IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

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[LoveGodsWord]

@ Jasson

Once again how is what you have posted above relevant to the discussion? Who is trying to get rightouesness through observing the law (actually the scripture says works of the law)?

As to COL 2 how can you understand the NEW COVENANT if you do not understand the OLD COVENANT? You mix up your Shadow laws with God's eternal law (10 Commandments).

Besides God's 4th Commandment which is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH written on stone, there were "SPECIAL" annual ceremonial Sabbath connected to the annual Jewish festivals in the OLD COVENANT written in the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT.

These ceremonial Sabbath were not God's 4th Commandment of the 10 Commandments but were connected to annual festivals and could fall on ANY DAY of the week depending on the yearly cycle (please read LEVITICUS 23;24-39).

These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbath were connected to..

* Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24)
* Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32)
* Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39)

These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day of the week and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

You have your Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT mixed up with God's ETERNAL LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of sin (Romans 3:20).

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COL 2 IN CONTEXT OF THE SHADOWS OF THE MOSAIC BOOK

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

Foretold in the OLD TESTAMENT….

DEUTERONOMY 10 [16] Circumcise therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT

The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

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COL 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase>the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means; ORDINANCE; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL laws>that was against us, WHICH WERE AGAINST , and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.
The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

HEBREWS 9:1 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings

HEBREWS 10:4 [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

EPHESIANS 2:15 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

HEBREWS 13:9 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

HEBREWS 10:1 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings).

NUMBERS 19:2 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

JOHN 6:55 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

NUMBERS 18:8 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ZECHARIAH 9:9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no waterVerse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12:12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant...blood

LUKE 22:19 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

Jesus did not come to change or destroy the law. The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN and the penalty of SIN in those who BELIEVE.

NO MORE ORDINANCES WRITTEN IN THE BOOK of the OLD COVENANT Ceremonial/Levitical/Sacrificial laws and animal sacrifices.

MORE SCRIPTURE CLICK ME?

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CONCLUSION: COL 2:16 is not talking about God's 10 Commandments or the 4th Commandment it is talking about CEREMONIAL ORDINACES written in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant for remission of SIN and annual festivals and HOLY DAYS and special SABBATHS of LEV 23 that pointed to Jesus and GOd's plan of salvation.


SIN is the transgression or breakin gof God's Commandments (Romans 7:7; James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:4). Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Right. That was a poor example that I provided. My bad. Jesus asking the man to carry his mattress home on the Sabbath might be a better example. It caused a HUGE issue.

Not really. The word in Greek is "mat", not bed. It was likely everything he owned. Again, the mat was not the issue. If you think He told the lame man to break Shabbat, then why later when He saw the man in the Temple did He tell him NOT to sin?

 

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[LoveGodsWord]

Not really Jason,

Anyone who continues in the life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM. First what is sin? Let's have a look at the scriptures

SIN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BREAKING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS (Summarized)

God said in Genesis 4:7 to Cain when he was angry because he did not worship God in his appointed way that by doing this it was sin. Jesus say the same in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow and teachings of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God. Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7).

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). Jacob knew about sin when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).

When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). When Moses was delayed on the Mount with God the children of ISRAEL made an Idol and worshipped it breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandment (Exodus 20:3-5). Moses said to them after he returned, you have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin (Exodus 32:30; Deuteronomy 9:16-18). Moses said to Aaron that by making an idol for the people to worship that it was a great sin (Exodus 32:21; 30). God would punish the children of Israel for their sin of Idol worship (Exodus 32:34).

God said to Moses in reference to breaking the 10 Commandments; Whosoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Exodus 32:33).

God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). Joshua says stealing is sin (Joshua 7:11). Achan knew when he was caught stealing that he sinned (Joshua 7:20).

When God's people forsake God to worship other God's, they also confess that they had sinned in breaking God's commandments (Judges 10:10;15). Samuel made atonement for God's people when they wanted to return to God confessing that they had sinned after they worshipped other Gods breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandments (1 Samuel 7:5; 12:10; Exodus 20:2-5).

King Saul wanted to kill David, but Jonathon spoke good of David saying to him no to sin against David by killing him (1 Samuel 19:4). David cut the skirt of King Saul in the cave and said to him that he could have killed him if he wanted to but did not sin against him by sparing his life (1 Samuel 24:11). King Saul replied that in wanting to kill David he had sinned (1 Samuel 26:21).

When David became king he desired Bathsheba who was another man’s wife and organized for her husband Uriah the Hitite to be sent to the front line of battle to be killed. God sent Nathan to David and David confessed in doing this that he had sinned in breaking God's 6th and 7th Commandment (Exodus 20:13:14). David confessed that he had sinned to breaking God's LAW (1 Samuel 12:13).

Now we can also go through all the evil Kings of Israel that sinned against God by following and worshipping other Gods which is also defined as sin in God's WORD but there would be too many scriptures (2 Kings 17:7). God testified that they served other Gods and idols sending them prophets to warn them of their sins (2 Kings 17:12-13; 16-17). We are also told that King Manasseh also broke God's 6th commandment and killed more innocent people then most others testifying that by doing this he had sinned (2 Kings 16:17). God continued to send prophets to warn his people of the consequences of sin (Nehemiah 9:30). God's people continued in their sins forsaking God's LAW (10 commandments) and in doing so God left them and Israel were overthrown and led into captivity to the other nations because they departed from God serving other God's and idols. Nehemiah knew this and prayed to God confessing their sins (Nehemiah 1:6-9). God's people continued to sin against God by worshipping other Gods despite the warning of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 44:18-23). In despite of God's Word teaching that God's people had forsaken the 10 commandments and sinned against God, going into captivity, God promised he would bring them back when they returned to him and heal them from their sins of breaking his commandments (Ezekiel 37:22-23).

Hosea testified by the Word of the Lord that God's people by making idols and worshipping other god's, lying, stealing, killing, committing adultery would receive the judgments of God because they had sinned by departing from the 10 Commandments (Hosea 4:1-19).

The word of the Lord came to Zephaniah saying that all those who continue in sin by worshipping other God's and breaking his commandments will be destroyed off the land because they have sinned against God (Zephaniah 1:2-17).

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Yep God’s WORD is very clear that sin is defined as breaking ANY of the 10 Commandments just as James, Paul and John all teach in the NEW TESTAMENT (James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). All the above scriptures show by example, quoting individual commandments from the 10 Commandments that SIN is indeed also defined as breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

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IS SIN STILL THE SAME IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbour in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

links to...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.

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CONCLUSION: Yep looks like breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments is indeed still sin in the OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENT.

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WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN SIN BY BREAKING ANY OF GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS COME JUDGMENT DAY?

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26]
[26], FOR IF WE SIN AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SIN, [27], BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

Did you catch it? IF we continue you break any of God's 10 commandments once we receive a KNOWLEDGE of the truth. You will be going into the firey lake.

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CONCLUSION: Yep as the scriptures teach, all who CONTINUE IN KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN by breaking ANY OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS will be going into the lake of fire.

If your tree does not bear the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE is will be cast down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 7:13-23). SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men everywhere to REPENT for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN is at HAND (Acts 17:30-31)

Sorry Jason, God's WORD disagrees with you

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not really Jason,

Only God's WORD is our judge. COL 2:16 is about not letting others judge you for keeping SABBATH{S} from annual Jewish festivals; not judging those not keeping them. God's 4th commandment along with all the 10 Commandments are repeated all through the NEW TESTAMENT and Jesus and the Apostles taught and kept all of them.

*ALL THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT linked CLICK ME.

*JESUS AND ALL THE APOSTLES TAUGHT AND KEPT ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE NT CLICK ME

Hope this helps

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. Observing the Sabbath is not the same as a Commandment for the Sabbath. No commandment for the Sabbath exists in the New Testament after the cross (Note: The New Covenant officially began with Christ's death). Anyways, you cannot provide a commandment for the Sabbath in the New Testament here because it doesn't exist.

In addition, no sin of breaking the Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament, either. If the Sabbath is as important as you say, then surely we should see it mentioned as a commandment in the NT with the consequences thereof. Referencing the OT does not count because we are not under the OT.

Oh, and Ellen G. White (of the SDA church) had a vision of the 4th command being highlighted. Of course she made many false prophecies that did not come to pass. The Bible says we are not to listen to a person who gives false prophecies.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No. Observing the Sabbath is not the same as a Commandment for the Sabbath.

Not really Jason,

EVERY COMMANDMENT is repeated in some form in the NEW TESTAMENT. THERE IS no commandment repeated word for word in the NEW TESTAMENT as our duty towards God (first four commandments). Yet all of them are repeated in some form or another in the NEW TESTAMENT.

Why would you think that every commandment needs to be repeated word for word as it is written in the OLD TESTAMENT for it to be accepted in the NEW TESTAMENT when everyone in the NEW TESTAMENT was keeping, teaching and obeying all the 10 Commandments and they were already given by God 4000 earlier?

Why would Jesus teach how to keep the SABBATH and PAUL warn against those not entering God's Sabbath rest who do not believe God's WORD and why would Jesus and all the Apostles who are our example keep God's 4th Commandment even after the death of Jesus if we are no longer to keep it?

Where is the scripture in the NEW TESTAMENT that says God's 4th Commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? Woops there is no scripture. Not looking good for some come judgment day when we are told that if we KNOWLINGLY break any of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in sin *JAMES 2:8-11

No commandment for the Sabbath exists in the New Testament after the cross (Note: The New Covenant officially began with Christ's death). Anyways, you cannot provide a commandment for the Sabbath in the New Testament here because it doesn't exist.

God's WORD disagrees with you.

HEBREWS 4:9-11 [9] So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is no commandment in the NEW TESTAMENT that says GOd's 4th Commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Where is the scripture Jason?

You mix up your Shadow laws from the Mosiac book of the covenant with God's eternal laws that give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and Evil; SIN and RIGHTOUSNESS (Romans 3:20; Psalms 19:7-9). How can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is?

Yep God's WORD says that there are 10 commandment (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4). Please show the scripture in the NEW TESTAMENT that says the Nine commandments? There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

In addition, no sin of breaking the Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament, either. If the Sabbath is as important as you say, then surely we should see it mentioned as a commandment.

Already shown in HEBREWS and all the scriptures showing that if we break any of the 10 Commandments we stand before God guilty of sin.

*JESUS AND ALL THE APOSTLES TAUGHT AND KEPT ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE NT CLICK ME

Ellen G. White (of the SDA church) had a vision of the 4th command being highlighted. Of course she made many false prophecies that did not come to pass. The Bible says we are not to listen to a person who gives false prophecies.

Yet here you still are not able to respond to a single scripture and all your posted scripture has been shown to be taken out of context?

Sorry Jason God's WORD disagrees with you. Let me know when you have some more scripture to share

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really Steve,

The CONTEXT of ROMANS 2:14-15 is in ROMANS 2:12-13. Thats what your leaving out.

ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

v14-15 is continuing on the same thoughts from v12-13 showing that LOVE fulfills the LAW. While v12-13 show that there is consequences for breaking God's LAW when there is no LOVE. None have LOVE without God for GOD is LOVE (1 John 4:8)

Sorry Steve out of sight out of mind does not work in the NEW COVENANT.

There are statements in all four verses that indicate that there are those with the law and those without the law. Isn't it your contention that the law is for everyone? You are not in agreement with "God's WORD" on this.

What is the difference between "apart from the law" and "under the law"? (vs 12)

The verse is showing a contrast between the two types of people, those apart from the law, and those under the law. How could "under the law" mean under the "condemnation" of the law in this verse? That would mean that those that sin apart from the law are not under its condemnation. How does that work?

Romans 2:12-15
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really. The word in Greek is "mat", not bed. It was likely everything he owned. Again, the mat was not the issue. If you think He told the lame man to break Shabbat, then why later when He saw the man in the Temple did He tell him NOT to sin?

That was in reference to what had caused him to be an invalid for thirty-eight years. If he continued in sin, something worse would happen. Here is the exact quote.

John 5:14
Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” ​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Consider this. The man who was healed had no idea who healed him, because Jesus had slipped away into the crowd. (vs 13) Jesus knew he had created a situation. What was the situation? We are told in verse nine. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath. Why is that an important fact in the story? We are told in verse ten. “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There are statements in all four verses that indicate that there are those with the law and those without the law. Isn't it your contention that the law is for everyone? You are not in agreement with "God's WORD" on this.

Not at all Romans 3:9-19 build in Romans 2:4-13. Paul is saying that both Jew and Gentiles are all under sin, for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. In this context 3v19 "UNDER THE LAW" means to be guilty before God of breaking it. 2v12 is saying that you can know or not know God's LAW but either say there is consequences. Those that do not have have the law will perish without the law. Those that know the law will be judged by it.

What is the difference between "apart from the law" and "under the law"? (vs 12)

Mentioned earlier "apart" is translated "without" so means those without the law shall also perish without the law. Those that have sinned by knowing the law shall be judged by the law.

The verse is showing a contrast between the two types of people, those apart from the law, and those under the law. How could "under the law" mean under the "condemnation" of the law in this verse? That would mean that those that sin apart from the law are not under its condemnation. How does that work?

No it isn't it is showing a contrast between those who have the law and those that do not.

ROMANS 3:9-19 builds on ROMANS 3:4-13. Let's look at all the scriptures together...

ROMANS 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13[, Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY MOUTH [JEW AND GENTILE] may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD [JEW AND GENTILE] MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

[UNDER SIN of breaking God's LAW makes you UNDER IT GUILTY BEFORE GOD WEATHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT; Because all are UNDER SIN.]

[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's start with v9 which is the CONTEXT. This shows your interpretation of the scriptures is not a correct one brother. It cannot be applicable to just the JEWS because the CONTEXT of v19 in v9 is that BOTH JEW AND GREEK ARE ALL UNDER SIN. Paul says he proved this earlier. WHERE did he prove that BOTH JEWS and GREEKS are ALL UNDER SIN?

Let's have a look where Paul proved that both JEWS and GENTILES are all "UNDER SIN"

ROMANS 2:6-13
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

ROMANS 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN

PAUL proved this earlier in ROMANS 2:6-13. Where he shows that both JEWS AND GENTILES ARE ALL UNDER SIN and stand guilty before God of breaking his LAW.

Can you see now brother that you are the one here that is leaving out CONTEXT from ROMANS 3:19? I write this only as a help to you.

.................

Now that CONTEXT has been established in ROMANS 2:6-13 and ROMANS 3:9-20. Let's look at the scriptures and see what it means to be "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3:19.

ROMANS 3:19 [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED [both JEW AND GENTILE], and ALL THE WORLD [both JEW AND GENTTILE] MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

Who does PAUL say is "UNDER THE LAW" both JEW AND GENTILE because BOTH JEW AND GENTILE [ALL THE WORLD; EVERY MOUTH] stand guilty before GOD of breaking it (Romans 2:6-13). Both JEW and GENTILES are all under SIN there is none good no not one (Romans 3:9; Romans 3:10)

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "UNDER THE LAW"?

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this case means to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking the LAW (sin). FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Romans 3:20) and this is what God's LAW teaches us. That we are all sinners in need of a Saviour

Can you see the CONTEXT you have left out and what ROMANS 3:19 means to be UNDER THE LAW? It means to stand guilty before GOD of breaking it *SIN and applied to both JEWS AND GENTILES [3v19 EVERY MOUTH STOPPED; ALL THE WORLD GUILTY because all are UNDER SIN; broken God's LAW]


Hope this helps brother.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not at all Romans 3:9-19 build in Romans 2:4-13. Paul is saying that both Jew and Gentiles are all under sin, for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. In this context 3v19 "UNDER THE LAW" means to be guilty before God of breaking it. 2v12 is saying that you can know or not know God's LAW but either say there is consequences. Those that do not have have the law will perish without the law. Those that know the law will be judged by it.



Mentioned earlier "apart" is translated "without" so means those without the law shall also perish without the law. Those that have sinned by knowing the law shall be judged by the law.



No it isn't it is showing a contrast between those who have the law and those that do not.

ROMANS 3:9-19 builds on ROMANS 3:4-13. Let's look at all the scriptures together...

ROMANS 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13[, Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY MOUTH [JEW AND GENTILE] may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD [JEW AND GENTILE] MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

[UNDER SIN of breaking God's LAW makes you UNDER IT GUILTY BEFORE GOD WEATHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT; Because all are UNDER SIN.]

[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's start with v9 which is the CONTEXT. This shows your interpretation of the scriptures is not a correct one brother. It cannot be applicable to just the JEWS because the CONTEXT of v19 in v9 is that BOTH JEW AND GREEK ARE ALL UNDER SIN. Paul says he proved this earlier. WHERE did he prove that BOTH JEWS and GREEKS are ALL UNDER SIN?

Let's have a look where Paul proved that both JEWS and GENTILES are all "UNDER SIN"

ROMANS 2:6-13
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

ROMANS 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN

PAUL proved this earlier in ROMANS 2:6-13. Where he shows that both JEWS AND GENTILES ARE ALL UNDER SIN and stand guilty before God of breaking his LAW.

Can you see now brother that you are the one here that is leaving out CONTEXT from ROMANS 3:19? I write this only as a help to you.

.................

Now that CONTEXT has been established in ROMANS 2:6-13 and ROMANS 3:9-20. Let's look at the scriptures and see what it means to be "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3:19.

ROMANS 3:19 [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED [both JEW AND GENTILE], and ALL THE WORLD [both JEW AND GENTTILE] MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

Who does PAUL say is "UNDER THE LAW" both JEW AND GENTILE because BOTH JEW AND GENTILE [ALL THE WORLD; EVERY MOUTH] stand guilty before GOD of breaking it (Romans 2:6-13). Both JEW and GENTILES are all under SIN there is none good no not one (Romans 3:9; Romans 3:10)

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "UNDER THE LAW"?

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this case means to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking the LAW (sin). FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Romans 3:20) and this is what God's LAW teaches us. That we are all sinners in need of a Saviour

Can you see the CONTEXT you have left out and what ROMANS 3:19 means to be UNDER THE LAW? It means to stand guilty before GOD of breaking it *SIN and applied to both JEWS AND GENTILES [3v19 EVERY MOUTH STOPPED; ALL THE WORLD GUILTY because all are UNDER SIN; broken God's LAW]


Hope this helps brother.

All this seems to confirm my point. There are some who are without (apart from) the law. Is it not your contention that the law is for everyone? (not abolished)

Who are these who "have sinned without law" that "shall also perish without law"? (KJV)

How can you sin without law, from your perspective?
How can you perish without law, from your perspective?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

All this seems to confirm my point. There are some who are without (apart from) the law. Is it not your contention that the law is for everyone? (not abolished)

Hi Steve, no it does not confirm your believe that God's LAW is abolished. It simply says all [ALL THE WORLD] are under sin for breaking God's LAW and stand guilty before God wheather they know God's LAW or do not know it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hi Steve, no it does not confirm your believe that God's LAW is abolished. It simply says all are under sin for breaking God's LAW and stand guilty before God wheather they know God's LAW or do not know it.

Who are these who "have sinned without law" that "shall also perish without law"? (KJV)

How can you sin without law, from your perspective? (no law, no transgression)
How can you perish without law, from your perspective? (no transgression, no condemanation)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Who are these who "have sinned without law" that "shall also perish without law"? (KJV)

Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law. If we do not know the law we still sin and break it in God's eyes.

How can you sin without law, from your perspective? (no law, no transgression)

Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law. If we do not know the law we still sin and break it in God's eyes.

How can you perish without law, from your perspective? (no transgression, no condemanation)

Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law. If we do not know the law we still sin and break it in God's eyes.

ROMANS 2:12 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Without the law = Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law
Sinned in the law = Believers who know the law

ROMANS 3:9-10 [9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:

[JEW BELIEVER and GENTILE UNBELIEVER]

ROMANS 3:19 [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY MOUTH [JEW AND GENTILE] may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD [JEW AND GENTILE] MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3?

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this case means to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking the LAW (sin). FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Romans 3:20) and this is what God's LAW teaches us. That we are all sinners in need of a Saviour

Hope this helps

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That was in reference to what had caused him to be an invalid for thirty-eight years. If he continued in sin, something worse would happen. Here is the exact quote.

John 5:14
Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” ​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Consider this. The man who was healed had no idea who healed him, because Jesus had slipped away into the crowd. (vs 13) Jesus knew he had created a situation. What was the situation? We are told in verse nine. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath. Why is that an important fact in the story? We are told in verse ten. “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”

My point was that if, as you say, He told the man to break Shabbat, why would He even bother to tell him not to sin. Remember, the Pharisees also said He should not heal on Shabbat. I think the only thing that could prove your point was when He made mud on Shabbat to heal the blind man…oh, but wait, there is that doing good works on the Sabbath thing again

 

[Saint Steven]

Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law. If we do not know the law we still sin and break it in God's eyes.

Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law. If we do not know the law we still sin and break it in God's eyes.

Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law. If we do not know the law we still sin and break it in God's eyes.

ROMANS 2:12 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Without the law = Gentile UNBELIEVERS who do not know the law
Sinned in the law = Believers who know the law

ROMANS 3:9-10 [9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:

[JEW BELIEVER and GENTILE UNBELIEVER]

ROMANS 3:19 [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY MOUTH [JEW AND GENTILE] may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD [JEW AND GENTILE] MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3?

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this case means to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking the LAW (sin). FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Romans 3:20) and this is what God's LAW teaches us. That we are all sinners in need of a Saviour

Hope this helps

I thought you also contended that those who are ignorant of the law are not condemned by it. How could they have "sinned without law"?

 

[Saint Steven]

My point was that if, as you say, He told the man to break Shabbat, why would He even bother to tell him not to sin. Remember, the Pharisees also said He should not heal on Shabbat. I think the only thing that could prove your point was when He made mud on Shabbat to heal the blind man…oh, but wait, there is that doing good works on the Sabbath thing again

Where does the law say that doing good works on the Sabbath (that would otherwise be a violation) is lawful? It seems that you are confusing the law and the law of Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I thought you also contended that those who are ignorant of the law are not condemned by it. How could they have "sinned without law"?

Nope, there is a difference between being an "UNBELIEVER" who does not know God and someone who is a believer growing in grace as a babe in Christ that does not know everything that God requires of them through his WORD. In times of this ignoreance God winks at until a knowledge of the truth is come.