Is it okay to go to a church with a female pastor?

[Sabertooth]

But God does call some women to be pastors.

Pastrices (plural of pastrix).

 

[Strong in Him]

It's easy to be glib about what Paul knew, and historical context, but, well, Paul said what he said.

It's not what he said but what he meant that's important.
Jesus said that if our right hand causes us to sin, we must cut it off - did he mean that literally?

> "What do you mean by "usurp" and how do women do this?"

Good question. I use it in the general usage sense of the English language.

Usurp = to snatch violently by force.
How do women do this? How can anyone snatch authority that is freely given?

Look, there are some parts of the Bible that the flesh would like to discard or reinterpret, and I, as much as any man would like to ramrod some interpretation upon them, but, I don't. If we start saying that it was a different time, and different place, we may as well do that for murder, adultery, theft, etc...

That's why we need to study, to read the passages in context and understand what the author is saying, and what the audience he was writing to would have understood by his words.
Would people who received Paul's letters have believed that he was telling women to sit down, be quiet and play no part in worship? Very unlikely, as they knew he had told women how to pray and prophesy, that he had female co-workers etc.

One amazing influence in my Christian youth was Kathryn Kuhlman. I was edified by her ministry, but, you know what? She wasn't a real teacher,

According to you.
You say that you were edified by her, and then claim that she wasn't who she said she was - what does that mean for your faith?

and we could go on and on about Deborah, Priscilla, etc...but, it just doesn't change what Paul said. And, Paul himself knew these people much better than we do.

It means that either Paul's words don't mean what you think they mean, or God contradicts himself.

AAMOF, I attended a Bible College that was administered/taught by one of Aimee Semple MacPherson's associates. He had at least preached under her, and he was quite erudite. He had a doctorate, and was fluent in Greek, Hebrew. He called Aimee the Greatest Woman (I can't remember if he called her the Greatest, or Greatest Woman) Preacher in the World. I was all for women ministering in any office in the church; I was a light to those in darkness, smugly pointing out that the first of Jesus' disciples to tell of his Resurrection were women. but, I couldn't get past this verse.

But if you find people who HAVE "got past the verse", and if you see evidence that God has called, and does call, women to be preachers, doesn't that at least make you think that just maybe you have got this wrong? That you have interpreted the verse at face value and are applying it rigidly today when that is not was intended?

I, myself, do not have a good way to integrate all of the Scriptures that we have to work with on this matter.

That's why studying, reading in context and trying to understand the situation they were addressing, is important.
God does not contradict himself.

MY whole point is that Paul, and we all know of what his Authority consisted, used it to bolster his argument. Paul. The New Testament Paul. Again, he doesn't just throw this stuff around. Apparently, order of creation DOES matter, to God.

So why are many women called to preach?
Why have there been many female preachers over the years?
Why did God choose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection and the first to proclaim - to a group of men - that Jesus was alive?
Why doesn't God discipline, and remove, all female preachers who are preaching the Gospel in his name and saying "God called me to do this"?

But, I must yield to Paul.

Fine - as long as you also "yield to Paul" when he said that it is better not to get married. Or that it is good to drink wine, instead of water, if you are frequently ill. Or that any woman under the age of 60 who has been widowed is an idle gossiper and does not deserve support from the church. Or that men mustn't have long hair - though he doesn't specify length. Or that women can pray, prophesy and speak in tongues, but they must be silent, (good luck trying to implement that one).

"Can a woman not find a different way to fulfill her ministry than to contradict one Scripture?"

A woman's ministry and service to God is whatever HE calls her to do.

And building a doctrine on ONE Scripture, while ignoring what Jesus and the early church taught, and what God is doing now, is not good.

Further, I can't find a better place to add this in this post, but, Prophesying is different than teaching, and different than leading an army, as per Deborah.

If a woman cannot have authority over men, and if that is from God himself, then he should never have called Deborah to be judge over the whole nation; sorting out men's disputes, Judges 4:4.
Prophecy involves teaching. Huldah, an OT prophetess, told a group of male priests to take a word from God to the king. The priests had chosen to consult her rather than a male prophet, 2 Kings 22:14. What's more, the king listened, learned what God wanted him to do and it led to a revival.
Just as you were edified by a female teacher, this OT prophetess edified many people and helped the nation turn back to God.

God does not contradict himself.

 

[Paidiske]

It's actually an extremely small price to pay.

I don't think so. Any time anyone in the church is discouraged from using their gifts, disallowed from fulfilling their vocation, we all pay a large price. The body is crippled and our mission is impoverished.

The cost to the church and the mission (leaving aside the costliness to the people concerned) is deep.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Can't help you out in re the dogs.

God gave us dogs to teach us how to be good masters, and God gave us cats to teach us how to be good servants.

 

[Strong in Him]

You're behavior encourages me to stand against you in every form I can. You're the type of woman that does more harm to the cause than good.

Nonsense; you know nothing about me, and it would be wrong of you to make a judgement.
Just as it would be wrong of me to form an opinion of you based on your grammar.

I'm not going to touch on Esther because she was a harlot.

She was a Jew - what Bible are you reading?

But let's touch on Deborah:

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

If she was self-sufficient as she was there would be no need to drag her husband into the matter.

No one dragged her husband into anything - he was mentioned because genealogies, and where people came from, were important to the Jews.

We never hear about Lapidoth before this nor after this.

Exactly - it's not like Deborah asked his opinion, or advice. Or that he said "we need to pray before you become a judge or prophetess"

Even as a prophetess her husband was associated with her.

He wasn't associated with her - he is mentioned one time in one verse.
There is nothing at all to show that he played any part in Deborah's ministry as judge over all Israel.

We see this, with Miriam the sister of Aaron [Ex. 15:20] and Huldah the wife of Shallum [2 King 22:14] Culturally speaking, most of the women in the Old Testament had their reputations boosted by her association with godly men.

We have no idea whether Shallum was a godly man or not. As for Aaron, most of the time, yes - but he led the Israelites into sin by making a golden calf.

You make a big deal about how Barak told Deborah to go with him and that she went. She went with him to Kedesh but she did not go with him into battle as a careful reading of it would show. He went down from Mt. Tabor with 10,000 men, but not with Deborah.

It doesn't matter; I was telling you what happened.
Deborah gave Barak a word from the Lord. IF the NT teaching is that women cannot teach or have authority over men, that should not have happened. Barak said - in response to this command from God - "I won't go unless you go with me". Deborah replied, "certainly I will go with you, but because of the course you are taking , the honour will not be yours. Sisera will be delivered into the hands of a woman", Judges 4:9.
She didn't have to be on the battle field or in the front line. She told Barak what God commanded, and when Barak wouldn't obey, she told him that the enemy would be defeated by a woman. If Barak had obeyed what God told him, through Deborah, he would have got the glory for defeating the enemy.

Deborah was as an encouraging mother, a prophetess who conveyed the message of the Lord. But being a prophetess did not elevate her above the men.

No.
But you and others claim that NT teaching says that women cannot teach or have authority over men. Deborah sorted out men's disputes, Judges 4:5, she told Barak what God wanted, Judges 4:6-7, and then she told him that he had not obeyed God and would therefore not receive any reward, Judges 4:9. She guided the enemy so that he fell into Barak's hands - and he, Sisera, was killed by a woman.
None of that could have happened if God did not allow women to speak or have authority over men.

Barak commanded the troops. Rulers and princes came down from the tribes. Zebulun recruited; Reuben sent divisions of men. War is not a one woman affair, but a collaborated effort; and Deborah gave the word from God and the men organized the troops.

She was also judge over the entire nation and sorted out men's disputes, Judges 4:5 - is that not "having authority over"? Even the leader of the army would not go and do his job unless she was with him.

Her gift was understanding in judgment; the ability to rightly divide the word of truth and give fair judgment to the people. Being a judge is not the same as being a ruler.

In the days before they had kings, Israel had judges.
Deborah was a judge - every bit as much as Gideon and Samson. When Godly judges ruled, the nation was turned towards God. When the Godly judge died, they did evil and turned away, Judges 2:16-19.

And being a prophetess is not the same as being a preacher or a pastor in the modern sense of the term.

No, but it still involves giving God's word to men.
In the case of Barak, Deborah told him what to do. In the case of Huldah, the king was perturbed and asked his male priests to enquire of the Lord. They chose to go to a prophetess to ask her what God wanted - and the king obeyed what she said.

Preaching a sermon is not about telling people what to do - yet women seemed to do this in the OT.

So give credit where credit is due and acknowledge the valiant efforts and calm collected effort of the men who fought in Judges 4-5.

I haven't said otherwise.

When talking about women's roles, people have said that a woman cannot lead because they cannot have authority over men.
Deborah is one example which disproves that - she was raised up by God TO lead.
You say that if she had forcibly taken charge of the army she would have been usurping a man's role - how many armies do female Ministers/Pastors take charge of? How, then, do they usurp a man's authority?

And if you won't do that then acknowledge it's God who establishes and God who tears down and he chose women far less than he chose men.

Yes, it's God who establishes. And it's God who calls women to whatever role he chooses.
It doesn't matter that God chose women less than he chose men - he still chose them. And does so today.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

According to scripture, the Senior Pastor must be a man and the only exception is if there is not a man in the assembly. Is there an Adult Male there?

I would be careful with that. One should not be seen as fit to lead an assembly simply because of their gender.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[Halbhh]

Is it okay to go to a church with a female pastor?

A while back I left my old church where I grew up because I didn't feel my relationship with God was growing. I would often show up every Sunday because I was being forced to my family and it made me hate church and God at the time. Also, I felt like I was riding on my parents faith rather than actually believing the bible and reading and studying it on my own. So I decided to take a break from church for a little and go somewhere else. The church in previous attended was a church of Christ that was very traditional. This new church I've been going to seems a little more modern. They use instruments which I don't really see an issue with even though my family does, but they also have a female pastor. She's not a lead pastor but she comes up occasionally and preaches but the lead pastor is a male. And this is where the issue comes in. Ive been doing my my own research and I often find that in books like 2 Timothy it forbids it, but I really enjoy coming here. I've felt my relationship with God growing, I've been praying more, and I have a desire to come to church now. But this has been tugging at me for the last few weeks. Please help.

It helps to remember much is decided/written in the bible to help save sinners, including the culturally prejudiced men in the 1rst century.

And that very fact is also in scripture: We see the amazing chapter of 1rst Corinthians 8 was written laying out the key principle.

That even when we know what is better -- more perfect -- we may have to temporarily in some place/time accept what is much less good for the sake of the weak who would be destroyed by our better understanding, our more full freedom in Christ they are not ready for:

1 Corinthians 8 NIV

Paul uses an example about even just a basic food: meat eating (where did the meat come from was an issue, but we are to take the general lesson, which is also repeated in Romans 14)

In 1 Cor 8 Paul says this key instruction to us:

13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

(!) wow....

I'm glad that's not the situation today! (but if a vegetarian joined the church, then in a church pot luck I might have to make a vegetable!....)

But this is exactly why the women in the 1rst century had to be silent instead of demanding additional rapid revolution in their status.

In the early church, women found much new freedom -- worshipping with the men for the first time for example -- and the many new freedoms made them hungry for the full final equality they deserved:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians chapter 3)

But it was too much for some of the weak men in the churches!

So, the women at that time would have to sacrifice for the weak men of the 1rst century....

Yet, in some other cities, it was already changing:

Already it had begun that many women were centrally important/key in the work of the early church:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 16 - New International Version

As you see, they are already doing about 1/2 of the work in the church, and it's best if that is true today also!
Today in the U.S., in most communities, the men will do just fine with a woman pastor, and will not be destroyed and lose faith if a woman does the preaching.