• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is it better to raise children without religion?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sunflower39

Anglican
Aug 23, 2023
255
205
UK
✟42,357.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Same here. C of E school (so as near to unreligious as I think you can get here). My son (8) has been taught about various religions (Christianity first) and at 6 he came home and told me he believed in God. I asked him which one? He was very confused.

He came home a few months ago saying he did not believe in any god. I asked how so? And he said they were fairy tales for grown ups. Funnily enough he still believe in Father Christmas.

My friend’s son goes to a local Catholic school and is 9. He’s only been taught about God and firmly believes in God.
I was going to send my little boy to a C of E school but he was desperate to go to the same school as his friends from his pre-school (a mainstream one not connected to the church) so I sent him there instead. He has learned about other religions but Christianity seems to be the main focus. I’ve heard some parents moan about it but I think it’s nice really. Well, I guess they would if they’re not Christians themselves. The school have a proper, traditional nativity play in a church around Christmas time and everything which many schools seem to have cancelled. I think that by eradicating everything that is Christian in schools is also eradicating our culture.

I wonder where your son heard about God being fairy stories for grown ups from. It sounds like something an adult would say, doesn’t it?

I’ve heard that the Catholic schools are really good. The nearest secondary school to me is a Catholic one and it’s rated one of the best in the country. We’re not Catholic but when the time comes, I might try sending my son there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astrid
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,078
16,605
55
USA
✟418,400.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I’m not sure how it is in the US. I am based in the UK and my son goes to a mainstream non-religious school and they teach him about the important Christian events like Easter and what Christmas is really about. They also sing songs about God/Jesus sometimes. Learning about it in school also prompts him to ask questions. He already knew the story behind Easter before I even told him about it as he learned it in school.

That sounds awfully religious for a non-religious school. The closest we ever came to religion in school was a few "religious" Chrismas songs in the annual concert. Certainly no songs about God/Jesus in class or learning the story of the crucifiction of Jesus, though we did make easter bunny crafts.
 
Upvote 0

Niels

Woodshedding
Mar 6, 2005
17,372
4,705
North America
✟434,949.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
This article says studies show it is.
According to multiple reports, research has shown that a secular upbringing may be healthier for children. According to a 2010 Duke University study, kids raised this way display less susceptibility to racism and peer pressure, and are “less vengeful, less nationalistic, less militaristic, less authoritarian, and more tolerant, on average, than religious adults.” But the list of benefits doesn’t stop there.
I'm suspicious of the study. While I think that the religious right might be promoting vengeance, nationalism, militarism, and authoritarianism, and while I think that all those character traits are negative, I think that a kinder, gentler, more progressive religious faith provides a good ethical framework for adulthood and beyond.
What do you think?

I would be surprised if progressive religious faith necessarily provides a better ethical framework than a traditional religious faith. Progressives can be every bit as authoritarian and intolerant as traditionalists, for instance. Also, considering how topsy-turvy the world is right now, I'd only use those terms loosely. Instead, a clear focus on ethical behavior and kindness is probably more important in fostering wholesome values in the next generation.

You tell them 'This is what I believe and this is why I believe it'. That's about it.
Pretty much, although I'd add that it's important to live one's faith so as not to be hypocritical.

Church activities were positive for me, and what I learned was mostly consistent with the local culture and what was taught at (public) school. While I don't think it's necessarily good to be heavy-handed with children, I don't think it's right to exclude their participation to just figure things out on their own. When they're old enough, they will need to decide what they believe anyway. May as well do what we can to raise them well in the meantime.

Such associative studies are a junk science. The "good upbringing" depends on so many factors that it has no point to even try to reduce it to "religion vs non-religion".

Also, the definitions of "healthier, less vengeful" etc are so vague and subjective, that they bear no useful meanings.
Agreed. Other factors probably play a greater role than whether parents are secular or religious, and the definitions of what constitutes healthy, less vengeful, etc. are important yet somewhat nebulous.

My religious upbringing was among professionals in a nice suburban town where the children had consistently high standardized test scores, crime was low, etc. Most families were some flavor of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist. I was fortunate to experience this firsthand as I'm well aware that it isn't the norm everywhere. Although I only knew a few Atheists, I would be surprised if their upbringings were collectively more or less healthy than those with a traditionally religious background in terms of what's mentioned here.

Christianity is focused on personal values, one's relationship with God, and functioning within a community. Last I checked, healthy and unhealthy behaviors are endemic to humanity in general. Something that's shared among believers and non-believers alike. While I think Christian values are advantageous, I also believe that we are made in God's image regardless of religious faith and are capable of moral and ethical people without religious affiliation, if a bit more difficult to achieve outside of a Christian context.

One example, based on what I've observed in the peoples' lives around me, pertains to recovery from addictions, turning from previously unhealthy lifestyles in favor of more traditional religious values in terms of temperance, relying on on God and the structure of religious morality. Rather than having to make up their own moral and ethical frameworks. Although similar conclusions may be reached either way, there are fewer steps involved when espousing an already existing religious faith.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bradskii
Upvote 0

o_mlly

“Behold, I make all things new.”
May 20, 2021
3,141
575
Private
✟126,307.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Define left in the absence of other directions.
To attempt to define the particular without reference to the general or similes of the particular with distinctions is just nonsense.

You are aware that one of the big rules on this a Christian site is NOT to affirm LGBTQ+? The Bible clearly says that gay men should be put to death for acting gay consensually. I could not in good conscience agree.
No, I was not aware.

However, rest easy. Christianity believes in the dignity of all human beings as we are made in the image of God. We also believe we are all sinners in need of Christ's grace to gain salvation.
And you could say the same about gay marriage. And abortion. And sex outside of marriage. But if you keep taking out what are generally accepted as being Christian positions on morality so you don't have to worry about them, then you end up with something approaching a secular position.
Good. So, a secular education is one devoid of all the values and meaning of a Christian education except the minimal values necessary to keep society from imploding. That might help to explain the increase of mass murders in secular schools since prayer was removed in ~1962.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,848
9,074
52
✟387,977.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
The school have a proper, traditional nativity play in a church around Christmas time and everything which many schools seem to have cancelled. I think that by eradicating everything that is Christian in schools is also eradicating our culture.
Our school has a Nativity for years one and two but after that it’s more secular. My son must have picked it up either from being told anything that isn’t real is a fairy tale or from one of his peers.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,848
9,074
52
✟387,977.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
To attempt to define the particular without reference to the general or similes of the particular with distinctions is just nonsense.


No, I was not aware.

However, rest easy. Christianity believes in the dignity of all human beings as we are made in the image of God. We also believe we are all sinners in need of Christ's grace to gain salvation.

Good. So, a secular education is one devoid of all the values and meaning of a Christian education except the minimal values necessary to keep society from imploding. That might help to explain the increase of mass murders in secular schools since prayer was removed in ~1962.
I had to pray in school up until I left primary school in 1985.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,311
15,974
72
Bondi
✟377,168.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Good. So, a secular education is one devoid of all the values and meaning of a Christian education except the minimal values necessary to keep society from imploding.
A lot of my values are indeed Christian values. The golden rule for example. But accepting it and trying one's best to follow it in life doesn't require a belief that one of the people who promoted it was divine. Why do you think a secular upbringing would exclude religious values? That's just...odd.

And as an aside, people's Christian beliefs don't seem to prevent them from calling gay people untrustworthy, unwholesome, mentally ill and discussing actual physical violence against them, as in a current thread. It seems the more secular minded members are doing the best to follow Jesus' teaching. Some of the Christians? Not so much.
 
Upvote 0

o_mlly

“Behold, I make all things new.”
May 20, 2021
3,141
575
Private
✟126,307.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
A lot of my values are indeed Christian values. The golden rule for example.
It would seem all of your values have their root in religion beliefs. The golden rule for example.
Why do you think a secular upbringing would exclude religious values? That's just...odd.
What's odd is that secularist would ever claim to originate any moral value. Hijack, yes, Discover, No.
It seems the more secular minded members are doing the best to follow Jesus' teaching. Some of the Christians? Not so much.
Obviously, if that is one's experience then one needs to develop real Christians as acquaintances. Some secularists are the most sarcastic, manipulative and demeaning posters in the forum, don't you think?
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,311
15,974
72
Bondi
✟377,168.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It would seem all of your values have their root in religion beliefs. The golden rule for example.
It's a religious belief. But Jesus was reminding us of it. He didn't formulate it. I don't need to post other sources. You'll know of them, I'm sure
What's odd is that secularist would ever claim to originate any moral value. Hijack, yes, Discover, No.
As in the golden rule? So if someone proclaimed it first, then anyone after that hijacked it? You really want to go with that?
Obviously, if that is one's experience then one needs to develop real Christians as acquaintances.
Careful. You're not allowed to question a fellow Christian's statement that they are indeed Christian. But you'd really think that to find genuine Christians one would join...a Christian forum. Where's the love and compassion? Why is it in threads about, for example, homosexuality that invariably the only people who exhibit those characteristics are those without belief. And so many of those who do profess a belief seem angry and hateful.

Check out the thread. Encourage those who are actually talking about violence to gay people to change their ways. Tell them about that quite ancient golden rule. You could even mention the version that Jesus taught. I think they need help. Go and help them.

Edit: Alas, too late. Seems that such rhetoric as found in the thread was deemed unacceptable. It's been thankfully closed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,052
3,696
40
Hong Kong
✟188,696.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Not having that worry is a positive thing. But I could also say you get a sense of increased appreciation of your own efforts and place in the world.

When I look at where I am in life I know it’s because of my intrinsic qualities (with a large side order of luck) that have got me here.
Same for the whole human kind.

Thinking of the many hundreds of thousands
of years of our ancrstors' struggle to rise above
the bestial and bevome what we are, I find it
so disrespectful, so sad that anyone now would
say those people ever even existed, " god" just
made us as we now are few k yrs ago. Complete with speech, a moral code etc.

People are plenty flawed enough, but we sgould get
for what we have done.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,052
3,696
40
Hong Kong
✟188,696.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
A lot of my values are indeed Christian values. The golden rule for example. But accepting it and trying one's best to follow it in life doesn't require a belief that one of the people who promoted it was divine. Why do you think a secular upbringing would exclude religious values? That's just...odd.

And as an aside, people's Christian beliefs don't seem to prevent them from calling gay people untrustworthy, unwholesome, mentally ill and discussing actual physical violence against them, as in a current thread. It seems the more secular minded members are doing the best to follow Jesus' teaching. Some of the Christians? Not so much.
The Christians dont get to hijack the golden rule
as if its their exclusive.

Its our culture, probably every culture on earth.

Christians thinking they introduced it here are
like columbus on the beach telling the indigenous
that he discovered America.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

o_mlly

“Behold, I make all things new.”
May 20, 2021
3,141
575
Private
✟126,307.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's a religious belief.
Yes, I know (Zarathustra). The question is what moral values originated with atheists?
He didn't formulate it.
Jesus affirms all that is good. As a minimalist proposition, the golden rule is good. Did you know that Jesus's teachings did not end with, "Let's do the least we can for each other."?
As in the golden rule? So if someone proclaimed it first, then anyone after that hijacked it?
Not "anyone"; just non-believing secularists, aka, atheists. It seems the only religious moral values atheists are willing to hijack are those that are self-promoting, ie., "keeps my gene pool going".
Careful. You're not allowed to question a fellow Christian's statement that they are indeed Christian.
? Your profile still reports, "Atheist". If you've been baptized, pls update your profile.
Why is it in threads about, for example, homosexuality that invariably the only people who exhibit those characteristics are those without belief.
I have no reason to think that the same percentage of the general population that have those tendencies does not apply equally to those who believe. I suspect that those who freely will to habitually act out on those characteristics often deny belief.
And so many of those who do profess a belief seem angry and hateful.
Kindly provide some evidence. Otherwise, I will write this one off as just a "macro" attempt at straw-manning an entire community.
The Christians dont get to hijack the golden rule as if its their exclusive.
? I don't think they ever did.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,848
9,074
52
✟387,977.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
It seems the only religious moral values atheists are willing to hijack are those that are self-promoting, ie., "keeps my gene pool going".
I don't think religious moral values were hijacked. Society and culture were around thousands of years before Christianity developed. It's more so that Christianity has a long and storied history of hoovering up cultural detritus to stamp it's logo on things that had already happened since forever.

Non-Christians are just as likely to lead rich, ethical lives with values that go far beyond 'muh genes!' as anyone else.
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,699
6,208
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,124,114.00
Faith
Atheist
I don't think religious moral values were hijacked. Society and culture were around thousands of years before Christianity developed. It's more so that Christianity has a long and storied history of hoovering up cultural detritus to stamp it's logo on things that had already happened since forever.

Non-Christians are just as likely to lead rich, ethical lives with values that go far beyond 'muh genes!' as anyone else.
Indeed. Morality was probably around before speech let alone religion. It existed before we knew why it existed ("muh genes").

A morality exists in any social species. Dolphins have morals, no speech, and, as far as we know, no gods. Same for chimps. Same for emperor penguins.
 
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,052
3,696
40
Hong Kong
✟188,696.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't think religious moral values were hijacked. Society and culture were around thousands of years before Christianity developed. It's more so that Christianity has a long and storied history of hoovering up cultural detritus to stamp it's logo on things that had already happened since forever.

Non-Christians are just as likely to lead rich, ethical lives with values that go far beyond 'muh genes!' as anyone else.
The only hijack is the christian claim of originating
such as the golden rule.
 
Upvote 0

o_mlly

“Behold, I make all things new.”
May 20, 2021
3,141
575
Private
✟126,307.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Society and culture were around thousands of years before Christianity developed.
The thread's title: "Is it better to raise children without religion?" Religion was also around thousands of years before Christianity.
Non-Christians are just as likely to lead rich, ethical lives with values that go far beyond 'muh genes!' as anyone else.
Of that I have no doubt. However, not so much with secularists.
Morality was probably around before speech let alone religion. It existed before we knew why it existed
Well, that's an interesting opinion. Got any evidence?
Dolphins have morals, no speech, and, as far as we know, no gods. Same for chimps. Same for emperor penguins.
Really? I guess none of those animals told you about their moral codes as that "no speech" attribute kinda precludes that evidence. The evolutionary selfish insight about survival applies to dolphins, chimps and penguins, no?

Cut to the chase. Give us 3-5 examples of confirmed atheists who willing gave up their productive lives for a stranger, you know, like eg., Maximillian Kolbe.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,311
15,974
72
Bondi
✟377,168.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I know (Zarathustra). The question is what moral values originated with atheists?
Rejecting a lot of the teachings of various religions. I can give you a list if you like.
? Your profile still reports, "Atheist". If you've been baptized, pls update your profile.
Your comment was 'one needs to develop real Christians as acquaintances.' Please let me know who is a 'real Christian.'
I have no reason to think that the same percentage of the general population that have those tendencies does not apply equally to those who believe.
That's most definitely not supported by the comments we find in this forum. And being a specifically Christian forum one would expect to find examples of what Christians think. Did you check out that thread?
Kindly provide some evidence.
So you didn't check out that thread...
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,311
15,974
72
Bondi
✟377,168.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Cut to the chase. Give us 3-5 examples of confirmed atheists who willing gave up their productive lives for a stranger, you know, like eg., Maximillian Kolbe.
I think a more interesting (and much longer) example might be one that lists all those that destroyed the productive lives of others in the name of religion. You'll have a book at home that you can use to start. Let me know if you need a hand.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.