sunday Scholars" was Sunday obviously, not the seventh day Sabbath.

hmmm perhaps a quote would be in order to set the record straight -



=======================

"The Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 gentiles "specifically" singled out for Sabbath keeping (700 years B.C)
Gen 2:1-3 Sabbath given to all mankind in Eden -

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

It was done in Genesis 2.

as even the Sunday groups freely admit when they argue that all mankind was given all TEN of the TEN Commandments in Eden.

Which I keep pointing out here -

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

===================


They all confess that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments were applicable to all mankind in Eden.
D.L. Moody is very explicit on the Sabbath Commandment in Eden.

========================

Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God
I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

==================================== all TEN


The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Section 19

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

=================================


Notice the "details" in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

1. TEN Commandments included in the LAW of God given to mankind in Eden.
2. SAME law given at Sinai as the MORAL Law of God.
3. That law binds all mankind after the cross and before it.
4. It is perfectly consistent with grace and therefore the Gospel
5. Laws OTHER than the TEN commandments were given to Israel and those other laws included the ceremonial laws - which are no longer in place after the cross.

The Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19 makes the SAME 5 points.

====================
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

===================

They all confess that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments were applicable to all mankind in Eden.
D.L. Moody is very explicit on the Sabbath Commandment in Eden.

==================== D.L. Moody on the Sabbath Commandment

The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.


THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
from: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Now I ask you why you try to compel us to live like Jews?

those guys above are not "all Jews" as you seem to suppose and even they can admit to the obvious Bible details about God's Ten Commandments. We can all see that.

 

[BobRyan]

You are playing both sides there. The Bible Sabbath to what you call the "Sunday Scholars" was Sunday obviously, not the seventh day Sabbath. So the point is moot.

Westminster Confession of Faith - seventh day Sabbath of the Bible --

Chapter XXI: Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.

============
Baptist Confession of Faith -

22. Worship and the Sabbath Day

7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

8. The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works, words and thoughts about their worldly employment and recreations, and give themselves over to the public and private acts of worship for the whole time, and to carrying out duties of necessity and mercy.

I suppose your aim was to segregate me into a group. Unfortunately, I'm not that easily pinned down. I maintain the right to believe what I want.

You have that right - but your view is "in favor of Sunday" in terms of going to church on Sunday and ignoring the Bible Sabbath is it not??

 

[BobRyan]

I maintain the right to believe what I want. I have taken no vows to a denomination. Are you free to say that? (I suppose not)

I work as a software engineer for a company that has nothing to do with religion of any kind. I can choose anything I wish - and my choice is "The Word of God". I choose that denomination which most closely matches to the Word of God and have no problem changing to whatever that turns out to be over time.

But I am not in a position to make willy-nilly haphazard turns ... I look first

 

[BobRyan]

Right.
I agree, you or anyone else, are mistaken on all those points.

Fine then I will stick with the Bible and will point out that the Bible details I am talking about are agreed to by both sides of the Sabbath/Sunday debate not just by the Bible Sabbath folks as a data-point for objectivity. As you claim all the world could be wrong about the Bible and just you are right - but I think that is very unlikely especially when we get to Bible details so obvious that both sides agree.

And the fact that the 7th day Sabbath was kept in Eden is not just me, not just Ex 20:11 , not just Mark 2:27 'made for mankind' vs the making of mankind for that 7th day of creation week, but also the Sunday scholars - admit this Bible fact about the 7th day Sabbath starting in Eden.

Did Adam and Eve keep the seventh day with God?

Most certainly -- Christ Himself speaks of both the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11 summarizes the Genesis 2:1-3 statement saying that THEN in Gen 2 is when it was made obligatory/binding/holy/set-apart.

On which day were they created?

The 6th day.

Ex 20:10 "the seventh day the Sabbath of the LORD " not "seventh-day of Adam is the Sabbath"

Exodus 16 "tomorrow is the Sabbath", so then God knew exactly what day of the week would be the Gen 2:1-3 7th day that He sanctified and made holy. So God informs the newly-freed slaves at Sinai "tomorrow is the Sabbath". And Christ Himself kept Sabbath - which as God the Son , He also would know what is the correct day -- and the Jews of His day also knew what day it was that maps to the Sabbath at Sinai.

And today - both Christians and Jews know which day is "week-day-1" and which day is the Sabbath that Christ kept while He was alive on Earth.

So we are just relying on the obvious details that everyone agrees with on both sides of the debate. Even Jews vs Christians - complete agreement on Bible-Sabbath vs week-day-1

 

[Tone]

Just to be clear, I make no claim that Sunday is a Sabbath. I agree that the seventh day is the Sabbath and that it was given to the Israelites alone through Moses. The Sabbath is a sign between God and the Israelites alone.

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.

Ezekiel 20:20
Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”

What do you do with this:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Messiah Yahshua you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah.
Ephesians 2:11-13

???????

 

[Tone]

whom else is it a sign? (no one else) It is a sign between them alone.

"[T]hem"...so you are not of Israel?

 

[BobRyan]

"[T]hem"...so you are not of Israel?

Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant made "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" -- who wants to be excluded from the New Covenant??

 

[Saint Steven]

What do you do with this:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Messiah Yahshua you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah.
Ephesians 2:11-13

???????

As usual, context is my best friend.

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Saint Steven]

"[T]hem"...so you are not of Israel?

No. I am not an Israelite, are you?

 

[BobRyan]

No. I am not an Israelite, are you?

-- who wants to be excluded from the New Covenant??
Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant made "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah"

Who wants to be excluded from being a gentile and from being of the house of Israel?

Isaiah 56
“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”

No wonder we see gentiles in Sabbath services in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18:4-10

--who want to be excluded from mankind?

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind"

No wonder BOTH the Sunday scholars and the Bible-Sabbath sides of this discussion agree that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are in the moral law of God that is till to this day applicable to all mankind from Eden to this very day.

It just does not "get any easier" than that.

 

[BobRyan]

-- who wants to be excluded from the New Covenant??
Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant made "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah"

Who wants to be excluded from being a gentile and from being of the house of Israel?

Isaiah 56
“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
6“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”

No wonder we see gentiles in Sabbath services in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18:4-10

--who want to be excluded from mankind?

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind"

No wonder BOTH the Sunday scholars and the Bible-Sabbath sides of this discussion agree that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are in the moral law of God that is till to this day applicable to all mankind from Eden to this very day.

It just does not "get any easier" than that.

No. I am not an Israelite, are you?

Not of the house of Israel? -- no New Covenant then. How sad my friend
Not a gentile? -- no Sabbath keeping either as in Is 56:6-8
Not a member of mankind? -- No Sabbath services for all eternity Is 66:23, No Sabbath made "for you" Mark 2:27

 

[Tone]

No. I am not an Israelite, are you?

Yes, I have been grafted in...I'm no gentile.

 

[BobRyan]

As usual, context is my best friend.

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

ok well then I guess you are grafted into the house of Israel - as Romans 11 said... how nice!

 

[Tone]

His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

One Nation in Yahshua ha Mashiach!

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I have been grafted in...I'm no gentile.

If you grafted a pear branch into an apple tree, would it cease being a pear branch?

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Saint Steven]

One Nation in Yahshua ha Mashiach!

Right. By setting aside the law. The dividing wall of hostility.

 

[Saint Steven]

Fine then I will stick with the Bible...

What did Jesus mean when he said man was not made for the Sabbath?