IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[Neogaia777]

When I became a Christian, I became conscious of my sin in my heart for the first time in my life. I had inner conviction of it, for the law was placed in my heart and mind. At times I got angry(I was young) I knew it was sin/breaking the law. I had unkind thoughts about others, I was breaking the law again. I had impure thoughts, I breaking the law again. I did not love many people in my heart(I didn't hate them), that would be especially true of any enemy, those who were unkind to me. I was breaking the moral law yet again. Are you seriously stating you have transcended all of this? I had felt alive once without the law, for there was no condemnation then, but when the law was placed inside of me, sin consciousness sprang to life and I died, felt condemned...…

I am no time traveller BTW. Its all there in romans ch7

Me too brother...

Some may not have died yet...

God Bless!

 

[Archippus]

Me too brother...

Some may not have died yet...

God Bless!

You know, when I was young, I doubted if I could be a Christian because of all my imperfections(probably as you did) However, if you are that conscious of your shortcomongs/sin it is proof you are saved for you only get such heartfelt conviction of sin if the law is placed within you, and once that has happened you have been born again.
I would be more concerned for people who like to insinuate they never commit sin, for there can be no hiding from the law placed in your most inward parts

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some would do well to remember:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

I am judging the false belief by Biblical standards and not you personally.

 

[Archippus]

I am judging the false belief by Biblical standards and not you personally.

You do not understand the message Jason. I guess your head is just crammed full of theology(errant theology) You cannot step back and see the reality. It is a shame. You cannot, nor do you live up to the standard you demand of others

 

[Neogaia777]

You know, when I was young, I doubted if I could be a Christian because of all my imperfections(probably as you did) However, if you are that conscious of your shortcomongs/sin it is proof you are saved for you only get such heartfelt conviction of sin if the law is placed within you, and once that has happened you have been born again.
I would be more concerned for people who like to insinuate they never commit sin, for there can be no hiding from the law placed in your most inward parts

Or teach others that they must never commit any sin at all either, Isn't this where Jesus is supposed to say "Hypocrites!"...? Anyway, and place that burden on them and show them a false, dead (dead end) way... Not using the law for it's right and "truly righteous" and intended purpose...

God Bless!

 

[Archippus]

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i]'>[i] through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 – he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the ‘law’ that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Rom3:20-30

What would some have thought after reading what Paul wrote? ''Well if I am justified/righteous apart from observing the law, I can act as I want and sin as much as I want and it does not matter''(as some would also believe today) Paul of course knew that, so in the final verse of the chapter he corrected such misguided thoughts:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law)? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law verse31

Now if Paul was only referring to non applicable old covenant law when he stated you have no righteousness of observing the law, he would not have written verse31, for no one has to uphold what is gone/not applicable do they.

 

[expos4ever]

What would some have thought after reading what Paul wrote? ''Well if I am justified/righteous apart from observing the law, I can act as I want and sin as much as I want and it does not matter(as some would also believe today) Paul of course knew that, so in the final verse of the chapter he corrected such misguided thoughts:

Here is the problem as I see it: you bring a certain assumption about what the basic issue on the table is, and that assumption informs how you interpret the text. Clearly you have to concede the following as at least a possibilities:

1. Paul's basic objective is to argue that membership in God's family is not limited to Jews (this is strongly supported by Romans 3:27-30)

2. Paul is not even concerned about fighting a belief that one can earn salvation by "good works" because no one he was writing to believed this in the first place. This is the argument of notable scholars like EP Sanders and NT Wright - they argue that the Jews saw the law as a sign they alone were God's people and not a ladder of good works that they need to climb to be justified.

If the above two assertions are correct we get this:

1. In 3:20, Paul is not saying "no one can be good enough to gain salvation via being a good follower of the moral law"; He is instead saying "no Jew gets to claim that his status as being part of that tribe who were given the Law is a promise of salvation". See what I mean?

2. In 3:31, Paul "upholds the Law" in the sense that he is saying that even though Jews cannot claim special status by being under the Law, the Law was still a good thing: I, Paul, affirm the fundamental goodness of the Law.

The above may not be as clear as it should be. And I certainly need to make a stronger defense of the first two points (identified as "possibilities").

But I think one thing is clear: we need to step back and critically examine our assumptions about the larger context - what is Paul really writing about?

 

[Archippus]

Here is the problem as I see it: you bring a certain assumption about what the basic issue on the table is, and that assumption informs how you interpret the text. Clearly you have to concede the following as at least a possibilities:

1. Paul's basic objective is to argue that membership in God's family is not limited to Jews (this is strongly supported by Romans 3:27-30)

2. Paul is not even concerned about fighting a belief that one can earn salvation by "good works" because no one he was writing to believed this in the first place. This is the argument of notable scholars like EP Sanders and NT Wright - they argue that the Jews saw the law as a sign they alone were God's people and not a ladder of good works that they need to climb to be justified.

If the above two assertions are correct we get this:

1. In 3:20, Paul is not saying "no one can be good enough to gain salvation via being a good follower of the moral law"; He is instead saying "no Jew gets to claim that his status as being part of that tribe who were given the Law is a promise of salvation". See what I mean?

2. In 3:31, Paul "upholds the Law" in the sense that he is saying that even though Jews cannot claim special status by being under the Law, the Law was still a good thing: I, Paul, affirm the fundamental goodness of the Law.

The above may not be as clear as it should be. And I certainly need to make a stronger defense of the first two points (identified as "possibilities").

But I think one thing is clear: we need to step back and critically examine our assumptions about the larger context - what is Paul really writing about?

In your point2) Paul relentlessly stated you cannot be justified by observing the law. I doubt he would go into such detail about it unless he was concerned that is what many of his readers tried to do. The Galatian church concerns this issue.

In Rom 3:20 Paul affirms no one can be declared righteous by obeying the law, because:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith
Gal3:10&11
You can only be justified by law if you faultlessly obey it.

In Rom 3:31 we come to the core of Pauls message. Live under a righteousness of faith in Christ, rather than obeying the law and sin will not b e your master/you will uphold the law.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

For:

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You know, when I was young, I doubted if I could be a Christian because of all my imperfections(probably as you did) However, if you are that conscious of your shortcomongs/sin it is proof you are saved for you only get such heartfelt conviction of sin if the law is placed within you, and once that has happened you have been born again.
I would be more concerned for people who like to insinuate they never commit sin, for there can be no hiding from the law placed in your most inward parts

This sounds kind of like the story of the young rich ruler (except he kept the Moral Law). Jesus told him that if he were to enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Jesus told him about the Moral Law (See Matthew 19:18-19). The young rich ruler did not say he did not keep the Moral Law. He said all these things (Commands) he had kept since his youth and then asked Jesus what thing he lacked (See Matthew 19:20). Jesus’s reply should shock you or make you freeze like a deer caught in a daze by the headlights of an oncoming car. For Jesus said,

“If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.” (Matthew 19:21).

The Bible continues to say:

“But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, “Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:22-23).
‭‭
Jesus did not say, “Don’t go.” “All you have to do is believe and don’t worry about selling your possessions.”

 

[Archippus]

This sounds kind of like the story of the young rich ruler (except he kept the Moral Law). Jesus told him that if he were to enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Jesus told him about the Moral Law (See Matthew 19:18-19). The young rich ruler did not say he did not keep the Moral Law. He said all these things (Commands) he had kept since his youth and then asked Jesus what thing he lacked (See Matthew 19:20). Jesus’s reply should shock you or make you freeze like a deer caught in a daze by the headlights of an oncoming car. For Jesus said,

“If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.” (Matthew 19:21).

The Bible continues to say:

“But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, “Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:22-23).
‭‭
Jesus did not say, “Don’t go.” “All you have to do is believe and don’t worry about selling your possessions.”

You haven't confirmed whether you ever get angry at anyone, whether you ever have negative/unkind thoughts about others, whether you love truly in your heart all who are unkind to you, as well as everyone else. Nor have you confirmed if you ever have any impure thoughts. Nor have you confirmed whether you yourself obey all of Christs literal commands, as you believe this is part of the Christians justification.
Did the young man allways obey the parts of the moral law I have mentioned? Hmmm, where does it say that?

 

[Archippus]

Its a good story concerning the rich young ruler, and one to much consider. He believed he obeyed the Ten Commandments, but would not do what it took to follow after Christ. He walked away. A lesson to be learnt their

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its a good story concerning the rich young ruler, and one to much consider. He believed he obeyed the Ten Commandments, but would not do what it took to follow after Christ. He walked away. A lesson to be learnt their

The lesson is that the young rich ruler was not willing to:

(a). Give up his many great possessions that defined him as being rich.

(b). Follow Jesus.

I am assuming that you don’t believe the above two things are a part of salvation because you believe a saint will always sin and that he is saved even in his sins because all future sin is paid for by having a belief alone on Jesus.

 

[Archippus]

The lesson is that the young rich ruler was not willing to:

(a). Give up his many great possessions that defined him as being rich.

(b). Follow Jesus.

I am assuming that you don’t believe the above two things are a part of salvation because you believe a saint will always sin and that he is saved even in his sins because all future sin is paid for by having a belief alone on Jesus.

You would not know what I may have given up, or how I have followed Jesus, we are here to discuss bible theology.
However, either you do not have anywhere near the conviction of what the moral law demands as I do, or, you are deliberately preaching what you know you cannot practice.

 

[Archippus]

It is good to repeat this. Paul stated to Christians, in the present tense:
The letter kills.

He was referring to the letter of the Ten Commandments/moral law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You would not know what I may have given up, or how I have followed Jesus, we are here to discuss bible theology.
However, either you do not have anywhere near the conviction of what the moral law demands as I do, or, you are deliberately preaching what you know you cannot practice.

So you believe that following Jesus and forsaking rich possessions is essential to salvation? What about the Moral Law? Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus referenced the Moral Law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is good to repeat this. Paul stated to Christians, in the present tense:
The letter kills.

He was referring to the letter of the Ten Commandments/moral law.

The letter kills because it is speaking of the Old Law. If you disobeyed the Moral Law in the OT, you could be killed by your own people (God’s people).

This is not the case in the New Covenant.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In your point2) Paul relentlessly stated you cannot be justified by observing the law. I doubt he would go into such detail about it unless he was concerned that is what many of his readers tried to do. The Galatian church concerns this issue.

In Rom 3:20 Paul affirms no one can be declared righteous by obeying the law, because:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith
Gal3:10&11
You can only be justified by law if you faultlessly obey it.

In Rom 3:31 we come to the core of Pauls message. Live under a righteousness of faith in Christ, rather than obeying the law and sin will not b e your master/you will uphold the law.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

For:

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses here and not the commandments given to us by Jesus and His followers.

 

[Archippus]

So you believe that following Jesus and forsaking rich possessions is essential to salvation? What about the Moral Law? Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus referenced the Moral Law.

Jason, you break the moral law, of that I can assure you. I have twice asked you if you have any negative/unkind thoughts about others, whether in your heart you love all those come into contact with, even those who may be unkind to you, whether you ever have any impurew thoughts. I have also asked you if you obey each and every literal command of Christ as you say believers must obey them as part of their justification as a Christian. You offer no response to these questions.
I can assure you of this, the people who are closest to Christ, do not go around inferring they never commit sin, or hardly ever commit any sin/break the moral law. Neither do such people understand the true Gospel message who do like to infer they never, or hardly ever commit any sin/break the moral law

 

[Archippus]

The letter kills because it is speaking of the Old Law. If you disobeyed the Moral Law in the OT, you could be killed by your own people (God’s people).

.

Nonsense

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, you break the moral law, of that I can assure you. I have twice asked you if you have any negative/unkind thoughts about others, whether in your heart you love all those come into contact with, even those who may be unkind to you, whether you ever have any impurew thoughts. I have also asked you if you obey each and every literal command of Christ as you say believers must obey them as part of their justification as a Christian. You offer no response to these questions.
I can assure you of this, the people who are closest to Christ, do not go around inferring they never commit sin, or hardly ever commit any sin/break the moral law. Neither do such people understand the true Gospel message

Notice how you keep making it about me? Even when I said I don’t discuss my personal life on the internet and that the Word is true regardless of whether men live for God or not. Again, if you lived during the time of Noah, you could say to him that it is impossible to keep God’s laws by pointing to the wicked world around you. But that world perished in their wickedness and they are an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter.

But with God, all things are possible just as Jesus said in Matthew 19.