Is it Ever Okay to Kill

[Max S Cherry]

I tried to address this issue under the title "Pacifism," but there were not very many people interested in a wide pacifism discussion. Since I am confronted by the topics of gun control, gun rights, and worries of possible firearm legislation in nearly every newscast I see, I thought I might try to limit the discussion to one very specific pacifistic topic, killing.

As a Christian, I do not believe it is ever acceptable for one person to kill another person. What are your thoughts?

Is it ever acceptable (moral, good, etc.) to take a person's life?

If you think/believe it can be acceptable, under what circumstances would it be permitted?

If you think/believe it cannot be acceptable, what are your reasons for your view?

 

[Jro]

Self defense and/or if they listen to Nickelback.

 

[Isambard]

If the death of the person benefits you physically, emotionally, or philosophically.

 

[Belk]

I tried to address this issue under the title "Pacifism," but there were not very many people interested in a wide pacifism discussion. Since I am confronted by the topics of gun control, gun rights, and worries of possible firearm legislation in nearly every newscast I see, I thought I might try to limit the discussion to one very specific pacifistic topic, killing.

As a Christian, I do not believe it is ever acceptable for one person to kill another person. What are your thoughts?

Is it ever acceptable (moral, good, etc.) to take a person's life?

If you think/believe it can be acceptable, under what circumstances would it be permitted?

If you think/believe it cannot be acceptable, what are your reasons for your view?

I'm going to guess you wish to exclude cases like euthanasia and focus specifically on people who would not like to be killed? For me the only time I can see it being acceptable is in cases of self defense or defense of others from immediate harm.

 

[Glas Ridire]

I'm going to guess you wish to exclude cases like euthanasia and focus specifically on people who would not like to be killed? For me the only time I can see it being acceptable is in cases of self defense or defense of others from immediate harm.

Interesting. I know when I have confronted a felon and been armed, I felt that I gave the felon the opportunity to stop presenting an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. In that choice is an interesting tie in with euthanasia: The felon who realizes a citizen is armed and faced with the possibility that citizen will shoot them if they continue, who chooses to advance the attack is in fact forcing the citizen to euthanize them or be a victim. That is immoral. People who want to be euthanized should not force someone to help them.

If the felon chooses to be shot rather than surrender or fleeing, I believe that is the felon's choice. It is absolutely not wrong to ensure that one makes it home, so one can feed one's family and meet one's life-obligations. It is not wrong to stop felons from victimizing others, and is in fact the "Christian" thing to do (See OT for laws regarding if you see your neighbors livestock in trouble, see NT for Good Samaritan). Being willing to sacrifice one's self for one's family is evidence of love, but a sacrifice has to have meaning to have value. Merely adding to the death toll as many pacifist Christians will advocate is not the way to earn that special martyr's robe in heaven. Attempting to save others, attempting to stop the bad guy. . . . that is how to get the martyr's robe. There is no glory in just being a victim, one might as well step in front of a bus. A meaningless death is meaningless.

The Way of the Servant is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim.
We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Servant. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling.

From the first chapter.

 

[Shane R]

How do you reconcile your view with God's work in the OT? There are times that His purpose borders on our modern definition of genocide. Killing is a difficult subject.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Self defense and to end their suffering a la Kevorkian.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Self defense and/or if they listen to Nickelback.

I am opposed to killing, but I suppose listening to and enjoying Nickelback is just about as good a reason as any for killing someone.

If the death of the person benefits you physically, emotionally, or philosophically.

In my pre-Christian days, I would have agreed with you completely.

 

[Max S Cherry]

I'm going to guess you wish to exclude cases like euthanasia and focus specifically on people who would not like to be killed?

I do not want to exclude euthanasia, and I think that is one of the hardest cases to decide.

For me the only time I can see it being acceptable is in cases of self defense or defense of others from immediate harm.

Thank you for your response. Can I dig a little deeper?

What do you mean when you say "immediate harm?" Is it harm against someone's life only that you see as justifying killing, or do threats of other harms warrant killing as well?

I mean is preventing a rape worth killing the rapist, is preventing an extreme beating worth killing the attacker, or are there any other harms that justify killing?

Another curiosity is about war. Is waging a war to prevent a possible future harm justified, or must the harm be truly immediate? It makes sense that you would support a war against an attacking army that was presenting an immediate threat. From your earlier comment, it seems that waging a war of retaliation would be out of the question, but what about a war to prevent possible harm from happening in the future?

 

[Jake255]

I tried to address this issue under the title "Pacifism," but there were not very many people interested in a wide pacifism discussion. Since I am confronted by the topics of gun control, gun rights, and worries of possible firearm legislation in nearly every newscast I see, I thought I might try to limit the discussion to one very specific pacifistic topic, killing.

As a Christian, I do not believe it is ever acceptable for one person to kill another person. What are your thoughts?

Is it ever acceptable (moral, good, etc.) to take a person's life?

If you think/believe it can be acceptable, under what circumstances would it be permitted?

If you think/believe it cannot be acceptable, what are your reasons for your view?

No, as believers we should not take another person's life. The Bible says to love our enemies, not kill them.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

No, as believers we should not take another person's life. The Bible says to love our enemies, not kill them.

And about killing your loved ones? And I don't mean Cain killing Abel. Would you allow a loved one to suffer agonizing, excruciating terminal pain for God?

 

[Jake255]

And about killing your loved ones? And I don't mean Cain killing Abel. Would you allow a loved one to suffer agonizing, excruciating terminal pain for God?

It is not our place, as believers, to decide when a person's life is to end.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

It is not our place, as believers, to decide when a person's life is to end.

So you would allow your dog or cat to be euthanized to end its terminal suffering (we are talking TERMINAL) suffering, but not your mom or dad or brother or sister to be given a drug or drugs to end their suffering and ease their passing? Because I see death a lot in terminal people and it is rarely easy or pretty. We give what pain medicines we can, but rarely is that enough. If the person is in their right mind, terminal, and wants to die in their own way, how is a loving family member or friend able to withhold that from them?

 

[Max S Cherry]

It is absolutely not wrong to ensure that one makes it home, so one can feed one's family and meet one's life-obligations.

This is a response I would expect from a non-Christian, but I find it surprising from a Christian. Well it is not exactly surprising, but I cannot understand Christ's teachings to support this view. If ensuring the things you mention require killing someone, I do not agree that Christ supports ensuring them.

It is not wrong to stop felons from victimizing others, and is in fact the "Christian" thing to do (See OT for laws regarding if you see your neighbors livestock in trouble, see NT for Good Samaritan).

This is an interesting take of the Good Samaritan. If you intend that helping someone is the Christian thing to do, I agree with you fully. If you intend that it is right to kill a felon "to stop a felon from victimizing others," I believe you will have to look beyond the Good Samaritan for justification.

Being willing to sacrifice one's self for one's family is evidence of love, but a sacrifice has to have meaning to have value.

I agree completely, and being willing to sacrifice a loved one is surely a sacrifice with meaning. God did this very thing with His own Son. If a felon is killing your loved one and if you kill the felon to save your loved one, have you acted in a Christ-like manner?

Merely adding to the death toll as many pacifist Christians will advocate is not the way to earn that special martyr's robe in heaven.

Taking a action to earn a robe in heaven seems to be a poor justification for an action whether that action is killing or deciding not to kill.

Attempting to save others, attempting to stop the bad guy. . . . that is how to get the martyr's robe.

We have a different understanding of what Christ wants from us. I have not read anything in Christ's teachings that indicate I should "stop the bad guy" by killing him or "save others" by killing someone. Christ did not follow this path in His own life.

There is no glory in just being a victim, one might as well step in front of a bus. A meaningless death is meaningless.

I believe there is glory in serving God, and if one can serve God by stepping in front of a bus, that is the thing to do. I do not see how suicide relates to choosing to not kill someone to save your life, but we are free to disagree. Also, I do not believe that death is ever meaningless to Christians as it is the gateway to eternity.

 

[Max S Cherry]

How do you reconcile your view with God's work in the OT? There are times that His purpose borders on our modern definition of genocide. Killing is a difficult subject.

It is definitely a difficult subject, and I thank you for your response. For me, I do not try to reconcile my life with the happenings of the Old Testament. As I understand the Bible, Christ's birth, death, and resurrection ushered in the age of Grace. I believe that believers now are instructed to follow Christ and His teachings rather than the law of the Old Testament.

Self defense and to end their suffering a la Kevorkian.

Both are justifiable reasons for non-Christians. Thank you for responding.

 

[Max S Cherry]

No, as believers we should not take another person's life. The Bible says to love our enemies, not kill them.

Hey Jake, thank you for responding. It is good to know that I am not alone in my general understanding of killing. I agree with your view and your support for it.

 

[Max S Cherry]

So you would allow your dog or cat to be euthanized to end its terminal suffering (we are talking TERMINAL) suffering, but not your mom or dad or brother or sister to be given a drug or drugs to end their suffering and ease their passing? Because I see death a lot in terminal people and it is rarely easy or pretty. We give what pain medicines we can, but rarely is that enough. If the person is in their right mind, terminal, and wants to die in their own way, how is a loving family member or friend able to withhold that from them?

The situation you present is one of the hardest for me to hold my position on, and I can only say that I would have to pray for comfort for my loved one while praying for strength for myself. It would not be easy, and I will not dare to say what I would do in that situation. I hope that my faith would be strong enough to follow my convictions.

One of the iffy concerns I have in cases like this is over purpose. If the pain medication was given with the purpose of easing the pain rather than killing the person, could one avoid euthanasia? There have been times when I supported euthanasia outright as a person's right to die, but I can no longer hold that position. In that case, a person would be choosing to die and not just choosing to end pain. Yes, ending pain is the reason behind the decision, but death is the desired result. If administering an adequate amount of pain medication causes death, I am not certain that it is the same as euthanasia, but it might be.

 

[Jake255]

So you would allow your dog or cat to be euthanized to end its terminal suffering (we are talking TERMINAL) suffering, but not your mom or dad or brother or sister to be given a drug or drugs to end their suffering and ease their passing? Because I see death a lot in terminal people and it is rarely easy or pretty. We give what pain medicines we can, but rarely is that enough. If the person is in their right mind, terminal, and wants to die in their own way, how is a loving family member or friend able to withhold that from them?

Why would you make the claim I would euthanize a pet, when I made no such claim?

It is not our place to end someone's life, when we do, we are playing God.

 

[Jake255]

Hey Jake, thank you for responding. It is good to know that I am not alone in my general understanding of killing. I agree with your view and your support for it.

Peace to you, bro!

It's a hard stance to take, especially in America, but I am convicted it is the right one.

 

[Glas Ridire]

This is a response I would expect from a non-Christian, but I find it surprising from a Christian. Well it is not exactly surprising, but I cannot understand Christ's teachings to support this view. If ensuring the things you mention require killing someone, I do not agree that Christ supports ensuring them.

so, you think it is un-Christian to provide for one's family by not dying senselessly. . . okay. Can you cite a verse that suggests throwing one's (bodily) life away, for no good cause?

This is an interesting take of the Good Samaritan. If you intend that helping someone is the Christian thing to do, I agree with you fully. If you intend that it is right to kill a felon "to stop a felon from victimizing others," I believe you will have to look beyond the Good Samaritan for justification.

Well, it is a take on the Good Samaritan formed by asking the question "what would the moral obligation have been had the passers by arrived during the beating and robbing rather than after?" wouldn't the first two still be condemned for passing on the far side of the road and doing nothing? Additionally, I'd ask you what John the Baptist advised the two soldiers that asked what they should do after repenting? Do you recall? Did Jesus ever contradict this teaching? In another thread I told the following anecdote:
So back to defensive gun uses. . . . the thing about a defensive gun use is, the trigger doesn't have to get pulled to count. I know when that little waitress was getting slapped around and the thugs were getting ready to gang rape her, they chose to leave rather than get shot. I was there. I was the one who said "NOT in MY neighborhood _____ _________ (insert expletive)" and had the gun in my hand. Did I need a gun? Well, I may be 6'3" and built like an MMA fighter & versed in a bunch of unarmed fighting styles . . . but against 5 thugs who might (yeah right, like none of them would at least have a knife) be armed. Seriously. I knew the response time for 911 was over twenty minutes because it wasn't a white neighborhood & I'd seen calls even for the drive-by shootings that took that long to get a response. That girl needed some help a bit quicker than I was going to get a response to the call. Okay? You still with me? Thing is, the thugs left and I went back inside, watched over the girl with a scoped rifle til she caught the bus she'd been waiting on. I doubt she reported the assault, she didn't speak English and worked at the taco joint down the block. Did a crime get stopped? Well, they were slapping her around and had her pants off her hips by the time I made it to the street. Did it get reported? I didn't report it. Did the probably illegal alien waitress? Thing is. . . stuff like that happens all the time.
Apart from my language, where did I sin?

I agree completely, and being willing to sacrifice a loved one is surely a sacrifice with meaning. God did this very thing with His own Son. If a felon is killing your loved one and if you kill the felon to save your loved one, have you acted in a Christ-like manner?

Yes. Look at how Jesus is described in Revelations.

Taking a action to earn a robe in heaven seems to be a poor justification for an action whether that action is killing or deciding not to kill.

I have never heard it used to justify killing, yet every Christian pacifist presumes that God wants them to be martyrs and they should take any opportunity to die that is presented in hopes of getting one of those fancy robes.

We have a different understanding of what Christ wants from us. I have not read anything in Christ's teachings that indicate I should "stop the bad guy" by killing him or "save others" by killing someone. Christ did not follow this path in His own life.

Christ's mission was a little specific (sarcastic, it was VERY specific) being like Christ is groovy, operating under the delusion that dying just to die honors Him is. . . whack.

I believe there is glory in serving God, and if one can serve God by stepping in front of a bus, that is the thing to do. I do not see how suicide relates to choosing to not kill someone to save your life, but we are free to disagree. Also, I do not believe that death is ever meaningless to Christians as it is the gateway to eternity.

Parable of the talents. Good reading. Looking for a way out (of life) instead of doing the appointed work is like the servant who hid his talent and was afraid. . . . how did that story end again? Hey, just cause I read parables and pay attention to the words of Jesus, doesn't mean I am right. . . someone with a completely scripturally unfounded view could be right instead.