Is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?

[NeedyFollower]

In Abraham's and before a man HAD to be born again.....

All mankind from Adam to the last is saved by GRACE through FAITH.

Torah has nothing to do with that truth.

Torah is about OBEDIENCE. It is the road map on HOW we are to love G-d with all our hearts, minds and soul. It is HOW we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Yeshua said that upon THOSE TWO the entire Torah AND PROPHETS are founded.

scripture from GENESIS TO REVELATION is about those 2 things.

Everone keeps saying "new covenant" but how many covenants were their in the Tanakh? (OT)

5 is the answer. The COVENANT is a progressive revelation.... the covenant in the gospels are the coming to pass of the Jeremiah 31 prophecy being brought into reality.

Hi BukiRob ..I really appreciate Jeremiah and have been blessed by also reading many of the minor prophets . What I think is interesting is potentially seeing history repeating itself. Look in Jeremiah 23:14 and further. It is my understanding that those called to be saints are part of the priesthood and yet legally sanctioned adultery and bigamy ( called divorce and remarriage ) is commonplace in the church. Covetousness is called being a good steward and good citizen ( provided we give 10% , it is ok to use the other 90% for our own kingdom . ) Covetousness was one of the snares of the priesthood with whom Jesus was in contention.

 

[SolomonVII]

So my question is , since we may all be guilty of falling short of the glory of God , at which church should our troops first line up and start killing the enemies of God ?

Holy War in the name of any religion is an archaic relic from ages where there were no better options.
Wars are aligned behind nations and national interest and international coalitions in our age, and not churches. We do not kill in the name of Jesus.
Further, it is not a moral requirement that we be perfect in order to wage battle against monsters. A lessening of evil in the world is the goal of war. It would be great if we could muster together an army as sinless as Jesus, but he did not bother to wait for our perfection before he redeemed us, so that is not the standard we have to hold ourselves and each other to either.

 

[Philip_B]

Holy War

In the temporal sense Holy War is of course an odd phrase built of two mutually exclusive terms.

What we have lost the stomach for the the discussion of a Just War. When Germany invaded Poland it was understood that this was a Just War. When Japan bombed the US Fleet at Perl Harbour it was understood that this was a Just War. There have been a series of conflicts that the West has engaged in since that time where the things that comprise the arguments for a Just War were either not present, not considered, or dismissed. One of the problems here is course is that News Media have adopted an approach where the old idea of being factually objective and morally responsible has been replaced with a dictum of being entirely opinionated and subjective whilst remaining morally neutral or wishy washy. The War in Vietnam is generally argued to have been lost on the street of New York and Sydney because we had no heart for a War we did not consider just.

 

[ldibart]

I still say we are possibly putting new wine in old wine skins or put another way, we take from the old covenant what we wish and apply it to what is done today although I know of no military campaign in modern times done TRULY in the name AND SPIRIT of Christ Jesus for the purpose of reconciliation. We must not confuse the agenda of nations and countries. If we are going to use arms and war to effect the Kingdom of God, then we should start right here in America . " While we were yet enemies of God, Christ died for the ungodly. " How did God deal with our enmity" By dying for us ...by the good news of reconciliation . By His own blood. Be ye reconciled to God. Ours is the ministry of reconciliation.

Is ISIS an enemy of the gospel ? Yes , they know not what they do. How about Christian parents who have sacrificed the eternal well being of their own children by teaching them to love the world ? Yes , they know not what they do. How about Christians forsaking prayer and service in favor of the amusements of this world ? Yes , as Paul said " They are enemies of the cross of Christ , whose God is their belly , who glory in their shame , who mind earthly things. " So my question is , since we may all be guilty of falling short of the glory of God , at which church should our troops first line up and start killing the enemies of God ?

I actually only see one group in this that is attacking and murdering people and Christians ..that group is of course ISIS and its not about judging the intent of people as God can only judge which ones are the enemies and which are not .

YOU may see for instance a few people on a phone .. what if they are reading scripture on those phones you truly do not know I read scriptures on my phone same with my wife .So I would say unless there is complete information intent is not ours to judge .

We do know that to be attacked and killed and our families killed even those we do not know being attacked to be killed all are VICTIMS of a crime we can know this is not right ..to blur moral lines with GOD is not what he would want ..

those murdering are doing wrong how can we allow for murders and be Christians we are not under some king or Cesar ?



those allowing it watching it happen and even watching the unsaved put to death ..are doing wrong.

those doing it is to be stopped do you feel you would sit passively by while others are being murdered ..and perhaps many others that have not got the chance to accept Christ?

so if I have a choice between murderers that are fully brainwashed by another religion worshiping another God or one that is being a victim of a crime I will choose to defend the victim ..not sit down passively and watch it unfold as I do believe their death is on the hands of those that CHOOSE to watch and do nothing.

I also am firmly convinced that GOD will say something when those that allowed evil to murder another could have prevented it and saved a soul

The apostles speak of the old testament those are examples for us to use

Here we are told to use the old testament viewing it as examples their are many scriptures of the OT the apostles used even though under the new covenant It is not mixing old skins and new wine ..

1st Cor 10:6-11
6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”a8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.9We should not test Christ,b as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

 

[CrystalDragon]

As Christians is it ok to kill our enemies ? Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, what if we are called to war or someone is trying to hurt our families?

I wouldn't say so, but then again, people killed their enemies in the name of God in the Old Testament and God reportedly commanded it...

 

[PastorFreud]

The argument that you are not addressing about Islam is that jihadism is not the fringe. Wahabbism is the state religion of Saudi Arabia. That is not a fringe. Egypt, the most populous Muslim country in the ME, elects government that are Muslim Brother and Salafi. This is not the fringe. ISIS is what rises to power and takes over territory when the iron fist of Arabic authoritarianism is weakened. This is not the fringe. Iran is a theocracy that supports terrorism and Shia jihadism. This is not the fringe. Hamas, Hizbollah, and any number of groups that take over territory and by force or by election prove themselves not to be the fringe.
This is not the fringe that is the issue.
This is mainstream.

We can all agree with people like Daniel Pipes that the solution to radical Islam is moderate Islam, and support moderate forces in Islam coming to the fore of that religion. Nevertheless, Mohammed is not Jesus. His was the way of the Caesars and Alexander the Great and rule by military junta.
At its core Islam is a very different religion than a Christian's personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Therefore likening ourselves to people who put cows onto trial in the name of moral equivalence is a meaningless charade.

I open to arguments like the one you are making, but I would like to see more of the facts and data supporting them. If what you say is correct, then we paved the way for some of the fringe groups by removing Saddam Hussein from power. If what you say is correct, and I'm open to that evidence, then why are we buddies with Saudi Arabia and Egypt? BTW, I wasn't trying to make an argument of moral equivalence, but I can see how I came off that way. I was tying to make an argument that the use of lethal power might not be the best way to address the problem to bring about true change. Furthermore, the use of lethal power might be an even worse choice for Christians who claim to have a personal relationship with the all powerful God of the Universe. It doesn't sound any better than the crusades for us to kill others in the name of our God. Cows notwithstanding.

 

[SolomonVII]

I open to arguments like the one you are making, but I would like to see more of the facts and data supporting them. If what you say is correct, then we paved the way for some of the fringe groups by removing Saddam Hussein from power. If what you say is correct, and I'm open to that evidence, then why are we buddies with Saudi Arabia and Egypt? BTW, I wasn't trying to make an argument of moral equivalence, but I can see how I came off that way. I was tying to make an argument that the use of lethal power might not be the best way to address the problem to bring about true change. Furthermore, the use of lethal power might be an even worse choice for Christians who claim to have a personal relationship with the all powerful God of the Universe. It doesn't sound any better than the crusades for us to kill others in the name of our God. Cows notwithstanding.

Hamas runs the Gaza Stip. It is common knowledge.
It is a correct fact. Look it up.
In 1979, the ayatollahs took over Iran. It is a theocracy. That is another correct fact. Look it up, if you don't believe me.
After the Arab Spring, elections were held in Egypt. The parties that came out on top were The Egyptian brotherhood and Salafi organizatons. That is a correct fact. Look it up.
In 1979 in Saudi Arabia, there was a mosque attack that led to religious police gaining control of the morality of the country. The country is ruled by theocrats with a 7th century moral code. This is a correct fact. It is a known fact. It is an easily documented fact.
Look it up.
Daniel Pipes, a Harvard educated researcher into Middle Easter affairs, who like you believes that the solution to radical Islam is moderate Islam, has been warned by the Turkish ambassador not to go to Turkey or to even fly Turkish airlines. His crticism of the Islamization of the Turkish government will get him arrested there.
Turkey is not traditionally an Islamist government. Notice how the Islamic world is changing.
That fact can be checked at DanielPipes.org. Again look it up if you need to confirm.
The Iraq war has been debated to death. Your argument that America is a murderer who does bad things so Islamists become murderers who do bad things is much like the argument that Donald Trump makes about his defense of Putin.
Yeah. It smells like a moral equivalence argument to me. Maybe you agree with Trump on this one though? Anyway, Iraq has been debated to death, and if failure in Iraq did not lead to more extremists support for the MB in Egypt and Islamist forces in Libya in the Arab spring by Obama and the European coalition of like-minded liberals most certainly did. Apparently extremist Islam is a very easy sell in the House of Islam. Read the Hadiths and the Koran to find out why.

As I have already come out against killing in the name of God in this thread, in my first post, and at least once after that, you're argument is not with me on that. It is with the Allahu Akbar crowd, who in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, in the Levant, in Egypt, in Syria, and now even in Turkey, are in power.

Now the evidence you provide to the contrary is that your Muslim friends are not extremist. I of course cannot look that up, but I anecdotally concur that my Muslim friends are not extremist either. That says more about you and me and the people with common interests in our friends groups that it does about what is fringe in Islam today.
As for the cows, since virtually no Christian today is of a medeival mindset, and there is exactly zero percent chance of a Christian theocracy putting cows on trial in North America, South America, or Europe today, I think we can put that issue to rest. At best, it quaintly supports your argument that killing in the name of God is not a good thing, but at worse it gives off the stench of a moral equivalence argument when done in a discussion of Islam, which is of course the only times that that kind of argument is brought up. Let those history books gather dust, because they in now way speak to who we are now.

 

[PastorFreud]

Hamas runs the Gaza Stip. It is common knowledge.
It is a correct fact. Look it up.
In 1979, the ayatollahs took over Iran. It is a theocracy. That is another correct fact. Look it up, if you don't believe me.
After the Arab Spring, elections were held in Egypt. The parties that came out on top were The Egyptian brotherhood and Salafi organizatons. That is a correct fact. Look it up.
In 1979 in Saudi Arabia, there was a mosque attack that led to religious police gaining control of the morality of the country. The country is ruled by theocrats with a 7th century moral code. This is a correct fact. It is a known fact. It is an easily documented fact.
Look it up.
Daniel Pipes, a Harvard educated researcher into Middle Easter affairs, who like you believes that the solution to radical Islam is moderate Islam, has been warned by the Turkish ambassador not to go to Turkey or to even fly Turkish airlines. His crticism of the Islamization of the Turkish government will get him arrested there.
Turkey is not traditionally an Islamist government. Notice how the Islamic world is changing.
That fact can be checked at DanielPipes.org. Again look it up if you need to confirm.
The Iraq war has been debated to death. Your argument that America is a murderer who does bad things so Islamists become murderers who do bad things is much like the argument that Donald Trump makes about his defense of Putin.
Yeah. It smells like a moral equivalence argument to me. Maybe you agree with Trump on this one though? Anyway, Iraq has been debated to death, and if failure in Iraq did not lead to more extremists support for the MB in Egypt and Islamist forces in Libya in the Arab spring by Obama and the European coalition of like-minded liberals most certainly did. Apparently extremist Islam is a very easy sell in the House of Islam. Read the Hadiths and the Koran to find out why.

As I have already come out against killing in the name of God in this thread, in my first post, and at least once after that, you're argument is not with me on that. It is with the Allahu Akbar crowd, who in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, in the Levant, in Egypt, in Syria, and now even in Turkey, are in power.

Now the evidence you provide to the contrary is that your Muslim friends are not extremist. I of course cannot look that up, but I anecdotally concur that my Muslim friends are not extremist either. That says more about you and me and the people with common interests in our friends groups that it does about what is fringe in Islam today.
As for the cows, since virtually no Christian today is of a medeival mindset, and there is exactly zero percent chance of a Christian theocracy putting cows on trial in North America, South America, or Europe today, I think we can put that issue to rest. At best, it quaintly supports your argument that killing in the name of God is not a good thing, but at worse it gives off the stench of a moral equivalence argument when done in a discussion of Islam, which is of course the only times that that kind of argument is brought up. Let those history books gather dust, because they in now way speak to who we are now.

I didn't mean to insult you by saying that I needed more facts. I need more facts because I am ignorant on these topics. I do know the general facts you have shared, but I don't know much about what is happening internationally. I had a friend who worked in the UAE, and he said that it was pretty strict 20 years ago and he had to be very careful when talking about his faith to not be seen as proselytizing. And now things are not as strict, but maybe he is just with a safer crowd? Anyway, I am genuinely ignorant about the overall trends and patterns internationally. Meanwhile, I know that the fringe Islam elements in America are not mainstream, just as other mass murderers in America of the home grown variety are not mainstream. I'm not trying to make any kind of equivalence argument, just saying that from my uneducated (in this area) perspective I don't see the distinctions that others in the thread are making. Extremists concern me regardless of their idealogies. I'm hearing that Islamic extremism is different in some way. My argument that Christians and Jews had extremist world domination periods wasn't saying "neener neener they're all the same." It was saying I don't get how Islamic extremism is special because of it being Islamic. And I really am not following the cow thing at all. Looks like I need to dust off the history books if I want to understand old references.

I will do more research because I genuinely want to understand what is happening both here in America and abroad. I know my relative in England says that issues there are more escalated than here, but his points were about assimilation and so forth. Not assimilating is very different from militancy. So sorry to have upset you, but you have helped me realize where to focus my efforts. Unlike other posters in the thread that were saying we needed to weapon up. I do hope that we can find nonviolent ways to address Islamism, but my hope is diminished. Recently two reformers here in America were classified as "Islamaphobes" by the SPLC. I find conservatives proposing violent solutions and liberals proposing there is no problem at all. I really would like to find a more reasonable basis based on larger sets of data.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As Christians is it ok to kill our enemies ? Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, what if we are called to war or someone is trying to hurt our families?

Short answer? No.
Longer answer? Definitely no.

Killing in the name of Christ is arguably one of the most blasphemous things that one could ever do.

One could make an argument that there are times when Christian participation in limited violence is necessitated by circumstance and for the purpose of curbing greater violence; that is essentially what the classic Just War Theory is about.

An example of that in a modern context would be Pastor Bonhoeffer's decision to participate in the Abwehr's plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler, Bonhoeffer who had been a staunch advocate of Christian non-violence and a member of Germany's underground Confessing Church which opposed the Nazis and the Nazi-dominated state approved Reichskirche ultimately came to believe that the death of Hitler was a necessary evil (all killing is evil, even justified killing) made necessary by the sheer volume of death plaguing Europe and the whole world due to the war and the ongoing horrors of the Holocaust.

Can violence be justified? Arguably, yes. But we must be vigilent.

Violence, and especially killing, should never be taken lightly, or treated casually, or thought of as good. The destruction of God's creation is never good.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[NeedyFollower]

I actually only see one group in this that is attacking and murdering people and Christians ..that group is of course ISIS and its not about judging the intent of people as God can only judge which ones are the enemies and which are not .

YOU may see for instance a few people on a phone .. what if they are reading scripture on those phones you truly do not know I read scriptures on my phone same with my wife .So I would say unless there is complete information intent is not ours to judge .

We do know that to be attacked and killed and our families killed even those we do not know being attacked to be killed all are VICTIMS of a crime we can know this is not right ..to blur moral lines with GOD is not what he would want ..

those murdering are doing wrong how can we allow for murders and be Christians we are not under some king or Cesar ?



those allowing it watching it happen and even watching the unsaved put to death ..are doing wrong.

those doing it is to be stopped do you feel you would sit passively by while others are being murdered ..and perhaps many others that have not got the chance to accept Christ?

so if I have a choice between murderers that are fully brainwashed by another religion worshiping another God or one that is being a victim of a crime I will choose to defend the victim ..not sit down passively and watch it unfold as I do believe their death is on the hands of those that CHOOSE to watch and do nothing.

I also am firmly convinced that GOD will say something when those that allowed evil to murder another could have prevented it and saved a soul

The apostles speak of the old testament those are examples for us to use

Here we are told to use the old testament viewing it as examples their are many scriptures of the OT the apostles used even though under the new covenant It is not mixing old skins and new wine ..

1st Cor 10:6-11
6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”a8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.9We should not test Christ,b as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

I actually only see one group in this that is attacking and murdering people and Christians ..that group is of course ISIS and its not about judging the intent of people as God can only judge which ones are the enemies and which are not .

Yes , I agree. ISIS unlike us , have not received the gospel of peace. The gospel of reconciliation. They still think this is their home and are busy laying up treasures here on earth in disobedience and rebellion to Christ Jesus our Lord. They suppose they know God but their actions deny Him. Jesus said blessed are the meek ( or undemanding ) and learn of me , I am lowly in heart . And ISIS is proud and arrogant. Probably the mightiest military power on earth. And look what ISIS has done with all of their wealth and natural resources that they stole from the native inhabitants of the land they conquered in the name of God. Oh wait, that wasn't ISIS ..It was another religious people deceived. My bad.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Holy War in the name of any religion is an archaic relic from ages where there were no better options.
Wars are aligned behind nations and national interest and international coalitions in our age, and not churches. We do not kill in the name of Jesus.
Further, it is not a moral requirement that we be perfect in order to wage battle against monsters. A lessening of evil in the world is the goal of war. It would be great if we could muster together an army as sinless as Jesus, but he did not bother to wait for our perfection before he redeemed us, so that is not the standard we have to hold ourselves and each other to either.

Holy War in the name of any religion is an archaic relic from ages where there were no better options.
Wars are aligned behind nations and national interest and international coalitions in our age, and not churches. We do not kill in the name of Jesus.
Further, it is not a moral requirement that we be perfect in order to wage battle against monsters. A lessening of evil in the world is the goal of war. It would be great if we could muster together an army as sinless as Jesus, but he did not bother to wait for our perfection before he redeemed us, so that is not the standard we have to hold ourselves and each other to either.

Further, it is not a moral requirement that we be perfect in order to wage battle against monsters. A lessening of evil in the world is the goal of war.

If a lessening of evil in the world is the goal of war , then when do we take up arms against the love of money which is the root of all kinds of evil for while some coveted after , they have erred from the faith . If covetousness is the sin of idolatry ( according to scripture) and wherein it is written "do not let covetousness be once named among you as becometh saints ( No idolater has any inheritence in the Kingdom of Heaven ) how has it come to be called "being a good steward" . I see ISIS as terrorist but there may be those fighting against them which are covetous. It would be the same as a murderer having an argument with an adulterer outside of Noah's Ark as to who is standing closest to the closed door when the rains started.

 

[SolomonVII]

If a lessening of evil in the world is the goal of war , then when do we take up arms against the love of money which is the root of all kinds of evil for while some coveted after , they have erred from the faith . If covetousness is the sin of idolatry ( according to scripture) and wherein it is written "do not let covetousness be once named among you as becometh saints ( No idolater has any inheritence in the Kingdom of Heaven ) how has it come to be called "being a good steward" . I see ISIS as terrorist but there may be those fighting against them which are covetous. It would be the same as a murderer having an argument with an adulterer outside of Noah's Ark as to who is standing closest to the closed door when the rains started.

Are you suggesting we kill the capitalists?
If so, it has already been done.
The result is not a lessening of evil, suffice it to say.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Are you suggesting we kill the capitalists?
If so, it has already been done.
The result is not a lessening of evil, suffice it to say.

Well brother, it is ironic ( or not ) that Jesus said "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. " And yet many people in this country have an abundance of the thing they despise and have voted into office someone very successful at chasing the thing he despises. He has even appointed others who also despise that which he despises. And this was done by and large by those who profess to follow the one which said " He that is ashamed of me and my WORDS, him will I be ashamed of. I do not think any Christian in this country has an issue with Jesus ...just His words. ( Let's forget His words and go kick some communist , muslim, Homo , fill in the blank butt " ..do you see the tenancy for this ? I think atheism is a more honest form of denying God.

 

[SolomonVII]

Well brother, it is ironic ( or not ) that Jesus said "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. " And yet many people in this country have an abundance of the thing they despise and have voted into office someone very successful at chasing the thing he despises. He has even appointed others who also despise that which he despises. And this was done by and large by those who profess to follow the one which said " He that is ashamed of me and my WORDS, him will I be ashamed of. I do not think any Christian in this country has an issue with Jesus ...just His words. ( Let's forget His words and go kick some communist , muslim, Homo , fill in the blank butt " ..do you see the tenancy for this ? I think atheism is a more honest form of denying God.

So, were you suggesting that we kill capitalist then?

 

[ldibart]

Yes , I agree. ISIS unlike us , have not received the gospel of peace. The gospel of reconciliation. They still think this is their home and are busy laying up treasures here on earth in disobedience and rebellion to Christ Jesus our Lord. They suppose they know God but their actions deny Him. Jesus said blessed are the meek ( or undemanding ) and learn of me , I am lowly in heart . And ISIS is proud and arrogant. Probably the mightiest military power on earth. And look what ISIS has done with all of their wealth and natural resources that they stole from the native inhabitants of the land they conquered in the name of God. Oh wait, that wasn't ISIS ..It was another religious people deceived. My bad.[/

OH i see, so we should just allow Isis and other radicals to continue hunting christian families and killing them or any families for that matter

..because you see the USA as evil hmm and here I thought God set up governments AND one task of a government is to execute judgment

.. MANY countries not just this one had it taken by war or others ..so what you are saying then is we should all give back all countries taken over from the entire world to its rightful owners ..hmm even IF god said to take that country right? apparently he did say so since we are here and have taken this country..

I suppose God no longer sets up and takes down governments?

people like you think that God allows for and we should take the death violence and ALL manner of evil because its "God ordained" ..yet at the same time Your types will point to how we got this country from native Americans "unjustly" as if God now had NOTHING to do with it!

NOW all of a sudden, what ,God did not bring evil on a nation allowing for the USA to exist ? OR is it that now you can cry fowl because it "fits" your poor narrative attempt? .. which is it dude Does God bring on that evil OR did he not?

these rampaging radicals are working against what the present Mulim governments say they ..in other words they are going against their own governments and are being judged NOW ..

IF they are NOT going against governments and there is some hidden pact then we are at WAR and still need to take care of this.

In the meantime, Myself I see people being killed, I will help defend those people

IF its truly some god ordained deal that one should die saved or unsaved my trying to help someone live is honorable to lay down ones life if needed in defense of people that could very well NOT be saved is honorable and godly AND if its gods will then one will fail anyhow ..IF it is not GOD ordained then I will succeed in saving a life that now has a chance to accept Christ ....

Either way I did not live based on twisted scriptures that total up to say."do not protect or try to help anyone from harm, I mean how far does this go ..like if they dangling off a cliff you can help save them as God did not ordain them to die like that and if someone is dangling off a cliff that means God wants them to die .. YOU know,thats a great motto you should make that a bumper sticker!.."Do not help anyone from harm"

if you are being beatdown in the street and about to be killed and someone saves you .. are you suppose to be dead or did god protect you?

lol

 

[NeedyFollower]

So, were you suggesting that we kill capitalist then?

Well metaphorically yes ..the same way you and I were "crucified" with Christ as our brother Paul says. I would encourage a capitalist to prepare to meet God and be rich towards God. In a physical sense I don't personally have the liberty to kill anyone since I am worthy of death and hell having been an enemy of God but as the scriptures say , when when we were yet enemies of God, Christ died for the ungodly. God through Christ reconciled me to Him , taking away the enmity through the cross. The root cause of evil is a lack of God and that can only be remedied by Christ for that is what God ordained.

If a democracy /republic combined with capitalism can bring about the Kingdom of God then has God's most precious gift died in vain. But for almost two thousand years , we have aligned politics, government and a "form of Christianity" but denied God's WORD. Being a catholic , you know that in the very early church, one would have been excommunicated for putting their money out to interest when there were the hungry to feed and it would not have been considered "storing treasures in heaven".It also would have indicated to the elders of the church in your heart that you had come to believe that the Lord is delaying His coming ( Much like the man who tore down his barns and built bigger to whom God has said , Thou fool , this night your soul will be required of you.

Just because we have always done something does not make it right any more than a lie will not become the truth in 6 days or 6 million years. Nor does an error become the Way if one person or 6 billion believe it. Jesus said, Do not resist evil but overcome evil with good. Love your enemies and pray for those who spitefully use you. Slowly and imperceptibly , we have turned people into merchandise. Do you really believe that Sealy Posterpedic cares if you get a good night sleep ? Do you suppose that any of the advertisers , makers of movies , car manufacturers, etc. hope beyond all hope that we remain humble , lowly and meek ..that we spend our time in prayer , service to others , seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness ? That we are busy demonstrating God's great love towards us ? That like Christ , we are saying to the world , Be Ye reconciled to God. No , that is not their agenda, nor is it the governments nor can it be anymore than an apple can be a boomerang. It is the body of believers job ..not theirs . Christ said that he who is not for me is against me. Do we deny Christ when we deny His words ? he said that He is the Way , the Truth and the Light . Do we deny Christ when we deny the truth ? I wonder if we are not following a Christ we ourselves have invented.

 

[SolomonVII]

Well metaphorically yes

I wasn't asking in the metaphoric sense.
This thread has so far been about real violence.

 

[marawuti]

What about in a situation like this? Would it be wrong if those parents disobeyed?
Disabled baby's life support machine turned off against the wishes of his parents

Let us be clear what I'm responding to. You're asking if it would be wrong for the parents to somehow act in disobedient to the court order - right?

As the court order was to the hospital authorities giving them the authority to remove the child from life support, I don't see how the parents could do anything about it. They might be able to abscond with the baby to another facility. That would be OK = "not sinful" from my understanding. Violating the hospital's conservatorship, if it indeed had such, would be OK by me from a gut sense.
We had roughly that situation here in the US but not an infant.

Did we get to where you wanted to go?

 

[NeedyFollower]

I wasn't asking in the metaphoric sense.
This thread has so far been about real violence.

Hi Brother ...Of course we can not kill anyone in love nor in the name of Jesus. ( Whatever you do in word or deed , do all in the name of Jesus.) Nor are we able to be "harmless as doves and wise as serpents" by killing capitalist. I was using hyperbole when I made ( maybe the wrongly sarcastic remark ) that if we are going to kill the enemies of God , then we should get the army to open fire on many churches. I was hoping to make the point that there is none righteous ..just the self righteous and sinners saved by grace through God's mercy. As my and your brother Paul said , when we were still enemies of God , Christ died for the ungodly. There is eternal violence being done to people's souls .

 

[Jeepneytravel]

What if you are drafted into an army. Do you kill an enemy?

Me personally, I don't want to kill unless I have no choice. If my there were armed men in my house who wanted to rape/kill us... I'd kill them if I could. As the bible says about laying down your life for your brother. Now... if I were drafted into the army... I would refuse to kill since I did not volunteer. I may be court marshelled but I'm ok with that.[/QUOTE/



Cassius Clay later Muhammed Ali, the boxer had it right..he refused the draft in the 60's to go and fight in Viet Nam...he was right on...this was nothing but an illegal invasion by the USA of a tiny country which was immoral and illegal....most wars and problems on the planet are a result of the globalists/military industrial complex/banks to make a lot of money...nothing righteous about these wars at all...