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I don't need to read it to know what it says.I agree with your last statement. Your paraphrasing of my words, though, is not what I said nor what I meant. Regarding keeping the Sabbath in the Church age, I offer this page. If you just want to skim to get to the meat, just go there and search the word "Sabbath". You'll see where I'm coming from on this. I pretty much agree with the points I'm seeing there.
Val Boyle - Christian Advanced Bible Studies Volume 1 - The Sabbath And The New Testament Church
Val Boyle - Christian Advanced Bible Studies Volume 1 - The Sabbath And The New Testament Churchbible-truths-today.com
Finally, though Jesus gave us over 40 "commandments", I really focus on two that sum up the entire thing for followers of Jesus. Love God, and love your neighbor. Everything - EVERYTHING - falls under those two commandments. And yes, one way we love God is by keeping His commandments. But I'm not a part of Israel. I don't sacrifice animals, and I don't tithe either.
No. I'm one of the people that sez my salvation is not based on "how much I give". We were created as his imager on this particular planet. We are his caretakers of this world. And there are two aspects of that job that Jesus made very clear to us:I don't need to read it to know what it says.
So you're one of the the people who say I will give God as little as I can? I figure I owe Him a lot. I owe Him all I have and all I am as He gave everything He had to give, His life.
So, in your analogy the rich dad would never get angry with his kid if he never cleaned his room. He just refused every time he was asked.No. I'm one of the people that sez my salvation is not based on "how much I give". We were created as his imager on this particular planet. We are his caretakers of this world. And there are two aspects of that job that Jesus made very clear to us:
Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" (Matthew 22:37-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28)
I do my best to follow both, knowing that he's not going to fire me if I'm not his star employee. It doesn't mean I don't try to be, but it sure takes the pressure off.
I see Christians as a kid that is the son of a very rich man who tells his son to clean up his room. Now, I know my father's personality and he has said clearly that he will not write me out of the will if I don't clean up my room. That doesn't mean I don't need to clean up my room, though. What it does mean is that he loves me and he's not going to disown me if I don't clean up my room. It means I have free will and a choice. And I choose to clean up my room. But if I should ever NOT clean up my room, I'll suffer consequences, but as a teaching opportunity to learn to be better.
The other kid whos father is also rich is told to clean up his room. And his father, Allah, WILL write him out of the will if he doesn't do it. My father is a bit more forgiving. But still, as stated in Romans 6, it doesn't give me carte blanch to ignore His will. And my actions don't show those of a loving obedient child if I choose not to clean up my room.
I could go on, but I think you get my drift. When it comes to the commandments of God, we Christians are, IMO, given permission to be "spirit of the law" people rather than "letter of the law" people. And this matters since many of those laws are less than reliably translated and/or transliterated in our modern bibles. i.e. I don't see the bible as "the" word of God. Rather, I believe it contains the word of God. And in the Spirit of 2 Timothy 3-16,17, I'll take the LXX over the limited scope of books contained in our modern English Bibles.
And we all literally owe him our life since he created it. But it's better to use it to His benefit rather than become "so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good." That's why I'm not a monk living in the mountains somewhere. That's not what he created us for. IMO, of course.
To simplify it, yes, sort of. That is, that kid's disobedience would lead to a "hell on earth" life in this reality and in the afterlife he'd be the guy mentioned in 1 Cor 3:15.So, in your analogy the rich dad would never get angry with his kid if he never cleaned his room. He just refused every time he was asked.
So you believe works are what people do to be saved?To simplify it, yes, sort of. That is, that kid's disobedience would lead to a "hell on earth" life in this reality and in the afterlife he'd be the guy mentioned in 1 Cor 3:15.
Honestly, I'm so thankful that Jesus does not put a limit on God's forgiveness. What a great Dad!
I thought I was communicating exactly the opposite. That is certainly what I meant by quoting 1 cor 3. The whole point is that he is still saved, in spite of his works or lack thereof. However, works seem to determine your reward beyond simple eternal life. I suppose in "eternity" some will have nicer* houses than others.So you believe works are what people do to be saved?
You have quoted the text a couple times that says their works shall be burned up. As I don't believe the same way you do how can you expect me to understand what you mean?I thought I was communicating exactly the opposite. That is certainly what I meant by quoting 1 cor 3. The whole point is that he is still saved, in spite of his works or lack thereof. However, works seem to determine your reward beyond simple eternal life. I suppose in "eternity" some will have nicer* houses than others.
*I'm simply pointing out that I see "eternal life" as the universal gift of God to the believer, but it goes beyond that, otherwise it would not say what it does in 1 Cor 3.
I find it necessary more than I should, I think to have to say "that's not what I said". I already know I'm a pretty good communicator in forums (I've been doing it since 1997 and have gotten a lot of feedback in that area), but sometimes I find myself discussing topics with people who either really don't want to hear the points I'm making or don't actually read much of my posts. I admit that I can often get long winded, but sometimes a reading of my full post will actually answer the question the person is asking me.
I'm saying that they are saved by belief, but their rewards will be determined by their works. i.e. you make it on the ark by believing. But if you never did your chores on the boat you might find that you live in a mud hut after the "flood" while thee guy that did his chores lives in a nice place and drives a Cadillac.You have quoted the text a couple times that says their works shall be burned up. As I don't believe the same way you do how can you expect me to understand what you mean?
To me you are saying people are saved by their works.
I'll tell you how I read the text. The works we do are for others. God uses us to help spread the Gospel and thus if we build that foundation upon flammable material, error, our works will be burnt up as we have not taught people the truth and people live out their beliefs. That is how we suffer loss, but we still have the opportunity to be saved if we repent and change our minds.
The devil has been deceiving people since he sinned in heaven. What cost him? His beliefs that he could defeat God. He has been living out that belief ever since.
I think "The Devil" is usually referring to an elohim's particular job description rather than a particular person in the elohim.The devil has been deceiving people since he sinned in heaven. What cost him? His beliefs that he could defeat God. He has been living out that belief ever since.
There are scriptures that directly refute once saved always saved.I'm saying that they are saved by belief, but their rewards will be determined by their works. i.e. you make it on the ark by believing. But if you never did your chores on the boat you might find that you live in a mud hut after the "flood" while thee guy that did his chores lives in a nice place and drives a Cadillac.
Obviously that's just an analogy, but I think you get my drift.
We keep the Sabbath by having Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith. He has become our Sabbath, whom we worship in Spirit and in truth, seven days a week, 24 hours a day.Yes it is. In God's final warning messages to the world we find a call to worship the Creator.
Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
The call to worship in Revelation 14:7 brings us back to the Sabbath Commandment which God set aside specifically for holy purposes:
Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Throughout the scriptures we can see an emphasis on the recognition of the Creator.
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Psalm 33:6
By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 96:4-5
4 For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens.
Psalm 121:1-2
1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
Acts 4:24
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
By keeping the Sabbath holy, as He commanded us, we show our love for Him and give recognition of His authority in our life.
1 John 5:1-3
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Now some people say it doesn't matter what day we worship and God doesn't care, but He does.
Isaiah 58:14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
And Christ Himself set for us the example...
Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Scripture please.We keep the Sabbath by having Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith. He has become our Sabbath, whom we worship in Spirit and in truth, seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
I see nothing in Hebrews 4 that says Jesus is our rest.Hebrews 4.
Also see How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest? | GotQuestions.org
I see nothing in Hebrews 4 that says Jesus is our rest.
Hebrews 4: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hi Gary, just checking... are you thinking of that as Jesus of Nazareth or the "Jesus" who led the Israelites into Canaan?8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
They are one and the same person.Hi Gary, just checking... are you thinking of that as Jesus of Nazareth or the "Jesus" who led the Israelites into Canaan?
Are you saying that these two passages refer to the same person?They are one and the same person.
Huh? What are you talking about? Hebrews 4 doesn't mention Joshua.Are you saying that these two passages refer to the same person?
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 1:38 - New American Standard Bible
Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, shall himself enter there; encourage him, for he will give it to Israel as an inheritance.www.biblegateway.com
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 1:31-32 - New American Standard Bible
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;www.biblegateway.com
If you wish to hold to the Old Testament Jewish Sabbath, instead of looking to Jesus as your Sabbath rest, that is your choice. My Sabbath (Jesus) dwells in my heart through faith and that is good enough for me.I see nothing in Hebrews 4 that says Jesus is our rest.
Hebrews 4: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
So it doesn't bother you in the least that you hold a non-Biblical belief?If you wish to hold to the Old Testament Jewish Sabbath, instead of looking to Jesus as your Sabbath rest, that is your choice. My Sabbath (Jesus) dwells in my heart through faith and that is good enough for me.
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