Is it possible to be a Christian, but NOT a disciple

[K2K]

well you said alot, but it still comes down to this, the great commission tells us to make disciples of all nations.......a disciple is a "DISCIPLINED LEARNER"......I'm not sure how you expect this to be done without leadership having authority over new disciples and teaching them to obey all that Christ commanded........I think you may need to rethink what the word disciple actually means

Are we making disciples for us or for Him?

If we believe that God is real, and that He can be heard from. then aren't we trying to hook people up with Him?

When Paul asked the Galatians about whether they recieved the Spirit by works of the Law or by hearing with faith, wasn't Paul trying to get them to listen to the Lord.

As for me: when I preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, I mean that He is alive and can be heard from, but there are some that have Him as being dead so that He can not be heard from.

Therefore if we are telling people to obey all that Christ commands, then we are telling them to listen to Him. A more mature Christian might be able to explain about hearing from Him, and help a newer Christian how to go about discerning between spirits, because the Spirit of God is not the only spirit. And since we all know in part, as written in the Scriptures, there is certainly value is sharing what the Lord has shown us with other Christians. And it is also true that the Lord has placed others in different levels of authority, but there is still only one Lord. So I am not trying to get anyone to follow me, but to follow the Lord!!!

That can not be said of everyone. There are many that make themselves and other people out to be lords. They our out to make disciples for themselves and not the Lord.

A person once came up to me and said, "You have got to listen to our pastor." Afterwards the Lord told me "If anyone ever comes up to you agains and says, 'You have got to listen to our pastor', tell them 'They have got to listen to your pastor.'"


Truly there is only one thing necessary and that is listening to the Lord like Mary was doing while Martha cleaned the house.

We are not trying to make disciples for ourself or other people, we are trying to making disciples for the Lord our God!!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The popular teaching about spiritual authority that was given during the 1970s and 1980s was basically false and a misinterpretation of Scripture.

Jesus gave authority to believers over sickness and demons. He did not give authority to believers over other believers. Requiring believers to come under the authority of pastors and leaders in the same way that soldiers come under the authority of their officers, is idolatory, because the believers are made subject to humans and not to Christ. We are all kings and priest to God, therefore we are all equal under Christ, and we all have the right to walk with Christ in faith without interference from neo-Pharisees whose intention is to have power and control over others.

No matter how well intentioned they are, disciplers who exercise military style authority over others are committing the same sin as the Pharisees of Jesus' time were, and they are the ones who will be rebuked by Christ for making younger believers commit idolatory through their toxic leadership.

The pryamid style of leadership with the senior pastor at the top ruling over the church is nothing less than neo-popery. It is not new. The Roman Catholic Church has been doing that for centuries.

The Shepherding/Discipleship movement is discredited and has caused untold misery among believers and has lost more people than it has gained, because the key people in the movement have forgotten what servantship is all about.

No man is greater than his Master. If Jesus was a servant to His disciples, then our church leaders need to be the same.

 

[Alive_Again]

A word concerning other groups being called Christians. A christian is one who has been born again and in covenant relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

I believe their are some Christian JWs and Mormons, but they are the exception not the rule. Just as their are tons of denominationals who have never been born again. Many denoms believe water baptism as an infant qualifies you to become a Christian. This is deception.

I don't really consider the crusaders to have really been Christians either. I'm sure their were Christians among them, but as now, many were not born again. Considering the murders the crusaders committed, particularly of the Jews, one would have to conclude they walked in gross darkness (something someone in covenant with God does not do). Also, to believe that by taking part in the Crusades, you would go to Heaven if you were killed, is an equally gross deception.

I'm sure many popes, bishops, and kings were no more born again than anyone else. I'm sure many were, but in some centuries, office meant that you were politically connected, not necessarily connected to God. Many Muslims and Jews have a great dislike for Christians based on the crusades. "Christians" who committed atrocities were no more walking in the light than the devil. They may acknowledge Jesus as Lord, but do not live as such.

There were different kinds of walks, but each person saw Christ as their treasure and sold themselves to get it. We're destined to be conformed to the image of Christ if we walk the narrow path. You can't do that without being "disciplined". Every believer has a cross to carry.

Their are death bed repentances, but they don't have the rewards other believers do.

 

[earagun]

You will find that the greek word for "obedience" in terms of discipling new Christians means "listen to, give attention to", it does not mean absolute obedience. The only word that means total and unquestioning obedience is the one in context of obedience to Christ Himself and is used when Christ has given clear and definite instructions about what believers should do. For example, when he gave the great commission where He said "preach the Gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons" the word used for absolute obedience was used, which showed that His command was non negotiable.

I am not talking about assisting new converts in the basics of Christian faith, but the object of the teaching is to bring that person to full dependence on Christ. It does not give a person the right to take over that person's life in non moral issues. The Bible is quite clear about certain moral issues and it is quite right to point those out to a new believer. But to require a new believer to totally obey a "discipler" in all aspects of life is not supported in Scripture.

Nowhere in the Gospels is it shown that Jesus gave personal advice to His disciples in all the non moral areas of their lives. The same applies to the Apostles in the way they managed the churches. Paul said to the Corinthians that He, Peter, and Apollos were God's ministers by whom they believed in Christ.

The problem with "discipleship" today is that the discipler becomes an authoritarian lawgiver, when Jesus clearly pointed out that a genuine discipler is the servant to whom he is discipling, to come up under him and increase his faith in Christ. He is not someone who comes over him and exercises authority like a sergeant in the army.

Nowhere does it express discipleship in terms of a pyramid leadership like the army. Jesus washed His disciples feet and served them. Genuine disciplers serve those whom they disciple, not lord it over them.

Jesus, the Lord of all, became a servant to those He came to save. He told his disciples that if someone wanted to be great, let him become the servant of all.

The trouble is, pastors and housegroup leaders in the way they set rules and regulations for their members, have become pharisaical lords instead of servants, and those were the type of people that Jesus got angry at.

A genuine discipler will lead a new convert to Jesus, and then surrender him to Jesus once that person shows faith and dependence on Him. A good discipler will never get in between a believer and Christ.

A toxic discipler will try and keep the believer in bondage to rules and regulations for life.

Its obvious to anyone reading your post that you are a man who has always struggled with authority, and simply don't want anyone to tell you what to do........we see in scripture concerning the church, people being thrown out who didn't want to live a holy life, and if you want to be apart of a body of believers, you can be sure there is going to be a standard to rise to, if you don't want to rise or grow to be as much like Christ (who was in complete obedience to His Father, His Mentor)....then enjoy your church of one......your thinking does not hold water against what is written......new or old testiment

 

[earagun]

The popular teaching about spiritual authority that was given during the 1970s and 1980s was basically false and a misinterpretation of Scripture.

Jesus gave authority to believers over sickness and demons. He did not give authority to believers over other believers. Requiring believers to come under the authority of pastors and leaders in the same way that soldiers come under the authority of their officers, is idolatory, because the believers are made subject to humans and not to Christ. We are all kings and priest to God, therefore we are all equal under Christ, and we all have the right to walk with Christ in faith without interference from neo-Pharisees whose intention is to have power and control over others.

No matter how well intentioned they are, disciplers who exercise military style authority over others are committing the same sin as the Pharisees of Jesus' time were, and they are the ones who will be rebuked by Christ for making younger believers commit idolatory through their toxic leadership.

The pryamid style of leadership with the senior pastor at the top ruling over the church is nothing less than neo-popery. It is not new. The Roman Catholic Church has been doing that for centuries.

The Shepherding/Discipleship movement is discredited and has caused untold misery among believers and has lost more people than it has gained, because the key people in the movement have forgotten what servantship is all about.

No man is greater than his Master. If Jesus was a servant to His disciples, then our church leaders need to be the same.

Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira, or Miriam and Aaron, when you rise up or lie to the ones God has put over you, there will be consequences......I suggest for your own safety remaining in your church of one, I see only problems for the church you join and for yourself, and that will not be good for anyone

 

[troy Pauley]

Is the perfect all knowing being the disciple or the Teacher?

Disciples are those that need to be taught. They are also those that are being taught. If they are dsciples of Christ they are being taught by Christ. Some say that reading the Bible is being taught by Christ. But just because a person picks up a text book, it doesn't mean they are taking a class.

Many have taken up the text book and have studied it over and over. Many call themselves Christians. Yet in truth, those hearing from the Truth are His disciples, and only those hearing from Him are His disciples.

Charles Finney wrote this in his book Experiencing The Presence of God:

"Truth in doctrine or true doctrine is a medium through which substantial or essential truth is revealed. But the doctrine or medium is no more identical with truth than light is identical with the objects that it reveals. Truth in doctrine is called light, and it is to essential truth what light is to the objects that reflect it. Light reflecting from objects is at once the condition of and the medium for revealing them. Likewise, true doctrine is the condition and the means of knowing Christ, the essential Truth. All truth in doctrine is only a reflection of Christ, or it is an enlightening of the intelligence by Christ

When we learn this spiritually, we will learn to distinguish between doctrine and the One whose radiance it is. We will learn to worship Christ as the Truth and not the doctrine that reveals Him. We will learn to worship God instead of the Bible"


Many are called Christians because they study a book and say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but they are worshiping the Bible and their doctrine. True Christians are those that are being taught by Christ. They know His voice. He gives them instructions, so they call Him Lord because He is their Lord. They call Him Teacher, because they are being discipled by Him. They can give you teachings they heard from Him.

There was a monkey hanging from a limb above a river. Alligators were coming up out of the river trying and eat the monkey. Yet the monkey had heard that there were no alligators where he lived, so he hanged precariously from the tree.

Many go to church and say there are no demons where I live, so they hang on precariously to Christ. Many hang on with just their finger tips when they should be wrapped up in His arms.

That is very true.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

On the other hand is it possible to be a disciple and not a Christian?

I am not of the opinion that "Christian" is what God is aiming to make us. "Christian" is a religion which is claimed by white supremists, hitler, etc.. Yeshua called us to be born-again which makes us believers, not christian. Christian is the name of a religion that is claimed by many who are not disciples of Yeshua, so I would say "yes", it's possible to be a disciple of Yeshua and not a "christian".

*Christians were what the early believers were called by the non-believers who were not using the term in a complementary way. When Peter said, 1 Peter 4:16, "but if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God." He meant if this derogatory name calling is being aimed at you don't be ashamed of it but glorify God in it. Being called a Christian, was not a term of endearment. Nor today, in my opinion does it mean a follower of Yeshua.

​

 

[lisarn]

Often, new Christians are not discipled as they should be. Someone needs to take these new believers under their wing and teach them discipleship. There is a very good discipleship study book called, "Real-Life Discipleship Training Manual: Equipping Disciples Who Make Disciples" by Avery T. Willis, Jr., Jim Putman, Bill Krause, Brandon Guindon.

There are 5 spiritual stages which include Dead in Christ, Spiritual Infant, Spiritual Child, Spiritual Young Adult, and Spiritual Parent. So to answer your question about growth..you should be growing. The sad truth is that many people who have been Christians for years never grow into a Spiritual Parent or even a Spiritual Young Adult. Some don't move beyond a spiritual infant or child. If you want to learn about how to be a disciple and how to disciple others, I highly recommend this book.

 

[Nanopants]

Do we grow into being a disciple, that's what I really mean ???? & can we stay at some other level, and NEVER be "discipled". (and still be a Christian).

I don't think so. I think the term is used as a title incorrectly, and that it should really be understood to mean "student." We all learn from the Lord, so we are all disciples.

 

[lisarn]

Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing as a perfect disciple (take the Twelve for example). Most of the time those who desire to be Christ's disciple actually do deny themselves and take up Christ's cross but often, too often, they (we) tend to indulge ourselves and in so doing lay the cross aside and follow our own path.

~Jim

This is true! Jesus Christ is the only one who is perfect. We are all guilty of sin, which is why we need a Savior.

Everytime we choose to sin, we are following our own path and not the Lord's path.

 

[lisarn]

I don't think so. I think the term is used as a title incorrectly, and that it should really be understood to mean "student." We all learn from the Lord, so we are all disciples.

I agree, we are all disciples once we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of our life, but I believe we grow as a disciple.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Its obvious to anyone reading your post that you are a man who has always struggled with authority, and simply don't want anyone to tell you what to do........we see in scripture concerning the church, people being thrown out who didn't want to live a holy life, and if you want to be apart of a body of believers, you can be sure there is going to be a standard to rise to, if you don't want to rise or grow to be as much like Christ (who was in complete obedience to His Father, His Mentor)....then enjoy your church of one......your thinking does not hold water against what is written......new or old testiment

The authorities on spiritual abuse and toxic discipleship, ie: those who are professional Christian counsellors who are specially qualified to counsel believers in bondage to toxic disciplers say that people who are authoritarian disciplers will treat a person who questions that type of discipling will turn things around and treat that person if they have the problem. It is interesting to me that this is what you are doing here.

Instead of being prepared to discuss the issue, you are sidestepping it and treating me as if I have the problem because I am bringing the subject up and trying to make people aware of it.

So, let me ask you: Do you feel that you have to obey your church leaders without question and not examine the Scriptures to see if they are correct? If your leaders quote Scripture, do you read the 10 verses before and after their quote to make sure they are quoting Scripture in its proper context?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira, or Miriam and Aaron, when you rise up or lie to the ones God has put over you, there will be consequences......I suggest for your own safety remaining in your church of one, I see only problems for the church you join and for yourself, and that will not be good for anyone

I suspect that you are in a church where you obey your leaders without question. This is why you are treating me as if I have a problem because I have brought up a problem in many of our churches. If you obey without question your leaders without checking out their quidance with Christ and through a contextual study of the Scripture, you are replacing Christ and the Holy Spirit with the leaders' instructions and guidance. This is idolatory.

Get a concordance and read the Scriptures about not following men. See if you can see any Scriptural reference where Jesus or the Apostles expected unquestioned obedience from other believers.

The real test is that what happens when you detemine that what your leader is telling you is wrong and you bring it up with him. What does he do? Is he prepared to discuss the issue with you, or does he treat you as if you have the problem, ie: a problem with obedience?

Good leaders will listen to others and discuss issues, because they realise that their leadership of others is advisory. And they are humble enough to realise that they could be wrong sometimes and are prepared to accept correction from others.

Is your pastor prepared to wash the feet of the congregation? That's what Jesus did.

Is you pastor or leader conducting himself like a servant to the congregation, or is he conducting himself like the boss of everyone and his teaching and instruction has to be accepted with question or dissention?

Do you have the faith and courage to put your pastor or leader to the test?

True spiritual authority comes when your pastor leads you by example through his personal holiness, love for Christ, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit and love, as outlined in 1 Corinthians 13. You follow him and listen to his teaching because you see that his life matches it. You don't accept what he says at face value, but you look deeper to see if his own life and the way he treats others matches his teaching.

Jesus told His disciples to do what the Scribes and Pharisees told them to do, but not to do what they did, because their attitudes and personal lives did not match their teaching.

Do you really know whether your pastor or leader is a true leader or a Pharisee? Are you prepared to find out?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am an elder in my church. I have no problems obeying Jesus Christ. I listen to His voice because He started speaking to me in 1969, so through experience I have learned to distinquish His still small voice from all the other voices that come to us. I have never stopped learning, and the more experienced I become the less I think I know about the ways of God. But I am totally dependent on Him, and I feel that I am still being discipled by Him.

i am very fussy about who I listen to. I spent seven years in a church where the leaders believed they had a special ear to God and that they should be obeyed without question. Anyone who disagreed with them were accused of rebelling against their shepherds. What resulted was many disillusioned, hurt, damaged believers, some of whom left the church altogether. Some even left the Christian faith because they could not see that God is totally separate from the church and its leaders.

As a church leader, I would never expect obedience to me. When I give teaching, I allow people to take it or leave it. I would expect them to study the Scriptures for themselves to see if I am right or not.

Also, people will read me before they read the Bible, therefore I know that my life and the way I treat others has to match up with what I teach. If I teach dependence on Christ, then I need to show by my life that I am totally dependent on Him.

I am also prophetic, and when I give prophecies I will never say "thus says the Lord", because I don't think I have that level of authority. I expect people to judge my prophecies and to give me feedback.

I would never instruct people about who they should marry, whether they should attend Bible College or not, what job they should have, what they should wear, or any other non moral part of their lives. I respect that their private lives are their own business and they have the right to live them without being micro-managed by me.

In moral issues, I follow the Scriptural pattern of going to the person on my own, if they won't listen, I go again with two or three witnesses, and only when they will not listen to that, I will inform the church - not the whole congregation, but those who are praying for him and are concerned about his spiritual welfare.

I would never tell anyone to leave the church because they disagree with my theology. I don't have that right because it is not my church, but Christ's.

Although I will teach a discipleship class on the first principles of the Christian faith, my role is to increase their faith and dependence on Christ. I would do myself out of a job as each believer became more dependent on Christ than me. I would never enter into a personal one-to-one discipleship relationship. It is too risky. It would have the effect of having that person more dependent on me than Christ, thereby causing that person to commit idolatory.

My role as a church elder is that of a servant. I am serving the congregation, seeing to build up their faith and equip them for service.

I have some major disagreements with my minister at times and I voice them in the right venue - in the elder's meeting. I don't mention them outside of that meeting. My minister is humble enough to spend time discussing the issues and we come to workable compromises.

Although I disagree with my minister in some issues, I respect her role in the church, and that she is appropriately trained in theology and ministry. We called and appointed her to the role, and we believe that she does her best to live the life and to be an example of what a Christian minister should be. She has her faults, as we all do, but they do not stop us respecting her and following her lead when it is to build and grow the church.

I have other very capable mentors in the ministries I am involved with, but they do not set rules for me, and I do not obey them without question. I see those men as much more experienced in the prophetic than me, and I give attention to their teaching, and respect them because their lives are matching what they teach.

I know that I have said some things about myself, but I am not justifying myself to anyone here. I am merely pointing out what I am at as far as my position toward those who lead me, my fellow elders, and those whom I serve in the church. I believe that I am no-one special in this regard, and there are many on this forum who have the same attitude as the ones I have pointed out.

What I am saying is that if you are in a church and in bondage to an authoritarian leadership and are afraid to either speak out or leave the church for fear of disobeying God, be encouraged, because Jesus does not expect you to be under man's rule of law. You can get yourself out from under those leaders and leave that church without feeling that you are deserting Christ.

Your relationship with Christ is totally separate from the church. The church does not have authority in itself. Any spiritual effectiveness or authority that any church has is for the healing of the sick and casting out demons, and it has only what Christ has given it. The whole point of going to church is to know Christ personally and be totally dependent on Him. Any man whether he be a pastor or any type of leader who imposes on you a set of rules and requirements to obey him over and above what Christ reveals to you in your heart, is doing out of his own mind and ambition toward you. He is doing it to prop up his own sense of power and authority, and not reflecting the spirit of Christ.

Find some good books on Toxic Faith, Twisted Scriptures, and Spiritual Abuse, and these will help make you aware of the issues I am talking about.

 

[mrhappy3]

well said.

Is true that the longer we are in this - the less we really know!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sure - our churches are FULL of 'em. Often "Being Discipled" means: "Just another Sunday School Class".

 

[TasManOfGod]

I have certainly not taken over someone's life and subjected them to a set of "christian" instructions about how to live their lives. This is another way of saying they have to live by the terms of the law. Jesus saves us and keeps us by His grace and all we do is rest in Him.

A lot of the "disciplining" of others is just making them live by the law, which Paul condemns in Galatians.

So you take an erroneous viewpoint of "discipleship " and because of it you say there shouln't be any.
Is that a correct read?

 

[TasManOfGod]

Often, new Christians are not discipled as they should be. Someone needs to take these new believers under their wing and teach them discipleship. There is a very good discipleship study book called, "Real-Life Discipleship Training Manual: Equipping Disciples Who Make Disciples" by Avery T. Willis, Jr., Jim Putman, Bill Krause, Brandon Guindon.

There are 5 spiritual stages which include Dead in Christ, Spiritual Infant, Spiritual Child, Spiritual Young Adult, and Spiritual Parent. So to answer your question about growth..you should be growing. The sad truth is that many people who have been Christians for years never grow into a Spiritual Parent or even a Spiritual Young Adult. Some don't move beyond a spiritual infant or child. If you want to learn about how to be a disciple and how to disciple others, I highly recommend this book.

Ahh - A little light in amongst much darkness

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So you take an erroneous viewpoint of "discipleship " and because of it you say there shouln't be any.
Is that a correct read?

Did I say that? Definitely no. You are going from one extreme to the other.

Jesus modelled what good discipleship is. Read the Gospels to see how He did it, because He is the model.

What I am identifying as bad discipleship are people who think they know enough have power and control over others and who get in between a believer and Jesus. These shonky disciplers set their own rules and regulations where Jesus sets none. They force believers to follow them instead of Jesus.

You are taking a position that I have a problem because I am identifying a problem. That is the classic response of a carnal discipler.

Remember, for every genuine attribute of Christian faith and life there are the devil's counterfeits, which are so close to the genuine it is difficult to tell them apart. This is why so many good believers, even mature ones, are deceived into toxic discipleship practices.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ahh - A little light in amongst much darkness

So who makes the judgment about the level of a Christian? If it is men in positions of power and control, it is still carnal, fleshly discipleship.