Is it really even fair to hold Christians accountable?

[redleghunter]

About 200 years later... not so well I expect.

Fall of Constantinople - Wikipedia

Plundering phase
Mehmed II had promised to his soldiers three days to plunder the city, to which they were entitled.[18]:145[43] Soldiers fought over the possession of some of the spoils of war.[44]:283 According to the Venetian surgeon Nicolò Barbaro "all through the day the Turks made a great slaughter of Christians through the city". According to Philip Mansel, widespread persecution of the city's civilian inhabitants took place, resulting in thousands of murders and rapes and 30,000 civilians being enslaved or forcibly deported.[45]

The looting was extremely thorough in certain parts of the city. Weeks later on 2 June, the Sultan would find the city largely deserted and half in ruins; churches had been desecrated and stripped, houses were no longer habitable and stores and shops were emptied. He is famously reported to have been moved to tears by this, speaking "What a city we have given over to plunder and destruction."[18]:152

That's why I asked. The Western Crusaders, by that point, were mostly of the former 'barbarian' class and plundered and left a place. The Muslims stayed.

 

[Halbhh]

And we leave ourselves constantly handing out the "No True Scotsman" argument.

I've noticed the popularity of anti-Christians trying to assert others are doing the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' has fallen off to near zero on at least one popular large site.

It was easy to point out the anti-Christians trying to accuse others of using it were employing it over and over themselves in their own assertions. Pointing this out many times helped end the popularity of resorting to accusing it as a rhetorical attack. (but be nice if you do)

But I think the main thing that helps improve the atmosphere of a forum in my view is to never become antagonistic when you respond to those intentionally trying to insult you, but to continue to 'heap coals of fire on their heads' as Paul recommended (Romans 12:20, Proverbs 25:21-22) by always being kind and nice and good to those that are insulting, in a way that helps highlight the difference in attitude.

21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.

Also, it's central and crucial to remember the key goal -- to tell the Good News. Just arguing to win is not at all helpful to anyone. Instead, I want to remember to tell the actual words of Christ, things He said, and do so often.

 

[Basil the Great]

You are correct in bringing this up, but I was responding to the notion that the Christian crusades into Moslem lands was somehow an unprovoked adventure.

I will not contest the very real possibility that some or all of the Holy Land Crusades may well NOT have been defensive wars, but were possibly offensive wars. Having said that, I do not think that we have sufficient information to come to a definitive conclusion. I tend to think that your thesis is probably correct, at least with one or more of the Holy Land Crusades. As someone with pacifistic leanings, I firmly contend that the Revolutionary War was not a justified war by any reasonable Christian standard. Do we really go to war, just because of "taxation without representation"? Now if there was ever a war that was justified, it has to be WWII. The ultimate evil was committing genocide on a massive scale and I do not believe that God wants us to allow that kind of evil to prevail in this world.

 

[Basil the Great]

I've heard that. Very interesting. What sources can you recommend to look at this?

I suggest that you research the Shroud of Turin website. I am pretty sure that you will find a reference there to the probability that the Crusaders brought the Shroud of Turin or something like it back to Europe when they sacked Constantinople.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Do I have to be the one that says the obvious?

I guess so.

What a ridiculous claim.

How is it a ridiculous claim? So I guess you think all the hate spreaders are American atheists then? lol.

The internet is for all the world, not just one country, And I am an American and know for a fact every one I have ever meet either loves one another and respects Christians or they accept us even so.

In my whole life not once have I ever meet any American who hates others for there religion or belife.

But online friends I do know for years who are from other countries admit daily they pose as Americans to spread fear, hate, and lies.

So how ridiculous is it now?

 

[expos4ever]

deleted own post.

 

[expos4ever]

How is it a ridiculous claim? So I guess you think all the hate spreaders are American atheists then? lol.

The internet is for all the world, not just one country, And I am an American and know for a fact every one I have ever meet either loves one another and respects Christians or they accept us even so.

In my whole life not once have I ever meet any American who hates others for there religion or belife.

But online friends I do know for years who are from other countries admit daily they pose as Americans to spread fear, hate, and lies.

So how ridiculous is it now?

Your initial claim was absurd and this ridiculous further characterization of how the sun shines out the mouths if Americans and the rest of the world is out to get you is downright delusional.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I find the hypocrisy immensely frustrating. In my personal experience...

• "modern atheistic science types" lampoon the Church for medieval "scholars" (cough / laugh) who wasted everybody's time & money on frivolous speculations of "how many Angels could fit on the head of a pin"
• today, according to a professional insider, modern science types (in some circles) are positively reviewing each other's papers, and endlessly endorsing each other's government grant proposals, on frivolous "theory-tales" of fairy-tale-like hypothetical particles... which despite numerous experiments & equally numerous millions of dollars... have never been detected

Church scholars at least spent one day a week looking like they were helping the sick & poor, in person, themselves, in the physical flesh. Have modern scientists ever even volunteered once a year in soup kitchens? More frivolity, more public expense, less charity... and they "glow with brighter haloes" in the public eye?? (And, if it turns out that so-called "Angels" actually really do exist out there...)


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• Christianity says earth will end in fire from heaven on Final Judgement Day (Revelation 20:9). And Christianity is a tiresome boring "doom & gloom religion"...
• Instead, we should all join modern New Age spiritual movements & Wiccan revival... from whence flows the notion of the "Gaia soul of earth" as a singular living entity (depicted, as it happens, as the soul of Pandora in the movie Avatar) whose coming Wrath of Gaia against the Industrial Revolution will return earth to the stone age

Out of the frying pan, into the fire ??

(For the record, humans now move more mass around the surface of earth than all natural erosion & weathering processes combined. Humans put more matter into the atmosphere than nature. Claiming that humans have an impact on global climate... has actually been demonstrably true for thousands of years -- prehistoric farmers "slashed burned & deforested" their way from the Fertile Crescent through Europe to Ireland, removing continents' worth of trees, keeping them from drawing CO2 out of the air, and putting lots of carbon back into the atmosphere... arguably averting a now-long-overdue Ice Age.

For wont of worthier words, the "USS Earth" is the only "ship" in the "fleet", and if people say it's a good idea not to "scuttle" it, won't get any complaints from me per se. But Global Climate influences are a Global issue, not all my individual fault.)

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• Christianity is tiresome boring "doom & gloom" Religion blaming everybody with "Original Sin" from people thousands of years ago, thousands of miles away
• as opposed to modern "guilt culture"...

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• Christianity says you're supposed to do the Will of God in heaven, but in some sense it's "up to you", your own voluntary consent is an important part of the process, even the Holy Spirit can be resisted -- God doesn't make us robots programmed to do God's will, and the Bible shows God is even willing to negotiate terms occasionally [= bad]
• modern New Age Astrology revival says super-terrestrial Astral Principalities & Powers amongst the stars completely control our fates from birth onwards -- the "inter-stellar imperialism" (my words) is imposed by decree & dictate, purely unilaterally, irrespective of any human will, desire, acceptance, or consent, with no "parliamentary" discussion [= good]

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and on & on & on & on & on & on...

I myself would rather say no no no no no no no

If anybody else starts paying attention, they too will notice more & more & more examples of total utter blatant hypocrisy ("XYZ is bad", turn right around and do "XYZ")