Is it possible to be a Christian, but NOT a disciple

[mrhappy3]

Do we grow into being a disciple, that's what I really mean ???? & can we stay at some other level, and NEVER be "discipled". (and still be a Christian).

 

[paul1149]

Discipleship isn't a level of performance or perfection, it's a level of consecration. A study of the Book of Acts will show that the early church considered even brand new converts disciples. It was their expectation that everyone claiming the name of Christ was serious about following after Him.

Being a lukewarm Christian is dangerous territory. It calls for the kind of treatment the Laodiceans were close to receiving in Rev 3.

 

[TasManOfGod]

I always see discipleship on the same basis as a youth might learn a trade ie a builder. Sure if you did not follow a particular craftsman but ask questions, try things, makes mistakes etc you will become reletively proficient at the task but you will never be as good as you would if you had followed the craftsman closely.

 

[GarrickBrewer]

Discipleship in my mind is just walking in the path and following the teachings of Jesus. Every true christian is a disciple just by following the tenants of Christianity, and you are a disciple until the day you die, for you will always be learning from the bible, always be trying to walk in the path of jesus and his teachings.

 

[pdudgeon]

Do we grow into being a disciple, that's what I really mean ???? & can we stay at some other level, and NEVER be "discipled". (and still be a Christian).

what 'other level' are you talking about?
the onlookers who followed Christ around listening to Him and eating the food He provided, but never making a change in their lives?

we don't grow into discipleship.
we make an active choice at some point in our lives to commit ourselves to become like Him in all things; to trust in Him, to do what He does, to love whom He loves, to go where He goes, to say what He says.

it's not enough to just believe that Christ is who He says He is, and leave it at that. you're either in it with everything you've got, or you're still on the outside.

 

[Tobias]

"Christian" is the name of a very large religion, which includes many people we have been taught not to think of as Christians. The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian, as were the armies that marched on Jerusalem during the Crusades, who killed every living person inside when the city fell.

What we have seen lately though, is an attempt to redefine the word to mean something else. People have tried to change the title of "Christian" to only apply to themselves and a handful of other people! Which handful, depends only on who you are talking to!

If we were to say that to be a true Christian you must be a disciple, it is just as valid as any other redefinition of the word. But it's not going to change the minds of millions of other people who do not fit our narrow definition, and continue to call themselves Christians despite our valiant efforts to expel them from their own religion.

 

[lismore]

On the other hand is it possible to be a disciple and not a Christian?

 

[zaksmummy]

On the other hand is it possible to be a disciple and not a Christian?

Yes you could be a Messianic Jew

 

[zaksmummy]

Maybe you need to define exactly what is "disciple" is.

The word Disciple did not enter into the English language until the translators of the KJV put it there. They were trying to find an appropriate equivalent word for the Hebrew "Talmidim", which is better translated "students", but more so. The role of a Talmidim in Jesus' time was to follow the Rabbi, learn his words, recite his words and copy his actions in relation to how he followed the Torah. They he would "graduate" to becoming a Rabbi and raise up Talmidim of his own, but within the same "House" as his Rabbi.

Hope this helps.

 

[Usernametaken]

A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ, one who has accepted the free gift of salvation.

A disciple is a disciplined learner.

A Christian is the result of relationship
A disciple is the result of actions.

 

[K2K]

Is 30:20... He, your Teacher...

Prov 3:12 Whom the Lord loves He reproves

Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Jn 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice, and they will become one flock with one shepherd

Heb 5:9 ...He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

Is 48:17 ... "I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.

Ps 93:12 Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O Lord, and whom You teach out of Your law.

Ps 81:8 Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Israel, if you would listen to Me!

Ps 81:11 - 13 But My people did not listen to My voice And Israel did not obey Me. so I gave them over to the stubborness of their own heart, to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me.

If you know the Lord, you must know that He teaches and reproves you. You want that! How else are you going to learn. He is remarkably patient, cleaver, and understanding, so what is He if not your teacher and what are you if not His disciple?

Yet is He your teacher if you have not heard Him talking to you?

It seems to me that if anyone has to wonder about whether He is a teacher of whether you might know Him without being taught by Him, they don't know Him at all. He said there would be many, even those that cast out demons in His name and healed the sick in His name, that He was going to say that He never knew them. Seek to hear from Him so that you are not one of those.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It all depends on whose disciples we are. There are churches that are into this Shepherding/Discipleship doctrine where the leaders believe that Christ has given them the authority to disciple others.

This doctrine is a demonic lie and has caused untold damage to thousands of good believers who were tricked into being discipled by these "power/controllers" whose motive for discipling was, and still is, only to meet their own spiritual needs.

This type of discipling is called "spiritual abuse".

If you google "spiritual abuse" you will find a lot of good information about it. It is a real eye opener.

There is only one Shepherd, and He is Jesus. He never gave His authority to anyone else. Those who say they are shepherds and use authority methods to control and disciple others are false shepherds.

It is interesting that the passages about false prophets and false apostles deal with this false shepherding also. In fact, the false prophets in the Old Testament were also the false shepherds who tore the flock.

Jesus called them "grievous wolves"
Paul said that grievous wolves would arise out of the very churches that the believers were in.
These are the pastors who are not content with just offering good advise about moral issues, but want to control every aspect of the lives of those they seek to disciple.

Once we see these toxic pastors as the false prophets and shepherds they are, then we may not be deceived and tricked into making ourselves subject to their toxic ministries.

 

[TasManOfGod]

It all depends on whose disciples we are. There are churches that are into this Shepherding/Discipleship doctrine where the leaders believe that Christ has given them the authority to disciple others.

This doctrine is a demonic lie and has caused untold damage to thousands of good believers who were tricked into being discipled by these "power/controllers" whose motive for discipling was, and still is, only to meet their own spiritual needs.

This type of discipling is called "spiritual abuse".

If you google "spiritual abuse" you will find a lot of good information about it. It is a real eye opener.

There is only one Shepherd, and He is Jesus. He never gave His authority to anyone else. Those who say they are shepherds and use authority methods to control and disciple others are false shepherds.

It is interesting that the passages about false prophets and false apostles deal with this false shepherding also. In fact, the false prophets in the Old Testament were also the false shepherds who tore the flock.

Jesus called them "grievous wolves"
Paul said that grievous wolves would arise out of the very churches that the believers were in.
These are the pastors who are not content with just offering good advise about moral issues, but want to control every aspect of the lives of those they seek to disciple.

Once we see these toxic pastors as the false prophets and shepherds they are, then we may not be deceived and tricked into making ourselves subject to their toxic ministries.

I take it you have never discipled anyone

 

[JimB]

Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing as a perfect disciple (take the Twelve for example). Most of the time those who desire to be Christ's disciple actually do deny themselves and take up Christ's cross but often, too often, they (we) tend to indulge ourselves and in so doing lay the cross aside and follow our own path.

~Jim

 

[K2K]

Is the perfect all knowing being the disciple or the Teacher?

Disciples are those that need to be taught. They are also those that are being taught. If they are dsciples of Christ they are being taught by Christ. Some say that reading the Bible is being taught by Christ. But just because a person picks up a text book, it doesn't mean they are taking a class.

Many have taken up the text book and have studied it over and over. Many call themselves Christians. Yet in truth, those hearing from the Truth are His disciples, and only those hearing from Him are His disciples.

Charles Finney wrote this in his book Experiencing The Presence of God:

"Truth in doctrine or true doctrine is a medium through which substantial or essential truth is revealed. But the doctrine or medium is no more identical with truth than light is identical with the objects that it reveals. Truth in doctrine is called light, and it is to essential truth what light is to the objects that reflect it. Light reflecting from objects is at once the condition of and the medium for revealing them. Likewise, true doctrine is the condition and the means of knowing Christ, the essential Truth. All truth in doctrine is only a reflection of Christ, or it is an enlightening of the intelligence by Christ

When we learn this spiritually, we will learn to distinguish between doctrine and the One whose radiance it is. We will learn to worship Christ as the Truth and not the doctrine that reveals Him. We will learn to worship God instead of the Bible"


Many are called Christians because they study a book and say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but they are worshiping the Bible and their doctrine. True Christians are those that are being taught by Christ. They know His voice. He gives them instructions, so they call Him Lord because He is their Lord. They call Him Teacher, because they are being discipled by Him. They can give you teachings they heard from Him.

There was a monkey hanging from a limb above a river. Alligators were coming up out of the river trying and eat the monkey. Yet the monkey had heard that there were no alligators where he lived, so he hanged precariously from the tree.

Many go to church and say there are no demons where I live, so they hang on precariously to Christ. Many hang on with just their finger tips when they should be wrapped up in His arms.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I take it you have never discipled anyone

I have certainly not taken over someone's life and subjected them to a set of "christian" instructions about how to live their lives. This is another way of saying they have to live by the terms of the law. Jesus saves us and keeps us by His grace and all we do is rest in Him.

A lot of the "disciplining" of others is just making them live by the law, which Paul condemns in Galatians.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing as a perfect disciple (take the Twelve for example). Most of the time those who desire to be Christ's disciple actually do deny themselves and take up Christ's cross but often, too often, they (we) tend to indulge ourselves and in so doing lay the cross aside and follow our own path.

~Jim

We have to be careful that we don't misquote the Scripture here. Denying oneself and taking up the cross of Christ was said in relation to being prepared to suffer persecution and rejection by the world for our faith.

Dying to self has nothing to do with not having our own dreams and ambitions, for example getting a college education, getting a well paid job, deciding who we want to marry, the type of house we want to live in, the type of car we drive, whether we want to have a good holiday somewhere. Some modern day pharisees quote the Scripture about "dying to oneself" in terms of giving up all these things in order to win approval from God.

What we actually die from is self righteousness - the notion that we can win approval from God through our own spiritual performance.

This "discipling" thing often involves making believers subscribe to a set of performance objectives in order to be approved of God and to live a successful Christian life. This is nonsense. We are already approved of God through His grace if we have accepted Christ. We do not need to do anything else - in fact we cannot do anything else but rest in Christ and put our full trust and dependence on Christ to live the way He wants us to live.

The trouble with the discipling notion is that a believer has to give up his own path in life and follow the discipler's path and not Christ. That is the evil of it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is the perfect all knowing being the disciple or the Teacher?

Disciples are those that need to be taught. They are also those that are being taught. If they are dsciples of Christ they are being taught by Christ. Some say that reading the Bible is being taught by Christ. But just because a person picks up a text book, it doesn't mean they are taking a class.

Many have taken up the text book and have studied it over and over. Many call themselves Christians. Yet in truth, those hearing from the Truth are His disciples, and only those hearing from Him are His disciples.

Charles Finney wrote this in his book Experiencing The Presence of God:

"Truth in doctrine or true doctrine is a medium through which substantial or essential truth is revealed. But the doctrine or medium is no more identical with truth than light is identical with the objects that it reveals. Truth in doctrine is called light, and it is to essential truth what light is to the objects that reflect it. Light reflecting from objects is at once the condition of and the medium for revealing them. Likewise, true doctrine is the condition and the means of knowing Christ, the essential Truth. All truth in doctrine is only a reflection of Christ, or it is an enlightening of the intelligence by Christ

When we learn this spiritually, we will learn to distinguish between doctrine and the One whose radiance it is. We will learn to worship Christ as the Truth and not the doctrine that reveals Him. We will learn to worship God instead of the Bible"


Many are called Christians because they study a book and say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but they are worshiping the Bible and their doctrine. True Christians are those that are being taught by Christ. They know His voice. He gives them instructions, so they call Him Lord because He is their Lord. They call Him Teacher, because they are being discipled by Him. They can give you teachings they heard from Him.

There was a monkey hanging from a limb above a river. Alligators were coming up out of the river trying and eat the monkey. Yet the monkey had heard that there were no alligators where he lived, so he hanged precariously from the tree.

Many go to church and say there are no demons where I live, so they hang on precariously to Christ. Many hang on with just their finger tips when they should be wrapped up in His arms.

You are quite correct. The purpose of the Bible is to show us the nature of God and who Jesus is. It gives us guidance in moral issues with the purpose of improving our walk and fellowship with Christ.

The Bible was never meant to be a lawbook or an instruction manual to put people in bondage to a set of rules. Jesus simplified the law right down to loving God and loving others.

 

[earagun]

It all depends on whose disciples we are. There are churches that are into this Shepherding/Discipleship doctrine where the leaders believe that Christ has given them the authority to disciple others.

This doctrine is a demonic lie and has caused untold damage to thousands of good believers who were tricked into being discipled by these "power/controllers" whose motive for discipling was, and still is, only to meet their own spiritual needs.

This type of discipling is called "spiritual abuse".

If you google "spiritual abuse" you will find a lot of good information about it. It is a real eye opener.

There is only one Shepherd, and He is Jesus. He never gave His authority to anyone else. Those who say they are shepherds and use authority methods to control and disciple others are false shepherds.

It is interesting that the passages about false prophets and false apostles deal with this false shepherding also. In fact, the false prophets in the Old Testament were also the false shepherds who tore the flock.

Jesus called them "grievous wolves"
Paul said that grievous wolves would arise out of the very churches that the believers were in.
These are the pastors who are not content with just offering good advise about moral issues, but want to control every aspect of the lives of those they seek to disciple.

Once we see these toxic pastors as the false prophets and shepherds they are, then we may not be deceived and tricked into making ourselves subject to their toxic ministries.

well you said alot, but it still comes down to this, the great commission tells us to make disciples of all nations.......a disciple is a "DISCIPLINED LEARNER"......I'm not sure how you expect this to be done without leadership having authority over new disciples and teaching them to obey all that Christ commanded........I think you may need to rethink what the word disciple actually means

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

well you said alot, but it still comes down to this, the great commission tells us to make disciples of all nations.......a disciple is a "DISCIPLINED LEARNER"......I'm not sure how you expect this to be done without leadership having authority over new disciples and teaching them to obey all that Christ commanded........I think you may need to rethink what the word disciple actually means

You will find that the greek word for "obedience" in terms of discipling new Christians means "listen to, give attention to", it does not mean absolute obedience. The only word that means total and unquestioning obedience is the one in context of obedience to Christ Himself and is used when Christ has given clear and definite instructions about what believers should do. For example, when he gave the great commission where He said "preach the Gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons" the word used for absolute obedience was used, which showed that His command was non negotiable.

I am not talking about assisting new converts in the basics of Christian faith, but the object of the teaching is to bring that person to full dependence on Christ. It does not give a person the right to take over that person's life in non moral issues. The Bible is quite clear about certain moral issues and it is quite right to point those out to a new believer. But to require a new believer to totally obey a "discipler" in all aspects of life is not supported in Scripture.

Nowhere in the Gospels is it shown that Jesus gave personal advice to His disciples in all the non moral areas of their lives. The same applies to the Apostles in the way they managed the churches. Paul said to the Corinthians that He, Peter, and Apollos were God's ministers by whom they believed in Christ.

The problem with "discipleship" today is that the discipler becomes an authoritarian lawgiver, when Jesus clearly pointed out that a genuine discipler is the servant to whom he is discipling, to come up under him and increase his faith in Christ. He is not someone who comes over him and exercises authority like a sergeant in the army.

Nowhere does it express discipleship in terms of a pyramid leadership like the army. Jesus washed His disciples feet and served them. Genuine disciplers serve those whom they disciple, not lord it over them.

Jesus, the Lord of all, became a servant to those He came to save. He told his disciples that if someone wanted to be great, let him become the servant of all.

The trouble is, pastors and housegroup leaders in the way they set rules and regulations for their members, have become pharisaical lords instead of servants, and those were the type of people that Jesus got angry at.

A genuine discipler will lead a new convert to Jesus, and then surrender him to Jesus once that person shows faith and dependence on Him. A good discipler will never get in between a believer and Christ.

A toxic discipler will try and keep the believer in bondage to rules and regulations for life.