IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[klutedavid]

Hello brother Der Alter, nice to see you again. Your only repeating yourself now brother without addressing any of the scriptures posted to you. You simply deny the scriptures posted as if what you say magically makes God's WORD disappear.

It seems in your view of Acts 15, God has a different law for JEWISH believers and a different law for gentile believers? You do not really believe that now do you brother Der Alter? What you are saying is that Jewish believers need to by faith OBEY God's 10 Commandments but Gentile believers have their own law and are free to break God's 10 Commandment? I am sure you do not believe this brother, this belief goes against all the teachings of GOD's WORD in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scripture and is something that Jesus and the Apostles never taught.

Can you see your error and where your understanding of ACTS 15 is leading you? Lawlessness is never taught in God's WORD and if you believe this you have to deny 99% of the bibls. The topic and CONTEXT of ACTS 15 is CIRCUMCISION as a requirement for salvation. Not wheather God's 10 Commandments should be obeys or broken. (Posted earlier below)

ACTS 15:1:21
[1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved.

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NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.

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[2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

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NOTE: ACTS 15:2 there was much arguing over the claims of the Jewish believers who are claiming that unless the gentiles are circumcised they cannot be saved. They then determined that Paul and Barnabas must go to Jerusalem to the Apostles and elders ABOUT THIS QUESTION. Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED.

They then travelled to Jerusalem about this question to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharasees stating their cas first..

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[5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

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NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation.

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[6], And the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
[7], And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

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NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being uncircumcised.

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[9], And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10], Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

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NOTE: They came to the conclusion then that salvation is not by being circumcised but be what circumcision pointed to. A new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here...

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Pauls writings in to the CORITHIANS do not make any sense.

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

The scripture above is a contradiction of how some interpret the outcome of ACTS 15

You do not believe brother Der Alter, that we are now free to break any of God's 10 Commandments now do you?

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[12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
[13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
[14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
[17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
[18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[19], Therefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them, who from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20], But that we write unto them, that they abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21], For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

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CONCLUSION So the conclusion of the matter. v19-20 We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. They are new converts they will learn more about God as Moses is preached when? EVERY SABBATH. WE just tell the new believers because they will be learning every Sabbath to abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

NOPE nothing written about the 10 Commandments in this chapter. Here is what PAUL says of the matter here...

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

Yep you may need to revisit your thinking of ACTS 15. CIRCUMCISION is not the 10 Commandments. It is from the Shadow laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

Hope this helps.

Hello LGW.

You seem to be adding to the scripture.

NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation.

Acts 15:5
...“It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Where does the scripture say that, 'the Law of Moses', is the shadow law?

The point of Acts 15, is not that circumcision saves anyone. Rather, the pharisee Christians were claiming that Gentile believers needed to obey the law of Moses.

I will print it again.

Acts 15:5
...“It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

 

[klutedavid]

Not really David the verses were clearly marked out and verse 10 makes no difference to the meaning of v9 and v11. The point was being made that there remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath v9 and we should labor to enter into it v11.

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Why would you think I am not comfortable with v10? I am very comfortable and happy to discuss it if you wish to. But David making sly remarks and insinuations as if I was intentionally trying to hide something is not very becoming or christian as it portrays a motive that I never had and judges me for something I never did. It is ok maybe you did not mean it.

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD.

Which Bible has the following translation?

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't want to argue with you endlessly on this, but I have to ask that if you truly believe that the laws are the same between the Old and the New...

What do you think Paul is saying in Galatians 5:2?

For he says,

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Also see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

It sounds like circumcision is being condemned here. But if it is a part of the faith, then why is Paul saying if they be circumcised... Christ will profit them nothing?

Also, when Christ died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom. This was letting us know that the laws on the priesthood and the animal sacrifices had ended. Meaning the Old Covenant is no more.

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." (Hebrews 10:9).

In other words, this verse above here is saying that Jesus takes away the first covenant (i.e. Old Testament) so that He might establish the second covenant (i.e. the New Testament).

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
Romans 7:6 says:

(a) We are delivered from the Law.
(b) We are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

What do you make of all these things? Do you just ignore them or re-write what they say?

I know there are groups like the Ebionites who just deny the words of Paul. IMO ~ It would just be easier to do that in order to hold to a belief that we have to obey both all of the Old and the New. But I am capable of denying God's Word. I know it is divine in origin.

Of course a new covenant has a new mediator and it has a new terms (instead of circumcision we have Yeshua's blood). Also since there is no Temple, other things have also changed.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

A new covenant is a new agreement. You can't change where something is written and then declare it is a new covenant agreement? The agreement has to change for it to be a change of covenant.

I never said differently...of course there are new terms...

 

[Neogaia777]

I never said differently...of course there are new terms...

A new and better (and far more superior) way... same goal or aim (NC (commandments) and OC (commandments)), but different ways, and different terms...

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

Not really David the verses were clearly marked out and verse 10 makes no difference to the meaning of v9 and v11. The point was being made that there remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath v9 and we should labor to enter into it v11.

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Why would you think I am not comfortable with v10? I am very comfortable and happy to discuss it if you wish to. But David making sly remarks and insinuations as if I was intentionally trying to hide something is not very becoming or christian as it portrays a motive that I never had and judges me for something I never did. It is ok maybe you did not mean it.

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD.

I was not being sly, nor was I insinuating anything. I directly accused you of adding to the scripture.

This passage is not talking about obeying the Sabbath day.

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Entering that rest (His rest) is a rest from your own futile works.

'For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works'

That was the verse you omitted, the verse that identifies the subject the author was highlighting. Entering the rest God has created and not your own dead works.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yeah, it makes one think about SDA (and or other churches who say that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin). Ellen G. White had a vision of the 4th commandment being highlighted by a light on the two tablets of stone given to Moses by God. Yet, many of her predictions have not come to pass (and were proven to be false). God's Word says if a prophet's words do not come to pass just one time, we are not to listen to them.

Anyways, I really liked the movie Hacksaw Ridge because I am a New Testament Pacifist (who believes in just war or justice by the hands of governments), but after this thread, it truly makes me realize the serious danger of the SDA church and those like it that promote Sabbath keeping as a part of salvation (When the NT in no way clearly talks about that). It is like those who were trying to promote "Circumicision" for salvation. Paul condemned those who did that. For circumcision is a part of the Mosaic Law, just like the weekly Sabbath is a part of the Mosaic Law (and not the law given to us by Christ).

We agree more than we disagree IMO regarding you post above. My only question to you from your post above is WHAT do you consider is "the law given to us by Christ" and HOW do we show we follow it?? BTW, there is nothing wrong with circumcision per se but it will not provide eternal salvation. That is what Paul meant.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello LGW.
You seem to be adding to the scripture.

Really David? Now what do you think I am adding to scripture? How bout you prove your claims instead of making random statements? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

LGW wrote: NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation.

...“It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Where does the scripture say that, 'the Law of Moses', is the shadow law?

CIRCUMCISION is from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) not from the 10 COMMANDMENTS. Please find circumcision written in the 10 Commandments? (Exodus 20:3-17). They were being directed to the law of Moses for CIRCUMCISION.

Where does the scripture say that, 'the Law of Moses', is the shadow law?

EXODUS 24:7 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

HEBREWS 10:1-10 [1] FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME., and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. [DAY OF ATONEMENT; Leviticus 23].
[4], For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:
[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], Then said I, See, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
[8], Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither had pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10], By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Is it talking about Gods 10 commandments or the MOSIAC BOOK OF THE LAW (Deuteronomy 31:24)?

You you mix up the Shadow laws from the MOSIAC BOOK of the COVENANT with God's eternal law that gives as a knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; 7:7; Pslams 19:7-9)

The point of Acts 15, is not that circumcision saves anyone. Rather, the pharisee Christians were claiming that Gentile believers needed to obey the law of Moses. I will print it again.

Acts 15:5
...“It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

David your twisting the scriptures. Where do you think the law of CIRCUMCISION comes from? Yep you guessed it the law of Moses from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) not God's 10 Commandments.

Guess that did not go to well for you now did it Dave? God does not have one set of laws for the Jewish Christains and a different set of laws for the Gentils Christians in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-27). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12)

Hope this helps

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one. But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord. “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people. “And there will be no need at all for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest. “For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer.” When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.
I will give them one heart and I will put a new spirit within them; I will remove the hearts of stone from their bodies and I will give them tender hearts, so that they may follow my statutes and observe my regulations and carry them out. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.
The work of the Holy Spirit is internal, changing our hearts from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh. He creates in us a love for God and a desire to obey His commands. As a result, we can draw near to Him, entering into an intimate relationship free from fear and dread. The New Covenant enables us to become His people, and He becomes our God. This kind of intimacy is something that the Old Covenant could never produce. The New removes the curse, not just a cover for sin.

I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.

I will remove the hearts of stone from their bodies and I will give them tender hearts, so that they may follow my statutes and observe my regulations and carry them out. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.

He here is speaking to other Jews...so we know what "laws" mean.

 

[Saint Steven]

No one is trying to gain rightouesness through trying to keep the law or teaching this to anyone here. The scriptures you have posted are talking about the OLD and NEW COVENANTS. They do not suport what you are teaching here. If you do not know what the OLD TESTAMENT teaches and what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is when you have lost your key that unlocks the door of the NEW (John 10:9)?

HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE KNOW HIM [JESUS]

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

ROMANS 1:5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

ROMANS 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. [2], How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

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DOES FAITH ABOLISH GOD'S LAW?

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

Hope this helps

What you are teaching is completely unbiblical. Where is this message in the Bible? Where are the gentiles taught that understanding the old covenant is the key to understanding the new covenant?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What you are teaching is completely unbiblical. Where is this message in the Bible? Where are the gentiles taught that understanding the old covenant is the key to understanding the new covenant?

Yet here you are still not being able to respond to the scriptures shared with you. No one is saying what you have posted above.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yet here you are still not being able to respond to the scriptures shared with you. No one is saying what you have posted above.

That's the problem. Your problem, not my problem.

What you are teaching is completely unbiblical. Where is this message in the Bible? Where are the gentiles taught that understanding the old covenant is the key to understanding the new covenant?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's the problem. Your problem, not my problem.

What you are teaching is completely unbiblical. Where is this message in the Bible? Where are the gentiles taught that understanding the old covenant is the key to understanding the new covenant?

You seem to be making things up now that no one has said to you. Do you have any scripture to share?

 

[Saint Steven]

God's WORD is God's WORD you have it or you do not. You have chosen to ignore the posts and scriptures in them sent to help you. These are God's WORD'S not mine. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you. It is the WORD of GOD that will be our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48

Again the claim that somehow it is God's WORD when you quote the Bible but not God's WORD when I quote the Bible. Why do you elevate your posts above the posts of everyone else?

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry my friend I have no database. I spent a lot of time looking at all your posts section by section and scripture by scriptures and looking at the context you left out. Happy to discuss them further if you want. You seem like you still wish to discuss them. If you do not it is ok as well. Maybe you can prayerfully read them in your own time. God's WORD is not false information but the truth and we should believe and follow it (Romans 3:4).

Definition:
A database is an organized collection of data, stored and accessed electronically.

 

[Saint Steven]

You seem to be making things up now that no one has said to you. Do you have any scripture to share?

How could I have any scripture to share? You have stolen God's WORD and now claim to be the sole owner. (in your mind anyway)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Again the claim that somehow it is God's WORD when you quote the Bible but not God's WORD when I quote the Bible. Why do you elevate your posts above the posts of everyone else?

Hello Steve,

We should not point people to the teachings of men over the Word of God. For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. Who am I that he should choose me out of the world? I am no one but he is all. If I did not believe him I would not know him. What can I do without him? He is love and now I love. I follow him now because I love him who first loved me. I do not judge you but His Word will judge us because they are there for all to see. All are welcome to see and hear God's Word, however many are called but few are chosen.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Definition:
A database is an organized collection of data, stored and accessed electronically.

I have an electronic bible and God's Holy Spirit of truth

 

[Saint Steven]

Don't waste time pasting reams of data from your database in your posts. I only read the first few lines. If you actually have something important to say, that's is where you should put it. I'm not interesting in being reprogrammed to your personal way of thinking. Plain and simple. You are wrong in your claims.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have an electronic bible and God's Holy Spirit of truth

So, not only have you stolen the Bible, you have also stolen the Holy Spirit? What do you have planned for your next heist? The whole trinity? Oh wait, you don't believe in the Trinity.