Is it good to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass?

[DamianWarS]

Why? Circumcision is the physical mark given to Abraham to show his. and his descendant's, allegiance to God which means it is not part of God's law. Since we aren't Israelites/Jews it is not applicable to us. But Sabbath worship is as at least twice in the OT God says it is a sign of allegiance to Him and that He is the one who sanctifies us.



This is God's promise to us that He will save us and that He has always loved us. Why wouldn't we respond with love to that message?

Gen 17:11-14
You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Ex 31:12-17
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy. “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

both are signs of their covenants (explicitly), both are for generations to come, both are everlasting, breaking the commandment means breaking the covenant and being cut off from the people. Sabbath also includes the penalty of death, and based on Moses and Ziphora's circumcision incident not breaking the commandment for circumcision means death too.

I see extreme similarities, yet we do not teach or value physical circumcision despite its very clear requirement. Why should Sabbath be treated differently? Sabbath command is not addressed to us, it is explicitly "a sign between me and the Israelites forever". The Sabbath is binding to this "between me and the Israelites" relationship. It also happens to be the 4th commandment written on what's called "the tablets of covenant law" and then it is placed inside the "ark of the covenant". I call this a covenant relationship, you may use whatever terms you desire but it doesn't change that it is addressed to Israel.

You may want to spiritualize Israel to claim the church is spiritual Israel and Sabbath is still its sign and I would agree with that but Sabbath is spiritualized along with it, just as circumcision is still a sign of us being called apart, yet it is spiritual circumcision not physical so is Sabbath. Sabbath points to salvation in Christ and physical rest cannot get us there, the only way to get the spiritual rest is through Christ. I know you really really really don't want to accept this, but this is most consistent way to view the law. God is a god of order not guesswork, why would he be so cryptic? if we treat circumcision differently than the Sabbath then there needs to be strong support that establishes why since they have such strong similarities and that support is absent. You end heavily leaning upon equivocation fallacies trying to claim when scripture says "God's commandments" what it really means is "the 10 commandments". That's not good enough, we need to think more critically about this rather than these "because I said so" answers.

 

[Gary K]

Gen 17:11-14
You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Ex 31:12-17
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy. “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

both are signs of their covenants (explicitly), both are for generations to come, both are everlasting, breaking the commandment means breaking the covenant and being cut off from the people. Sabbath also includes the penalty of death, and based on Moses and Ziphora's circumcision incident not breaking the commandment for circumcision means death too.

I see extreme similarities, yet we do not teach or value physical circumcision despite its very clear requirement. Why should Sabbath be treated differently? Sabbath command is not addressed to us, it is explicitly "a sign between me and the Israelites forever". The Sabbath is binding to this "between me and the Israelites" relationship. It also happens to be the 4th commandment written on what's called "the tablets of covenant law" and then it is placed inside the "ark of the covenant". I call this a covenant relationship, you may use whatever terms you desire but it doesn't change that it is addressed to Israel.

You may want to spiritualize Israel to claim the church is spiritual Israel and Sabbath is still its sign and I would agree with that but Sabbath is spiritualized along with it, just as circumcision is still a sign of us being called apart, yet it is spiritual circumcision not physical so is Sabbath. Sabbath points to salvation in Christ and physical rest cannot get us there, the only way to get the spiritual rest is through Christ. I know you really really really don't want to accept this, but this is most consistent way to view the law. God is a god of order not guesswork, why would he be so cryptic? if we treat circumcision differently than the Sabbath then there needs to be strong support that establishes why since they have such strong similarities and that support is absent. You end heavily leaning upon equivocation fallacies trying to claim when scripture says "God's commandments" what it really means is "the 10 commandments". That's not good enough, we need to think more critically about this rather than these "because I said so" answers.

Look who the rite of circumcision was given to:

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Abraham is called the father of the faithful and we believing Gentile's are Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Unless you want to divorce yourself from the Hebrews you must accept your spiritual relationship to the Hebrews. I wouldn't recommend any Christian divorce themselves from the Hebrews unless they want to stop being a Christian.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. I am not a tyrant who would tell someone else what they can or cannot do.

By "it's okay", I meant not breaking any Commandments you believe are for today.

So... Are you saying it doesn't break any Commandments for the stranger who is not part of your household to work at the data center, but not your maidservant?

 

[Leaf473]

...Sabbath is spiritualized along with it, just as circumcision is still a sign of us being called apart, yet it is spiritual circumcision not physical so is Sabbath.

And that's the key, I believe.

 

[Gary K]

By "it's okay", I meant not breaking any Commandments you believe are for today.

So... Are you saying it doesn't break any Commandments for the stranger who is not part of your household to work at the data center, but not your maidservant?

Yes. I thought I answered this. Sorry.

 

[Gary K]

@Leaf473

Did you forget about this post?

Is it good to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass?

Why? Circumcision is the physical mark given to Abraham to show his. and his descendant's, allegiance to God which means it is not part of God's law. Since we aren't Israelites/Jews it is not applicable to us. But Sabbath worship is as at least twice in the OT God says it is a sign of...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. I thought I answered this. Sorry.

Thanks for your answer That's a very different view from every other seventh day observer I've talked with, but thanks for taking the time to explain!

 

[Gary K]

Thanks for your answer That's a very different view from every other seventh day observer I've talked with, but thanks for taking the time to explain!

No problem, It was my pleasure.

 

[Leaf473]

@Leaf473

Did you forget about this post?

Is it good to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass?

Why? Circumcision is the physical mark given to Abraham to show his. and his descendant's, allegiance to God which means it is not part of God's law. Since we aren't Israelites/Jews it is not applicable to us. But Sabbath worship is as at least twice in the OT God says it is a sign of...

www.christianforums.com

Not at all. I believe you responded with

Yes. I am not a tyrant who would tell someone else what they can or cannot do.

Which is why I wanted to clarify that I was asking about what you believed the Commandments to be, not whether you were a tyrant or someone who wanted to control other people.

 

[Gary K]

Not at all. I believe you responded with

Which is why I wanted to clarify that I was asking about what you believed the Commandments to be, not whether you were a tyrant or someone who wanted to control other people.

You did not reply to the scripture I gave you or my comments.

 

[Leaf473]

You did not reply to the scripture I gave you or my comments.

I believe some confusion arose because the link that you posted is to post #283 by @DamianWarS.

However, I was confused by the text inside of it that was "unfurled", and thought you wanted me to go back to look at #281

 

[Gary K]

I believe some confusion arose because the link that you posted is to post #283 by @DamianWarS.

However, I was confused by the text inside of it that was "unfurled", and thought you wanted me to go back to look at #281

I'm sorry I thought I had posted that to you. That's what you get for me not paying attention.

 

[DamianWarS]

Look who the rite of circumcision was given to:



Abraham is called the father of the faithful and we believing Gentile's are Abraham's seed.



Unless you want to divorce yourself from the Hebrews you must accept your spiritual relationship to the Hebrews. I wouldn't recommend any Christian divorce themselves from the Hebrews unless they want to stop being a Christian.

I embrace the spiritual relationship, I value the entire law including circumcision and Sabbath or anything you label as "moral and ceremonial", it's not the dichotomy that I value, my focus is on their spiritual counterparts and deeper meanings. physical circumcision is nothing, spiritual circumcision is the goal. physical rest has a physical product and may restore us physically but spiritual rest is the goal not physical.

As Jesus puts it: "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

 

[Gary K]

I embrace the spiritual relationship, I value the entire law including circumcision and Sabbath or anything you label as "moral and ceremonial", it's not the dichotomy that I value, my focus is on their spiritual counterparts and deeper meanings. physical circumcision is nothing, spiritual circumcision is the goal. physical rest has a physical product and may restore us physically but spiritual rest is the goal not physical.

As Jesus puts it: "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

You have an odd way of showing you value something. I value that relationship far more because I demonstrate it in my behavior. We live out what we truly believe and value. That is human nature.

 

[DamianWarS]

You have an odd way of showing you value something. I value that relationship far more because I demonstrate it in my behavior. We live out what we truly believe and value. That is human nature.

Because we've landed at different conclusions means in no way you value it more than I do. I love to study the law and constantly desire to demonstrate it's values daily living out it's meaning so that others may see the glory of God. You've presented no convincing argument here, full of inconsistencies hinging on made up unbiblical lables and gas lighting terms that can't be defended which is frankly deceitful. Yet I don't value the law? What you value is tradition but inot anything biblically revealed.

 

[Gary K]

Because we've landed at different conclusions means in no way you value it more than I do. I love to study the law and constantly desire to demonstrate it's values daily living out it's meaning so that others may see the glory of God. You've presented no convincing argument here, full of inconsistencies hinging on made up unbiblical lables and gas lighting terms that can't be defended which is frankly deceitful. Yet I don't value the law? What you value is tradition but inot anything biblically revealed.

OK. So just the plain word of God isn't good enough for you. I'll give you the words of someone who makes no claim to be inspired.

Here is John Calvin's commentary on Galatians 5: 23 from his book Commentaries on Galatians and Ephesians.

23. Against such there is no law. Some understand these words as meaning simply that
the law is not directed against good works, “from evil manners have sprung good laws.” But
Paul’s real meaning is deeper and less obvious; namely, that, where the Spirit reigns, the law
has no longer any dominion. By moulding our hearts to his own righteousness, the Lord
delivers us from the severity of the law, so that our intercourse with himself is not regulated
by its covenant, nor our consciences bound by its sentence of condemnation. Yet the law
continues to teach and exhort, and thus performs its own office; but our subjection to it is
withdrawn by the Spirit of adoption. He thus ridicules the false apostles, who, while they
enforced subjection to the law, were not less eager to release themselves from its yoke. The
only way, he tells us, in which this is accomplished, is, when the Spirit of God obtains
dominion, from which we are led to conclude that they had no proper regard to spiritual
righteousness.

As you can see Calvin is saying the same thing I am.

 

[trophy33]

John Calvin's Teaching on the Fourth Commandment​

From the Geneva Catechism (ca. 1560)

168. Let us come to the fourth commandment. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

169. Does he order us to labor on six days, that we may rest on the seventh?
Not absolutely; but allowing man six days for labor, he excepts the seventh, that it may be devoted to rest.

170. Does he interdict us from all kind of labor?
This commandment has a separate and peculiar reason. As the observance of rest is part of the old ceremonies, it was abolished by the advent of Christ.

171. Do you mean that this commandment properly refers to the Jews, and was therefore merely temporary?
I do, in as far as it is ceremonial.

Calvin's View of the Sabbath

 

[Leaf473]

OK. So just the plain word of God isn't good enough for you. I'll give you the words of someone who makes no claim to be inspired.

Here is John Calvin's commentary on Galatians 5: 23 from his book Commentaries on Galatians and Ephesians.



As you can see Calvin is saying the same thing I am.

Please excuse my jumping in here.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:24 - New Living Translation

These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.

www.biblegateway.com

When people say The plain word of God, they often mean a literal interpretation. One reason why I don't like to stop there is because of what Paul does above. Scripture can contain illustrations that aren't on the surface.

 

[Gary K]

Please excuse my jumping in here.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:24 - New Living Translation

These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.

www.biblegateway.com

When people say The plain word of God, they often mean a literal interpretation. One reason why I don't like to stop there is because of what Paul does above. Scripture can contain illustrations that aren't on the surface.

The best way to read scripture is to take it literally unless it is plainly allegorical or prophetic. That way we don't confuse ourselves.

 

[trophy33]

The best way to read scripture is to take it literally unless it is plainly allegorical or prophetic. That way we don't confuse ourselves.

The best way to read scripture is to understand what is being read. The context, genre, book, author, audience, time. And to understand how inspiration works.

For example, reading Psalms literally as a default would be wrong, because they are songs.