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I'm not an Arminian, as both of you posit. You are still called to believe, and infants cannot believe. I will not read your long post defending infant so called baptism.
Infant baptism is not mentioned in the Bible neither is anyone saved by baptism only faith alone saves so is infant baptism unbiblical?
what im seeing is the stretching of Scripture to take 2 seperate things and make it work for what you want it to work for...i litteraly study the litteral translation of orginal 1500s greek New Testement fancy speech means nothing to me ONLY Scripture ...you want to show me its Biblical you need show me Scripture without your opinion just Scripture...
I think it is … so I attend a Baptist church where we don’t baptize babies (because they do not obey the command to “believe and be baptized” or “repent and be baptized”). However, the paedobaptist Christians of the word can continue to baptize infants with my blessings because we baptists believe that each soul answers to the Bible and to God … (so it is not my place to insist that everyone agree with me, only that you not disagree with scripture).Infant baptism is not mentioned in the Bible neither is anyone saved by baptism only faith alone saves so is infant baptism unbiblical?
i think you belive im a part of some sec you know of ...im not...i dont know about this "age of reason" i simply know is a childI’m sorry, how on earth is this twisting of Scripture? Peter and Luke are using the same word, and that word means “babies”. My point is simply to illustrate that the word which is commonly translated as “little children” is not wrong, but that this means anything from infant to small talking children.
Or if it’s easier to comprehend, simply think of it this way: Matthew uses “small children” and Luke uses “babies” to describe the children who were brought to Jesus. This isn’t my “theology”, this is just the plain reading of what they say.
So my point is this: When Jesus says: "Let the little children come to me", we should not understand this to mean teenagers (or kids above whatever the so-called "age of reason" is) walking up to Jesus to give their lives to Him, but rather, quite literally as the text says that "children were brought to Him".
soim not trying to be hostile i just dont know of a better way to ask so ill be straightforward... if the lutharn church baptizes infants and thus they have the Holy Spirit why is the lutheran church allowing people with gender disphoria be decons...why is the lutheran church allowing anti God doctrine to rule them?If you don't want Lutheran answers on a Lutheran board, why did you post on a Lutheran board? You have the opportunity to learn something here that perhaps you have not considered before.
And of course infants can believe.
"In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb." - Luke 1:39-41
How could John the Baptist leap within Elizabeth's womb? Because we read that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even from the womb (Luke 1:15), he had faith.
There's no reason to kick against the goads here. Receive Scripture with faith and joy.
-CryptoLutheran
soim not trying to be hostile i just dont know of a better way to ask so ill be straightforward... if the lutharn church baptizes infants and thus they have the Holy Spirit why is the lutheran church allowing people with gender disphoria be decons...why is the lutheran church allowing anti God doctrine to rule them?
so with so much division how is the church of one mind ?Firstly, there are different Lutheran bodies and not all Lutheran bodies are in fellowship together. For example the ELCA and LCMS are two of the largest Lutheran bodies in the United States, but they are not in fellowship together. In large part because of differences on topics such as these. The ELCA is frequently considered more "liberal" while the LCMS is considered more "conservative". So, in that sense, it's actually not true that "the Lutheran Church" is doing X, Y, or Z. And even, for example, within the ELCA itself if you look at some of the upper leadership you may find opinions on X, Y, and Z that are not necessarily shared by the local congregations and pastors. Lutheran bodies, at least in North America, don't tend to be top-down in structure, but more bottom-up. So if you are uncomfortable with some things that happen in the ELCA, that doesn't mean the LCMS or WELS or the AALC or other Lutheran bodies are doing those.
Secondly, I think those topics require a much greater level of pastoral concern than merely saying "people with gender disphoria are anti-God" allows. It's a highly loaded way of talking that doesn't really meet the reality of the sinful human condition with Law and Gospel that it requires. We are to meet the human condition in a Christ-centered way, in a way that is faithful to God's word, in a way that addresses the full tragedy of sin with the hard truth of the Law and also the sweet gentleness of the Gospel in which there is real, true, full, and actual forgiveness of all our sins. So that means that even in a "liberal" Lutheran body you aren't necessarily going to find it to be as "liberal" as some other supposedly "liberal" denominations; and even in a "conservative" Lutheran body you aren't necessarily going to find it to be as "conservative" as some other supposedly "conservative" denominations. Because while Lutherans have our differences, and they are big enough that they have caused breaks in our fellowship to occur, the call to a faithful confession of Jesus Christ, His Gospel, and to a proper understanding of Law and Gospel often means that extreme attitudes, in any direction, tends to be mitigated by the truth of God's word. That doesn't mean you won't find congregations where weird things happen, or the occasional outlier. Those exist, but they are very far and few in-between; most Lutheran congregations, regardless of what body they are a part of, look and sound--well--Lutheran.
But to really answer your question: Christians are sinners. Having the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we suddenly have everything figured out, that we live pure lives without sin--not at all. We are simul iustus et peccator, saint-and-sinner. The new man, alive by the Spirit, created anew in Christ coexists with the old man, the flesh. It's what we read about in Romans chapter 7 where Paul speaks of the good he wants to do but doesn't do, and the evil he doesn't want to do he still does. He speaks as though there is a law of sin in his very bodily members, as though sin is buried right in his skin and bones; and yet with his mind he wants to be obedient to God he still does things contrary to the law of God. That's the reality. And that is why we continually preach Law (what God commands, which we don't do, because we are sinners, and thus must repent and confess our sins) and Gospel (the free and unmerited grace of God in Jesus Christ which gives us faith, and absolves us of all our sins, and there is the total and full forgiveness of all our sins on Christ's account). Law and Gospel, never confusing the two, never preaching the Gospel by mingling it with a little Law, or the Law mingled with a little Gospel; but the Law as the Law and the Gospel as the Gospel. The Law which says "do this, and yet it is never done" and the Gospel which says "trust this, for it is already done" (to quote Luther in his Heidelberg Disputation of 1518).
If you are trying to look at the works of sinners to find righteousness you're never going to find it. Because sinners have no righteousness to present. And that includes us Christians. That is why works can never save, works can never justify. The only righteousness we have before God is the righteousness of Christ which is God's gift received by faith alone. That is why the baptized, having put on Christ (Galatians 3:27) stand righteous before God on Christ's account. This doesn't mean good works don't matter, of course they matter, Paul says that we were created for good works (Ephesians 2:10), but these good works don't make us righteous before God and do not and cannot aid us in our life in and with and before God. The purpose of good works is obedience to God borne out of faith for the good of our neighbor--your neighbor is hungry, feed him, your neighbor is thirsty, give her drink, your neighbor is naked, without shelter, sick, a stranger; clothe them, house them, provide medical care for them, welcome them.
I am really only scratching the surface of Lutheran theology on these things. Lutheran theology is frequently very simple, but immensely deep. It's simple, because we are really just confessing the plain word of God; but that is also why it gets quite deep; because we are confessing the word of God.
-CryptoLutheran
so with so much division how is the church of one mind ?
if the Bible says A. and a group says no B. i dont understand what there is to bicker about...Show me a church that hasn't suffered division in this sinful world. It doesn't exist.
If you're trying to find a perfect church anywhere here in this sin-soaked world of death, you're going to be out of luck. All we have is Jesus Christ and the grace of God in this world. But be encouraged by the witness of the saints who have gone before, a great cloud of witnesses cheering you and me and all other Christians on as we run the race with our eyes fixed upon Jesus Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith. Hear the word, remember your baptism, receive Christ's Supper, God sustains us, God keeps us, God is faithful even in our faithlessness.
-CryptoLutheran
if the Bible says A. and a group says no B. i dont understand what there is to bicker about...
do this in remberance of Me...is that not what He said?In the Bible we read that Jesus took bread and said "This is My body". Why do so many churches, then, say that this "bread that we break" is not "participation in the body of Christ" (see 1 Corinthians 10:16)?
-CryptoLutheran
one could even immidetly refer also to the next verse...In the Bible we read that Jesus took bread and said "This is My body". Why do so many churches, then, say that this "bread that we break" is not "participation in the body of Christ" (see 1 Corinthians 10:16)?
-CryptoLutheran
do this in remberance of Me...is that not what He said?
well ill probably get in trouble here however there is 1 truth .... so if it is not the truth it is a lie....its like everyone here forgets there is a false church that we are commanded to TEST every spirit...that liars departed the TRUE assembily to decive all they could....everyone so caught up in praising their doctrine that is a divison of Christ (unless anyone cares to call paul a liar) which is their true doctrine.... they plaster the Bible on their doctrine instead of making the Bible itself their doctrine....He did. Because it is it is His own body, not a representation of it, but it is His real and actual body. So why are there churches which do not believe Him? If you want to better understand the concept of anamnesis "remembrance" in the context of the Lord's Supper, I'd encourage you to understand what the Jewish Seder meant. To offer a brief summary: when Jews meet together for the Passover Seder the words they say are, "We were slaves in Egypt" not merely, "our ancestors were slaves in Egypt"; because the redemption of God's people in the Exodus isn't merely an old memory but a living memory. The remembrance is not just being sentimental, it's a reality which informs and gives total identity to every Jewish person since God led them out of captivity from Egypt. Jesus Christ, took bread, broke it, saying "This is My body" and He took the wine and said, "This is the New Covenant in My blood". We don't come together to have a nice sentiment, we come together because here in this bread and wine is the true body and true blood of Jesus, He who died for the sins of the world, and we have our very identity as a Christian people because Christ is here, really here; not as a fond memory, but the Incarnate, Crucified, and Risen Lord. Therefore, "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." (1 Corinthians 10:17).
So, again, I ask--why are there churches which do not believe Him? If you can answer that, then you'll have your answer why not all churches are of one mind on everything.
-CryptoLutheran
at the high levels this stuff is very philosophical and advanced, dealing with metaphysics and such. However, you can make a case based on sola scriptura for the Lutheran view from the Greek and Hebrew; the philosophy is to try and rationalize it but attempts at doing so are the work of scholars. The Lords supper and baptism have been an issue for 500 years.well ill probably get in trouble here however there is 1 truth .... so if it is not the truth it is a lie....its like everyone here forgets there is a false church that we are commanded to TEST every spirit...that liars departed the TRUE assembily to decive all they could....everyone so caught up in praising their doctrine that is a divison of Christ (unless anyone cares to call paul a liar) which is their true doctrine.... they plaster the Bible on their doctrine instead of making the Bible itself their doctrine....
so with so much division how is the church of one mind ?
we should strive for unity based on what God's Word says, as opposed to tradition, reason, or a false unity based on indifference. This is why my recommendation on this topic of Baptism is to go to the Scriptures. Read everything the Bible has to say about Baptism. I think if you do, you'll have a hard time understanding Baptism as a mere outward declaration of faith. The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says there is one Baptism, and that is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Read what else the Bible says about that Baptism — what it is and what promises God has attached to it.
The entire visible church is, to every Christian's shame and lament, fractured. This is not something that is unique to the broader Lutheran church, but is true for every denomination, and this is something we should all repent of.
However, it can be helpful to consider that although we humans are divided, we are united by the person and works of Christ. So we can take comfort in Jesus and His good promises, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about working for unity. And while we strive for unity, we should strive for unity based on what God's Word says, as opposed to tradition, reason, or a false unity based on indifference. This is why my recommendation on this topic of Baptism is to go to the Scriptures. Read everything the Bible has to say about Baptism. I think if you do, you'll have a hard time understanding Baptism as a mere outward declaration of faith. The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says there is one Baptism, and that is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Read what else the Bible says about that Baptism — what it is and what promises God has attached to it.
We live in an age where people seek to live like the early Christians in Acts. Yet, they often ignore this passage: "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers." In this, we have a devotion to (1) God's Word and sound doctrine, (2) Christian fellowship, (3) the Eucharist, and (4) the prayers, which we can primarily understand to mean the Lord's Prayer. The Lutheran Church takes this passage, and all of Scripture, very seriously. We preach Christ crucified, we strive for true unity based on God's Word, we break bread, and we pray the Lord's Prayer in our devotional life and also in our services. So if you write here in the Lutheran forum because you want to learn about the Lutheran Church, I can suggest listening to what we preach and what we pray for, for this is probably going to be a lot less overwhelming or confusing than trying to wrestle with a different theological system to the one you hold to. That is, in our preaching and prayers, you can see our theology at work in practice, and in it, I believe you can see how Christ-focused it is. Speaking for myself, this is the reason why I became Lutheran and eventually got to serve in the Orthodox Lutheran church.
see im confused (im not trying to specify just lutheran church just since thats what you are i know you know best of them so were the example i 100% AGREE every denomination and really even among the "non" denominational is great divison everywhere)
on to the verse you gave couple verses down i seen this and this is what greatly perplexs me
we know there is 1 truth yes?
so that means some people are right and some in error yes?
Bible says rebuke (not out of malice but out of LOVE of the TRUTH ) those is error yes?
so why is the mainstream normal set to perswade everyone that being fixed on the truth is less important as long as we agree on some other things that were written in the same Gospel. ...no one has to agree on EVERYTHING all the time...EXCEPT Christians and what Scripture says...
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