Is it really necessary to go to Church?

[Aibrean]

I already quoted Jesus who said whoever doesn't believe and IS NOT BAPTIZED will be condemned. If you have opportunities for baptism and don't take them, it is not good. It's rejecting baptism. There is a difference between the thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized and you.

The Holy Spirit wouldn't keep you from baptism. The only one capable of that is you. Why would God want to keep you from working his grace? It makes no sense.

 

[Doubting Tomas]

Here is a quote of Jesus about baptism.

John3:5Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"born again of water and the Holy Ghost"

I take the Holy Ghost very seriously, otherwise you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Did He say, "If you have opportunities for baptism and don't take them, it is not good. It's rejecting baptism."
I did not read the way you've mentioned, and I've wrote the reason previously - I am tired of writing many times here the same thing over and oven if no one pays attention to write whatever he/she likes to say.
I don't believe that is how we do here.

 

[Aibrean]

Here is a quote of Jesus about baptism.

John3:5Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"born again of water and the Holy Ghost"

Yes...he's describing baptism. Yes, he is saying you have to be baptized to go to heaven. However, the thief on the cross was not able to be baptized and yet Jesus told him that he would see him in paradise.

Why do you not allow yourself to be baptized when Jesus said unless a man be born of water and spirit he can't enter the kingdom of God?

 

[Doubting Tomas]

>The Holy Spirit wouldn't keep you from baptism.

How do you know that? Are you the Holy Spirit?
I never talk that way as if I know Him, but God may work that way you said, who knows.

Ephesians 1:3-1:14
11 All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.12 Let us, then, who were the first to hope in Christ, praise God's glory!

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you,

>The only one capable of that is you.

I don't look at the words of God in that way, it seems to me after what I've done all I can, it's up to God will, you say I am capable, you don't know what I've done.

>Why would God want to keep you from working his grace? It makes no sense.

This may be the answer.
1 Corinthians 1:27
God purposely chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise,

 

[Doubting Tomas]

>Why do you not allow yourself to be baptized when Jesus said unless a man be born of water and spirit he can't enter the kingdom of God?

I've already answered to that.
Not only you don't know what I wrote, but also you are missing what "spirit" means.

To be honest, I don't care if I enter the Kingdom, if I can find the heart of God.
If you can find it, you are already in the Kingdom, I believe that's what Jesus says in the Bible.
The rest of religion things belong to human hearts.

 

[Aibrean]

>The Holy Spirit wouldn't keep you from baptism.

How do you know that? Are you the Holy Spirit?

If God commands us to be baptized, it would be contradictory for him to keep you from it. He is NOT the author of confusion and NOT a liar.

I don't look at the words of God in that way, it seems to me after what I've done all I can, it's up to God will, you say I am capable, you don't know what I've done.

Nothing can't be forgiven unless you permanently reject Christ. Baptism allows God's work in you. If you don't allow baptism, you aren't allowing his will to be done.

You can't find God's heart without finding God. The flesh can't discern that which is spirit and God only hears the voices of his children.

 

[Doubting Tomas]

deleted by Tomas

 

[Doubting Tomas]

deleted by Tomas

 

[Aibrean]

He did it to fulfill righteousness.


Matthew 3:13-15
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented.

 

[Celtic D]

Thankfully at the end of the day it is God who judges our salvation and not mere humans!

 

[Doubting Tomas]

And simply obeying Jesus is the only way to God.
For we never know what God's plan is.
The commands of God cannot have been denied even by Jesus, however, love of God is greater than the commands of Moses through God in NT.
The priority of the choice, love of God or the commands of God , separates Christianity from Judaism.
Which one are you?

 

[LilLamb219]

I'm sorry but I have a really difficult time understanding you in some of your postings. I'm not sure what the above one is saying or asking really.

 

[Doubting Tomas]

Thank you, LilLamb219.

I appreciate you post.
Because I did not explain thoroughly and I've written with bad English, so this gives me opportunity to make it clear.

>The priority of the choice, love of God or the commands of God , separates Christianity from Judaism.

I should have written," Love of God or the commands of Moses through God, the choice of these two separates Christianity from Judaism.

If anyone have read the Bible and became a Christian, I think many knows what Jesus came here this world for.
One of the biggest reason, if not the biggest, why Jesus' teaching was called New Testament was that OT was to obey the commands of Moses through God but that was not good enough in Jesus' eyes, so Jesus gave us a new commands, " love you neighbors" to fulfill the law of Moses in NT.

Matthew7:12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

As Celtic D says,"Thankfully at the end of the day it is God who judges our salvation and not mere humans!", it seems to me, the best we can do is that obey the law of Moses and love our neighbors according to God's love and the rest is up to God's judgment not our decision of what kind of ritual is necessary to get in Heaven.

 

[Aibrean]

I never said the commands were from the law of Moses.

 

[LilLamb219]

Doubting Tomas, you do realize there is plenty of Gospel that points to the Savior in the OT as well. I mean, that is how we are all saved, by grace through faith, not by works. No one was saved by obeying God in the OT. They were all saved the same way we are today, by grace through faith.

 

[Doubting Tomas]

Doubting Tomas, you do realize there is plenty of Gospel that points to the Savior in the OT as well. I mean, that is how we are all saved, by grace through faith, not by works. No one was saved by obeying God in the OT. They were all saved the same way we are today, by grace through faith.

>They were all saved the same way we are today, by grace through faith.

I am not sure who are "They"?
Not those people believed God in OT, which you've mentioned already.
We all are saved by grace through faith, I believe that too.

But, you know what?
I came here trying to learn something I've never known about love of Jesus and to tell my testimony which God already knew.
However, my testimony was insulted by saying a pastor refused my communion because I refused him not baptism, which was understandable.
The man welcomed me for communion and the man banned me from his communion.
I've never thought communion belongs to a man.
How that could be understandable?
And I will be condemned if I don't receive baptism was said according to the script.
It sounds true since the Book says so.
However, I do not believe that is a Christian attitude since love of Jesus is our goal to achieve.
I wouldn't even think that some one goes against God will be condemned even the Bible says so.
Simply, it's not my decision to declare.
We are better off Christian when it come to judgment, leave it to God.

Ironically, I've never dreamed this forum treated my opinion with the word of "condemned."
Let's put "Love of Jesus" first in our messages, however, if we don't know what is God's love and how to give love of Jesus to our neighbors, what's good to talk about the God's command.

I came here to find deeper understanding of love of Jesus and find out how to give it to my neighbors, by hearing experiences of others.
I may need to put the question up.

Farewell to this thread.

 

[LilLamb219]

We have given you nothing but love in our responses.

We still hold that you are indeed denying the truth about baptism in search of something that is...well, not what the rest of Christiandom believes...holding out for a John? I mean, c'mon, truly, Jesus sent the disciples out to go forth and baptize. You're telling Jesus NO you don't want it because you're waiting for someone else to show up and do it for you? ANYONE can baptize although the vocation is given to pastors to do so. You are the one who has something in his head that really isn't biblical. Get thee baptized my friend and stop fretting about someone denying you communion, which is also something that was done correctly. Only the baptized should receive communion.

 

[Doubting Tomas]

>Only the baptized should receive communion.

I've pointed out the problem without saying so.
Not insulting you, don't you understand that?
I was allowed to receive communion, therefore, my friend pastor refused me receiving it.
If only the baptized should receive communion is right, the pastor doing wrong to me.
I've wrote this previously, the pastor was using communion under his power?
That's wrong thing to do and even against Christianity of personal.
Was he insulted by me saying still I am looking for the right man with spirit?
Perhaps so. I must repeat this, I loved the man and still I do.

At that time, I was more experienced spiritually than he was, such as Joy from Holy Spirit and similar to speaking tongue, and we (the pastor and I) discussed about it.
The church never believed in speaking tongue and that was the reason the pastor came to the church.
I did not know at that time, but the previous pastor was fired because of his belief of speaking tongue and later he became the English-Japanese interpreter for President Jimmy Carter.
Provably I would not hesitate to get baptized by the pastor.

Now I spilled my guts.
I've written that you don't know my entire experience with Holy Spirit, I was going to write that here later if time was right as my testament.
Why do I have to convince you I am not against baptism, if I don't feel inside that is right thing to do, I would not do it.
Any other Christians did or do the same thing.
I did not understand even I say I am not against baptism again and again, why you guys put the words in my mouth.
It is completely opposite side of Christianity I know.
Trust me, I've never think I am always right.
If someone convince me your belief is right, I would say exactly what you guys are saying, but sorry no chance at this time. Please don't feel offended.
I do not believe in speaking tongue like used to be.

>We have given you nothing but love in our responses.

I can't deny it about your responses.
However, if you don't change your belief, you will be condemned according to the Bible is a massage of love?
Sounds like a threat to me.
If Jesus said so to me, I would not wait a half second to change my mind, however, someone pretend to be higher authority to say so, it's hard to swallow it, it's not only my opinion but my heart with Jesus' voice does not allow me to do so.

Jesus knows my heart.
Whatever I said, lie or not.
That's good enough for me if only Jesus knows me.
I am trying to be true with Jesus, what happens after that is to be honest with myself, just like you are doing.
Then, why you are always right on the idea of Jesus?
Sure, I do not understand everything the Bible says, but heart of Jesus is only one, full of grace and truth, isn't it?

I do not have to listen to other human tells me what to do with God, if my heart with Jesus tells me don't listen to it.
Because God is the one tells me what to do.
Just like the one you'd feel.
So don't tell me your's superior to mine, because the heart of God tells me don't say it to you back.
That's the important thing to understand the Bible to get to know the heart of God to think all right things.
This goes to anyone include you, you wouldn't like to hear someone says you are wrong according to the Bible, would you?
Really, no-one knows what heart God has, don't you think?
You might say that you know it all・・・
No matter what the Bible says,
There only our beliefs are.
If I said only my belief is righteous to God, it was the worst thing I could think to have a faith in Jesus.
I am sure that you would agree with this.
Then, how do you feel about yourself?
If you'd think anyone is different from your belief is wrong, at least in my case, you tell me I am wrong, in that case, someone could tell you exactly the same.
I would not like to do that.
Because, God loves you and me, no matter what we argue about how to worship God, even we are enemies, you know God loves both of us.
So your strong belief and mine are very little thing how to be saved.
If you disagree with this, what is your big ideas?
Don't you dislike my big mouth?
I really don't think it's big deal in God's eyes.
But what I know about God's eyes, any way?

This is second Farewell and the last from me.
Please any one feel free to continue this thread.

 

[LilLamb219]

I just realized that Doubting Tomas was not the OP of this thread. I apologize to the OP for keeping the discussion on this tangent.

 

[Incariol]

The only requirement for Salvation is confession of Christ as your Saviour,

I've already addressed this and shown it to be wrong.

and I think you will find that all mainstream churches would agree with me on that.

I don't really care. Most mainstream churches are wrong. There is only one church that teaches the truth, and we need to discover and follow it.

"He can no longer have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother"--St. Cyprian of Carthage, De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate