Is it really even fair to hold Christians accountable?

[Chesterton]

...never happens in a true Marxist government.
A true communist or socialist government...
...not true Marxist governments.

lol at the tired use of the word "true". I stand corrected. You don't need to brush up on Marxism. You need to brush up on human nature.

 

[chilehed]

A lot of Anti-Theists who believe that religion is bad blame Christianity for wars, terror, and oppression. For example the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Jones Town, Shooters, Hitler, Slavery, etc...

Yeah, well, there are a lot of ignorant people in the world.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

You know the answer to that.

 

[RDKirk]

lol at the tired use of the word "true". I stand corrected. You don't need to brush up on Marxism. You need to brush up on human nature.

And notice that the Democratic Republic of North Korea is not a true democracy, either.

That means what they actually do and how they actually behave is the indicator of what they truly are, not the moniker they appropriate.

 

[aiki]

I read the Bible and Jesus never told us to kill in his name, oppress others. So is this even fair we are blamed for the atrocities along with our God being blamed as well? I don't even know where Hitler gets into this because he never declared himself as a Christian, and Jones Town was a cult and the source of the teachings didn't come from the Bible.

So all of a sudden because of these events Anti-Theist blame Christians, the Bible, and our God for everything, even though our God never commanded such things.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

It isn't. But for the atheist, it is very convenient "logic." Look, if you really want to understand and assess the musical genius of Mozart, do you listen to a squeaking, squawking sixth-grade band playing his stuff? Of course not. You find the very best philharmonic orchestra playing his music and from their high-level efforts come to your conclusions about Mozart's ability. Makes sense, right? But this isn't how the atheist operates. He finds the worst examples of "Christian" behaviour and, like the racist who paints an entire ethnic group with the same brush, tries to color all of Christianity with the evil deeds of these wretched few. No matter that it is extremely doubtful these awful people claiming affiliation with Christianity actually were genuine Christians. It is enough for the purposes of the atheist that they merely make the claim. In all this, the atheist carefully ignores the very best example of the Christian religion found in its progenitor, Jesus Christ. They never want to consider his excellent example because it entirely dissolves their attempt to blacken the Christian faith.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Time to revisit this link:
Atheism and Mass Murder

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Christians aren't perfect but they have a better record historically than non-Christians do.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

This is just the fallacies of association and composition. Ideas stand or fall on their own merits. Though they may be abused, or set-aside, reducing the whole in this way is not a logically tenable position. It depends on how we define 'Christian' though, but that still doesn't make us responsible for the actions of other Christians. Whether this is a direct derivative of Christianity is difficult to support anyway, when all such have multifarious causes and factors.

 

[RDKirk]

It depends on how we define 'Christian' though, but that still doesn't make us responsible for the actions of other Christians.

Scripture says we are.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Scripture says we are.

True, we are all responsible for everyone else, really. Sin begets sin. How can you follow out the ultimate effects anyway? In the narrow sense of causation and group identity as defined by the slurs of the ignorant, we aren't though. So yes in a real and religious sense, but certainly not in a secular one. That is why we put-on Christ after all, abide in Grace, as we humans are simply too depraved otherwise.

 

[Alithis]

The most violent and destructive wars in history had nothing to do with religion.

In fact the most violent and atrocious violating all human rights and human decency have all "out lawed" religions and declared there is "no god". Yup. Theyve all been athiest.

 

[RDKirk]

True, we are all responsible for everyone else, really. Sin begets sin. How can you follow out the ultimate effects anyway? In the narrow sense of causation and group identity as defined by the slurs of the ignorant, we aren't though. So yes in a real and religious sense, but certainly not in a secular one. That is why we put-on Christ after all, abide in Grace, as we humans are simply too depraved otherwise.

First:

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” -- 1 Corinthians 5

Second: Who should control the "image" of Christianity, if not the Body of Christ itself? This really isn't a matter of drawing lines of denomination and doctrine. Pretty much all Christian groups are unified in what Christian behavior should be. It should not be hard for Christians in general to say, "That's bad behavior for a Christian." And Christians should say it first.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

First:

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” -- 1 Corinthians 5

Second: Who should control the "image" of Christianity, if not the Body of Christ itself? This really isn't a matter of drawing lines of denomination and doctrine. Pretty much all Christian groups are unified in what Christian behavior should be. It should not be hard for Christians in general to say, "That's bad behavior for a Christian." And Christians should say it first.

But that was my point. We aren't determining Christian behaviour, but an external hypothetical Atheist is defining it here - which makes it fallacious.

 

[salt-n-light]

A lot of Anti-Theists who believe that religion is bad blame Christianity for wars, terror, and oppression. For example the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Jones Town, Shooters, Hitler, Slavery, etc.

I read the Bible and Jesus never told us to kill in his name, oppress others. So is this even fair we are blamed for the atrocities along with our God being blamed as well? I don't even know where Hitler gets into this because he never declared himself as a Christian, and Jones Town was a cult and the source of the teachings didn't come from the Bible.

So all of a sudden because of these events Anti-Theist blame Christians, the Bible, and our God for everything, even though our God never commanded such things.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

They have the right to be foolish, and for that, they can exercise it how they see fit.

But if you do want to learn how to have a discussion with them about it, maybe ask the people in the "Christian Apologetics" section of the forum. It is a good time to get verse in these things and research.

 

[DamianWarS]

A lot of Anti-Theists who believe that religion is bad blame Christianity for wars, terror, and oppression. For example the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Jones Town, Shooters, Hitler, Slavery, etc.

I read the Bible and Jesus never told us to kill in his name, oppress others. So is this even fair we are blamed for the atrocities along with our God being blamed as well? I don't even know where Hitler gets into this because he never declared himself as a Christian, and Jones Town was a cult and the source of the teachings didn't come from the Bible.

So all of a sudden because of these events Anti-Theist blame Christians, the Bible, and our God for everything, even though our God never commanded such things.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

the question could be if there is a God then why do Christians appear so untransformed or so easily give in to such atrocities?

 

[Toro]

If we believe that God holds us accountable... why SHOULDN'T Christians be held accountable?

We live in a world that will hate us... IF we want to be liked we should be like the world, to justify why we are not to blame for our actions. Why we are justified in our sins because "it's only natural to not be perfect so its "not my fault""

We are to be set apart from the world.

If the sins of our fathers are on our heads...and we inherited the flesh of Adam... then why shouldnt the sins of those that claim His name be on us as well.

Maybe if those that claimed His name were to know they too are held accountable for the actions of others...maybe, just maybe they would be less content to sit idle and do nothing when someone is walking in a way that in the eyes of the world makes the body of Christ look bad. (Because like it or not, if all the world sees are hypocritical "Christians" that love to point out the speck in everyone's eye while not caring to deal with the plank in their own.... WHY would ANYONE come to be a part of that?)

Maybe, just maybe people would be more concerned with if their brother or sister is walking in love or walking in pride/ego.

Maybe there would be brothers and sisters lifting up in support of rather than tearing down BECAUSE If the foot in the body stumbles... does the whole body not fall? For what good does the hand do the body if all it does is tear another part of the body apart?

Maybe if we were to take the blame and work to improve our own body, maybe then Christianity would be undeniably powerful to the rest of the world...and people would WANT to know more about this life, instead of being full of gossip, greed, anger, hatred, just like every other group or individual in the world. It would be the light that Christianity should be.

Instead we as a whole tolerate people that twist scriptures that teach hatred for a sinner simply because it is not us, nor is it "our sin".We tolerate people that cause all sorts of injustice as a means to an end and hide behind the name of Christ... instead of taking up our cross... just as the one we claim to follow did for us.

Was it "fair" that He paid the price for our sins while He had none?

The world has a right to hold us to a higher standard..... as we should hold ourselves to an even higher standard than they. That is not to say we should walk around judging our brother or sister, but to walk in love and care for our brother or sister, lifting them up, correcting in love, while we judge ourself, taking a look at our own desperately wicked hearts to make sure our heart abides in Him and He in us... daily.

I may not have killed in the crusades, I may not have killed many "in the name of God, king and country"... but in the same shoes as those that did.... who is to say I wouldnt if it were that time, that place and it were me... while THEY sit on the other side of history and in their self righteous heart, think themselves better than me..... blind to the ways of their own wicked flesh and deceptive self serving heart that beats in their own chest.

 

[Monk Brendan]

A lot of Anti-Theists who believe that religion is bad blame Christianity for wars, terror, and oppression. For example the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Jones Town, Shooters, Hitler, Slavery, etc.

I read the Bible and Jesus never told us to kill in his name, oppress others. So is this even fair we are blamed for the atrocities along with our God being blamed as well? I don't even know where Hitler gets into this because he never declared himself as a Christian, and Jones Town was a cult and the source of the teachings didn't come from the Bible.

So all of a sudden because of these events Anti-Theist blame Christians, the Bible, and our God for everything, even though our God never commanded such things.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

The Crusades were a Christian response to mahometan jihadistism.

Only 3000 people over a period of 300 years were executed by the Inquisition. That's 10 a year--and for offenses similar to capital crimes elsewhere, including Puritan NE.

Jim Jones was not a Christian and was not preaching anything recognizable as it.

There are even atheists who are "shooters".

Hitler was acting against the teaching of Christianity.

Mahometans and even atheists had slaves, too.

 

[Don Maurer]

A lot of Anti-Theists who believe that religion is bad blame Christianity for wars, terror, and oppression. For example the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Jones Town, Shooters, Hitler, Slavery, etc.

I read the Bible and Jesus never told us to kill in his name, oppress others. So is this even fair we are blamed for the atrocities along with our God being blamed as well? I don't even know where Hitler gets into this because he never declared himself as a Christian, and Jones Town was a cult and the source of the teachings didn't come from the Bible.

So all of a sudden because of these events Anti-Theist blame Christians, the Bible, and our God for everything, even though our God never commanded such things.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

As an evangelical, I would disavow the events you named have anything to do with "Christianity." In fact the groups you speak of violently persecuted evangelicals.

If one wanted to raise you question from an insider, evangelical position, one would certainly not go to the events you quote, for those events generally include persecutions against evangelicals, and by no means are evangelicals responsible for the blood shed in the events you mention. However, this does not mean that evangelicals are free of possible guilt. One would need to go to one of several other historical events. Events such as the wars of the reformation (maybe including the first part of the 30 years war) or the British republic of Oliver Cromwell. What interests me is that these events are all in the 1500s or 1600s and times when the state Church was a commonly accepted theology. Today, evangelicals no longer believe in a state Church, but are generally happy functioning in secular democracies. Yet, books are written on the question of when is violence appropriate.

Historical investigations should include events like the protestant wars of the 1500s. Would the Roman Catholic Church have herded the early protestants into a holocaust situation without the violent resistance of protestants? Did those early protestants have the right to resist violently? In the 1600s, would the Tudor monarchy have persecuted the Puritans into oblivion without Olivar Cromwell, or the "Glorious Revolution" of William of Orange?

The fact that secularists blame Christians for everything under the sun (even Hitler--- wow) is not s surprise. In fact distorted secular views like that are expected since they "hinder the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18). Most secularists that I know are all about emotion, insults, and would say anything without any regard for honest historical analysis. On the other hand, this does not mean that there are no honest questions we should ask ourselves.

 

[RDKirk]

But that was my point. We aren't determining Christian behaviour, but an external hypothetical Atheist is defining it here - which makes it fallacious.

And we leave ourselves constantly handing out the "No True Scotsman" argument.

 

[Newtheran]

A lot of Anti-Theists who believe that religion is bad blame Christianity for wars, terror, and oppression. For example the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Jones Town, Shooters, Hitler, Slavery, etc.

I read the Bible and Jesus never told us to kill in his name, oppress others. So is this even fair we are blamed for the atrocities along with our God being blamed as well? I don't even know where Hitler gets into this because he never declared himself as a Christian, and Jones Town was a cult and the source of the teachings didn't come from the Bible.

So all of a sudden because of these events Anti-Theist blame Christians, the Bible, and our God for everything, even though our God never commanded such things.

How is this fair? Is it even rational?

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John 15:18-20

The moral of the story, is don't be surprised. We were told of this. The corollary: when the world (MSM/Atheists/Pagans/Etc) holds up a denomination as an example, be suspicious of that institution as the world loves its own.

 

[salt-n-light]

the question could be if there is a God then why do Christians appear so untransformed or so easily give in to such atrocities?

Define transform, because a lot of people have false assumptions or expectations of a transformed person.