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IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Not all Jews will accept Christ. The part that has not yet been fulfilled is Exodus 33:1  And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it: 
    We are waiting for the return of Christ when that land will become the Zion!

    Psalms 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

    Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

    Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

    Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

    but of his coming to Zion to the church of God in the latter day, at the time of the conversion of the Jews, as appears from the quotation, and application of it by the apostle, [Gill]

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins
    Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
     
  2. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    not so God promised to do both..When Jesus returns those left will believe and confess Jesus as both God and Savior. These are the same people referred to throughout scripture and if you assemble all the relevant scripture you see the chronology and the salvation of Israel at the time Christ sets up the kingdom.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Wait... are you implying that Hitler's Jewish victims DESERVED what He did to them?
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Impossible.

    Just read Leviticus and ask yourself if any human being on earth today does any of those things that God REQUIRED, in order to be accepted as members of, and belonging to, that old covenant relationship with Him.

    Jesus made the OC obsolete with His death and resurrection, and it DISAPPEARED off the face of the earth in 70AD when the OC Jews paid the price for their rejection of Christ IN FULL. (Hebrews 8:13)

    No one is under the Old Covenant today. Not one single human being is. And that is by design. God made it IMPOSSIBLE for Human beings to be in that Old Covenant relationship with Him after 70AD. And He knew EXACTLY what He was doing.

    The OC was a Parenthesis.

    There are 2 realities today:

    One is either "In Adam" & Condemned to death.

    Or

    One is "in Christ" and saved.

    No other operational "covenant" exists between ANY Man and God today.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The covenant is made only with the House of Judah and the House of Israel. That is written in Jeremiah 31 and repeated word for word in Hebrews 8. The covenant isn't made with anyone else. So, clearly we are part of these two groups, the question as I asked earlier... who is Judah and who is Israel? I believe the Jews are Judah and the church is Israel. When messiah comes, these two groups will come together as one but until then we will remain two unique groups of people. That's what I believe, I have a few hundred verses that lead me to this conclusion... and if you don't share it with me, that's ok. :)
     
  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    What does the bible say about it.
     
  7. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    I think the answer is quite simple. Jesus abandoned the Jews and went 'instead' to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', where he 'built his church', through the apostles who were also "sent only" to the same people.

    I used to be a lost Norwegian/Dutchman. After I was 'saved' I am still a Norwegian/Dutchman although now a spiritually minded one. The remnants of the 'house of Israel' didn't suddenly lose their national identity just because they were now converts to the church. It's called 'spiritual Israel' because, just as any convert, they are now spiritual thinking and acting beings, but still Israelites.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I'm glad you asked.

    The Bible teaches that Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trodden under foot for 42 months (Rev. 11:2). During that Great Tribulation, In those terrible "days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22) which culminated in the destruction of the City and the Sanctuary in A. D. 70, The Bible teaches that the wrath of God against the Jews had come to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and the Jews had paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last cent (Lk. 12:54-59). When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, The Bible teaches that God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, The Bible teaches that the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of a particular strain of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

    The Bible teaches that God punished the right people in AD 66-70, and at that time, in THAT punishment, the ACTUAL Israelites paid the price for their messianic blood guilt TO THE LAST PENNY.

    That some random, multi-ethnic human beings began a NEW religion several Hundred years after AD 70 based on the Man Made Babylonian Talmud and called it Judaism, has no bearing on, and no covenant relationship to, the God-given religion that was delivered BY GOD to Moses on Sinai and extinguished BY GOD at AD70.

    Any "punishment" (or blessing) those Gentile converts to the man-made, post Christian religion of the Talmud, and their descendants and future converts may have received for their CHOICE to follow the man-made Talmud, has no basis in Bible eschatology whatsoever, nor does the United Nations Fiat that forcibly Handed the land of Palestine to those Multi-Ethnic Gentile followers of the Talmud in 1948.

    God Punished the Right People.
    God knew what He was doing, and He did it correctly.
    Hitler, in contrast, did not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  9. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    I don't see any 'finality of punishment' in Luke 12:54-59, only a warning that they would face a frightful price by ignoring or disagreeing with the advent of the times. The majority of Jews still reject the divinity and authority of Christ and thus are still under God's curse.
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    God's Word teaches the wages of sin is death for all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27. There is no salvation to those who reject the Gospel and continue in sin.
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Where does scripture teach that the multi-ethnic people who follow the post-Christian, man-made religion of the Babylonian Talmud are under a special curse today?
     
  12. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    It says the Jews, and perhaps sympathizers and converts to Judaism. Only God knows for sure. Scripture strongly suggests that the Jews won't repent (be converted) until after Christ returns and establishes his rule.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    No curse, in fact just the opposite!

    Jeremiah 31:7-9

    (7) For thus says the LORD:
    “ Sing with gladness for Jacob,
    And shout among the chief of the nations;
    Proclaim, give praise, and say,
    ‘ O LORD, save Your people,
    The remnant of Israel!’
    (8) Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
    And gather them from the ends of the earth,
    Among them the blind and the lame,
    The woman with child
    And the one who labors with child, together;
    A great throng shall return there.
    (9) They shall come with weeping,
    And with supplications I will lead them.
    I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
    In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
    For I am a Father to Israel,
    And Ephraim is My firstborn.

    This is one place among several where God calls Israel His son. This is an unfulfilled prophecy of the "second exodus," when God re-gathers the nations of Israel and Judah. Notice that God will bring back a remnant—all that remains of decimated Israel. They return with weeping and supplication to God. These are the ones who have survived the sword (verse 2). They have been humbled and returned to God, who returns them to His land

    Jeremiah 46:28 (NET): "Though I completely destroy all the nations where I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will indeed discipline you, but only in due measure. I will not allow you to go entirely unpunished."
     
  14. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    This is latter-day (end time) and millenila promise and prophecy. We are just entering "Jacob's Trouble".
     
  15. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    The spiritual Israel would be the Church under the new Covenant right now, as both saved jews/Gentiles come under its banner, but God still has a dealing with national Israel of the flesh, to come right at the end of this age, at the time of the Second Coming event. I am Covenant pre Mil Baptist...
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother YeshuaFan, thanks for your thoughts. I believe it is clear who God's ISRAEL is in the NEW COVENANT. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT we have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. Thanks for your thoughts.

    God bless.
     
  17. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    There is no special deal to save out Jews, as they still must come thru Yeshua Himself in order for that to happen!
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    GOD'S ISRAEL IS THE CHURCH IN THE NEW COVENANT (Part 4/4)

    Gentiles are now grafted in...

    ROMANS 11:16-27
    [16], For if the firstfruit are holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    The root represents Christ...

    [17], And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

    The Jewish and the Gentile believers are the branches grafted onto the root (Christ)...

    [18], Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
    [19], You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    [20], Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not arrogant, but fear:

    God's ISRAEL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD...

    [21], For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also not spare you.
    [22], Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
    [23], And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    [24], For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    [25], For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
    [26], And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    The NEW COVENANT is for both Jews and Greek, bond and free, all those who are in Christ. All in Christ are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.

    [27], For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    No more Jew or Greek, bond or free, male or female, if you are in Christ you are ISRAEL...

    GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

    God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

    ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

    God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

    ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

    COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

    ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

    The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

    EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

    and again...

    JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Paul proclaims it here...

    HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    ................

    The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL
    (Romans 11:16-27)

    ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. God's WORD is given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW it by faith.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Next I would like to ask why is a KNOWLEGE of who God's ISRAEL is in the NEW COVENANT important to our understanding of God's WORD in both the OLD and NEW COVENANT scriptures. An incorrect view of who God's ISRAEL is in the NEW COVENANT can lead you away from undstanding God's WORD in both the OLD and NEW. Does anyone have any ideas? I will post my thoughts a little latter.

    God bless.
     
  20. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    We can either see Israel as now being the Church , or else see Israel and the Church as 2 separate entities now!
     
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