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Is Human Equality just a concept?

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Adrian Moir

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Friend, if you’d like to go back and read post 45 you’ll see your comment that I was replying to.

Adrian Moir said:
And what is self-evident here, is that no amount of chemical reactions can ever become self-aware,

So let’s not muddy the water with equality when that is not what we are discussing- this is an interesting discussion- iron sharpens iron, eh?


Yes...And what exactly is not self-evident about chemical reactions not becoming self-aware over time due to the thermodynamic principles of the conservation of energy? Which states that the amount of disorder within an open system remains at a constant and does not decrease over time. Which means is that chemicals will break down over time just as organic matter will oxidize in the open atmosphere, and within a fluid the chemicals are diluted and not compounded.

So there are no examples of pure chemicals evolving by chemical reactions, and the myth that chemicals can arrange themselves into a sequence such as a DNA sequence without anything in place to bond the acids and bases together has been refuted, because hydrogen bonds are not a part of DNA but are still required by the protein mechanisms to supply the hydrogen bonds and put them into there correct sequence based on the genetic instructions them self.

The origin of instructions is what's important here, and nature cannot produce instructions because instructions show a level of planning was involved. And I don't know about you, but I for one do not believe that the wind and the rain are planning to take over the world like an episode of Pinky and the Brain or something.


Pasteur and Tyndall experiment:
Louis Pasteur's 1859 experiment is widely seen as having settled the question of spontaneous generation. He boiled a meat broth in a swan neck flask; the bend in the neck of the flask prevented falling particles from reaching the broth, while still allowing the free flow of air.

Spontaneous generation is a body of thought on the ordinary formation of living organisms without descent from similar organisms. The theory of spontaneous generation held that living creatures could arise from nonliving matter and that such processes were commonplace and regular.

Rejection of spontaneous generation is no longer controversial among biologists. By the middle of the 19th century, experiments by Louis Pasteur and others refuted the traditional theory of spontaneous generation and supported biogenesis
 
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Astrid

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Throughout time humanity has divided itself based on land disputes as well as disputes over which laws are fair, and which laws are not fair. Historically, the fairest systems of law have not only included collective distributions to the poor, but also rights for the poor in order that their cause should be heard, which is the sole basis for case law (common law).

The most unfair systems in history have been empires with imperial ambitions to rule and govern people as a whole, leaving little or no room for the cause of the poor to be heard and understood from their hardships. An imperial rule is no different to a fascism historically, because both imperial rule and government dictatorships rely on covet means to expand their interests abroad to include foreign territories for resources, and direct taxation of the inhabitants to fund imperial ambitions.

The best way to describe the differences between these two systems of rule is to imagine a straight line with a 100% margin at the left end of the line, and a 0% margin at the far right of the line. The far left represents total government, which is defined as a fascism because of its totalitarian authority.
The far right on the other hand is distinguished by having no government, which is defined as anarchy, because there is no system of law in place.

Between these two scopes there is a wide margin between anarchy and fascism, with the conservative view in the middle. The conservative view includes a system of law from the government that protects the people's right to life and liberty.
A democratic republic is defined as a conservative system, because the democracy is from the far right, while the republic is from the far left.
A constitutional system of law presides from the middle of these two extremes as being conservative, which is in the best interests of the democracy, and the republic. Because if democracy is not upheld by the republic then the government is to be defined as a fascism, and not as a democratic republic.

The declaration of independence in its second paragraph says that:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

And these words have had such a significant level of importance on human life that the declaration itself is never to be underestimated in terms of its value. Because, this is the sole basis for human equality, and without human equality, there will be no lawful premise for equal justice.

So according to the First Amendment, the human being is endowed with rights, and these rights have been defined as inalienable, meaning that a person is born with them, and they cannot be given away, and can be exercised at any time.
But what makes this different from being just a concept is due to the fact that we are all endowed with a conscience in order to understand morality, which is how we decide right from wrong.

And what is self-evident here, is that no amount of chemical reactions can ever become self-aware, which means that life is a conscious reality, and not just a physical one, which is self-explanatory.
The difference between being conscious, and having a conscience, is that the conscience is specifically for determining fact from fiction, the truth from a lie, and yes or no with. While being conscious means to be aware of your surroundings, yourself and to be breathing also, because, being conscious was initially from breath to begin with according to Genesis chapter 2.

And what all of this means is that we are all equal under the law according to our God given conscience, and not, according to one's appearance. And this is the international standard for equal rights according to article 1 from the United Nations Global Declaration of Human Rights and Equality.
The definition of what a natural person is under law, has been defined as being an individual who is endowed with the ability to reason from their conscience. So the proper legal definition of what a human is under law has been defined by the endowed conscience. Which means that without a conscience, you are not a human being, but only an animal or a thing.

An animal or thing has been legally defined as property under the law. But because slavery is unlawful, as it deprives people of their equality, it will mean that there is no legal obligation for anyone to regard them self or others as being from an animal, because an animal is without a conscience, and a conscience is required before the law in order to make a case.

What is the first liberty?
Freedom of thought (also called freedom of conscience or ideas) is the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.

What do we mean by freedom of conscience?
Freedom of conscience – sometimes called “freedom of worship” or “religious freedom” – means simply the freedom to worship in one's own way, including the right not to worship.

Psalm 41:1-3
1 Blessed is the one who considers the poor!
In the day of trouble the Lord delivers him;
2 the Lord protects him and keeps him alive;
he is called blessed in the land;
you do not give him up to the will of his enemies.
3 The Lord sustains him on his sickbed;
in his illness you restore him to full health.

Call it an ideal
 
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Adrian Moir

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Call it an ideal

It's called self-evident...And I will leave you with a link to the United Nations human rights commission if you wish to contest this "ideal", which is actually notwithoutstanding in its own legal defence.

It's not hard, just put it in words how your feeling and I am sure that you're feelings will be taken into serious consideration over the rights of others... all day long...And the sky is pink, and buffalos play poker, and monkey-men made from a wax museum take priority over human equality...Pfft

United Nations human rights council email address:
InfoDesk@ohchr.org

What is Notwithstanding in legal terms?
Notwithstanding means despite, nevertheless, however, or although. You can use this word as a preposition, as a conjunction, or as an adverb. A common legal phrase is “notwithstanding anything to the contrary.” Antonyms include because of, given, consequently, and accordingly.
 
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Larniavc

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Yes...And what exactly is not self-evident about chemical reactions not becoming self-aware over time due to the thermodynamic principles of the conservation of energy? Which states that the amount of disorder within an open system remains at a constant and does not decrease over time. Which means is that chemicals will break down over time just as organic matter will oxidize in the open atmosphere, and within a fluid the chemicals are diluted and not compounded.

So there are no examples of pure chemicals evolving by chemical reactions, and the myth that chemicals can arrange themselves into a sequence such as a DNA sequence without anything in place to bond the acids and bases together has been refuted, because hydrogen bonds are not a part of DNA but are still required by the protein mechanisms to supply the hydrogen bonds and put them into there correct sequence based on the genetic instructions them self.

The origin of instructions is what's important here, and nature cannot produce instructions because instructions show a level of planning was involved. And I don't know about you, but I for one do not believe that the wind and the rain are planning to take over the world like an episode of Pinky and the Brain or something.


Pasteur and Tyndall experiment:
Louis Pasteur's 1859 experiment is widely seen as having settled the question of spontaneous generation. He boiled a meat broth in a swan neck flask; the bend in the neck of the flask prevented falling particles from reaching the broth, while still allowing the free flow of air.

Spontaneous generation is a body of thought on the ordinary formation of living organisms without descent from similar organisms. The theory of spontaneous generation held that living creatures could arise from nonliving matter and that such processes were commonplace and regular.

Rejection of spontaneous generation is no longer controversial among biologists. By the middle of the 19th century, experiments by Louis Pasteur and others refuted the traditional theory of spontaneous generation and supported biogenesis
Friend, you need to provide evidence for your assertions.

Spontaneous generation does not mean what you think it means. It means living organisms appearing ex nilo. And everyone who follows the scientific method will agree that ex nilo creation does not happen.

Unless you can provide evidence of ex nilo creation Occam’s razor mean life develops naturally.

I’m confused when you say that entropy cannot decrease. How do you explain phase transitions where the entropy decreases. Entropy decreases in an open system all the time.
 
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Ophiolite

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Good grief. That's so catastrophically incorrect, it's not even wrong. I'm not even sure where to start...

Maybe that the big bang has nothing to do with evolution (or even abiogenesis in fact). And the universe expanded across the universe? So the universe was already here? Kinda odd as the big bang created the universe. And it didn't expand across anything in any case. The expansion was everywhere. And who told you that light could accelerate anyway?
Yes, the post you are responding to was remarkable, even by the bizarre standards adhered to by some members on CF. I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, or recommend a social worker. I decided to have a drambuie on ice instead. It worked. Cheers. :)
 
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Ophiolite

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That's ok...Commy's aren't meant to be included in our society anyway.

Atheism is actively trying to protect the rights of sex offenders by supporting LGBT rights, and any other abnormal sexual behavioural movement as totally normal.
I take it from the above that you are only in favour of equality for those who you consider to be your equals. Quite sad.
 
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Adrian Moir

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Friend, you need to provide evidence for your assertions.

Spontaneous generation does not mean what you think it means. It means living organisms appearing ex nilo. And everyone who follows the scientific method will agree that ex nilo creation does not happen.

Unless you can provide evidence of ex nilo creation Occam’s razor mean life develops naturally.

I’m confused when you say that entropy cannot decrease. How do you explain phase transitions where the entropy decreases. Entropy decreases in an open system all the time.


I have not made an assertion, I have referenced physical laws which prevent chemicals from evolving, and you believe that I should prove that these physical laws exist now in order to appease your thirst for information. Well you can go back to school and do your homework because not only do physical laws exist but so do rules, which is self-evident.
Because no amount of chemical reactions can become self-aware over time due to the thermodynamic principles of the conservation of energy, which states that the amount of disorder within an open system will increase over time.

So the burden of proof is on the individual who is challenging the physical laws, (the plaintiff) and not the individual defending the laws of science,(the defendant) which was something that I explained to you very clearly before from a legal premise.

The physical law which has determined for a fact that we are all equal is solely on the basis that each and every person is born with a conscience, and the conscience is defined as unique to mankind, and not to the animals.
So the law you are challenging is called freedom of conscience, which is not a concept or an ideal, it is a physical reality that is based on the fact that each person is endowed with a conscience, with which, to reason from which is self-evident. So there is no denying the existence of conscience from your conscience, which is self-explanatory.

And any further complaints about the existence of human equality can be taken up with the law from this point. Because I'm sure you're already aware that you're physical ability to make a complaint regarding the law of human equality is physically restricted, and that is because human equality is not debatable without subjugating others in the process, which is physical evidence of inequality by rule, and not by physical laws.

What is burden of proof in law?
The plaintiff brings this claim. As the claimant, [he/she] must prove it [subject to any exceptions, such as an allegation of contributory negligence]. That is, the plaintiff carries what the law calls the burden of proof. The plaintiff must prove what may be called the ingredients of [his/her] claim.
- Judicial College education.com
 
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Astrid

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It's called self-evident...And I will leave you with a link to the United Nations human rights commission if you wish to contest this "ideal", which is actually notwithoutstanding in its own legal defence.

It's not hard, just put it in words how your feeling and I am sure that you're feelings will be taken into serious consideration over the rights of others... all day long...And the sky is pink, and buffalos play poker, and monkey-men made from a wax museum take priority over human equality...Pfft

United Nations human rights council email address:
InfoDesk@ohchr.org

What is Notwithstanding in legal terms?
Notwithstanding means despite, nevertheless, however, or although. You can use this word as a preposition, as a conjunction, or as an adverb. A common legal phrase is “notwithstanding anything to the contrary.” Antonyms include because of, given, consequently, and accordingly.

Ive seen you demolish your credibility elsewhere,
No need to keep it up.
 
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Larniavc

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I have referenced physical laws which prevent chemicals from evolving,
No you haven’t. Which laws prevent chemicals building up into life?
 
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Larniavc

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which states that the amount of disorder within an open system will increase over time.
But entropy can decrease.

“The entropy of isolated systems cannot decrease. However, when a system is not isolated, but is in contact with its surrounding, then the entropy of this open system may decrease, with a necessary compensating increase in the entropy of the surroundings.”

Entropy

So maybe it is you who should go back to school?
 
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Adrian Moir

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No you haven’t. Which laws prevent chemicals building up into life?



........I - just - explained - the - physical - laws - to - you - regarding - thermodynamic - entropy.
But - if -you - want - to - fight - about - it - then -you - can - just - burn.

Because - I - am - not - repeating - the - same - thing - over - and - over - again - to - a - wicked -unlettered - incoherent - fool - who - want's - to - argue - the - point - with - me - about - my - own -humanity.

So - as - far - as - I - am - concerned - you - can - take - up - your - complaint - regarding - my - statement - about - chemicals - and - choke - on - it - because - I - will - not - be - denied - my - humanity - by - a - complete - stranger - that - believes - their - an - animal - by - way - of - chemical - evolution.

In other words you can keep complaining to me as if you're an authority, but as it stands, human equality is incontestable, and that is not only because every human being has a conscience, but also because no amount of chemical reactions can become self-aware due to the thermodynamic principles of entropy and the conservation of energy, which states that:
-The total amount of disorder within an open system will increase over time and will never decrease.

And what that means for those of you who are still asking the wizard of Oz for a brain, is that chemicals cannot organize them self into a set of instructions. And I do not need to watch chemicals for one million years to prove it...Because the law of thermodynamics has demonstrated it by way of example through the inability of organic matter to produce a living organism without the need for a pre-existing life.
 
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Adrian Moir

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But entropy can decrease.

“The entropy of isolated systems cannot decrease. However, when a system is not isolated, but is in contact with its surrounding, then the entropy of this open system may decrease, with a necessary compensating increase in the entropy of the surroundings.”

Entropy

So maybe it is you who should go back to school?


Can entropy of an open system decrease?
The total entropy of a system either increases or remains constant in any process; it never decreases.
Entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics: Disorder and the Unavailability of Energy | Physics

What is an open system in biology?
An open system is one in which energy can be transferred between the system and its surroundings. ... Biological organisms are open systems. Energy is exchanged between them and their surroundings, as they consume energy-storing molecules and release energy to the environment by doing work.
Open and Closed Systems | Biology for Majors I.


Here is something that is more suitable for your learning capacity:
Physics for kids
Physics for Kids Course - Online Video Lessons | Study.com
 
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partinobodycular

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But entropy can decrease.

“The entropy of isolated systems cannot decrease. However, when a system is not isolated, but is in contact with its surrounding, then the entropy of this open system may decrease, with a necessary compensating increase in the entropy of the surroundings.”

Entropy

So maybe it is you who should go back to school?
Actually, Adrian's mistake has nothing to do with how entropy can behave in an open system versus a closed one. Unfortunately his mistake is much, much worse than that.

Adrian is making the somewhat understandable mistake of looking at the world and confusing disorder with order. When we look at the universe we see galaxies, and stars, and planets, and rocks, and oceans, and plants, and animals, and people. And we think...wow...where did all that order come from? Doesn't the 2nd law of thermodynamics say that entropy always increases? So where did all that stuff come from? It couldn't have happened naturally...could it?


But the problem is, that all that "stuff" doesn't represent order, it represents disorder. Let's think back to the big bang, when entropy was really, really low. All you had was basically a homogeneous quark soup. The universe looked exactly the same no matter where you looked. It looked the same over here as it does over there...that's low entropy. High entropy is when it doesn't look the same over here as it does over there. It's when you have a tree over here, and a frog over there, that's high entropy.

So all of that stuff...stars, and planets, and us, isn't a case of decreasing entropy, rather it's exactly what you'd expect to get with increasing entropy. The 2nd law of thermodynamics basically says that a system should naturally go from having nothing to having stuff. And that stuff should get more and more complex over time...until voila, you've got us.

So Adrian has kinda shot himself in the foot by appealing to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, because it doesn't imply what he thinks it implies.
 
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Adrian Moir

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But entropy can decrease.

“The entropy of isolated systems cannot decrease. However, when a system is not isolated, but is in contact with its surrounding, then the entropy of this open system may decrease, with a necessary compensating increase in the entropy of the surroundings.”

Entropy

So maybe it is you who should go back to school?


What is the first self-evident truth in the Declaration of Independence?
All men – regardless of gender, race, ability or any other qualifier are the moral equal of every other individual. This is the first self-evident truth and the foundation of any and all independence in America.


Is a chemical reaction a closed system?
If a chemical reaction happens in a container where none of the reactants or products can escape, you have a closed system. ... At equilibrium, the concentrations of reactants and products do not change. But the forward and reverse reactions have not stopped - they are still going on, and at the same rate as each other.

Are humans a closed or open system?
A system with no inputs is called a closed system. One with inputs is an open system. Since human being needs energy, water, minerals, etc. (as inputs), human body is an open system.

What is not a system?
1. a system that does not function properly.
The result is not a system but a non-system. an attempt to replace this ad hoc non-system with something less muddled.
 
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Adrian Moir

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Actually, Adrian's mistake has nothing to do with how entropy can behave in an open system versus a closed one. Unfortunately his mistake is much, much worse than that.

Adrian is making the somewhat understandable mistake of looking at the world and confusing disorder with order. When we look at the universe we see galaxies, and stars, and planets, and rocks, and oceans, and plants, and animals, and people. And we think...wow...where did all that order come from? Doesn't the 2nd law of thermodynamics say that entropy always increases? So where did all that stuff come from? It couldn't have happened naturally...could it?


But the problem is, that all that "stuff" doesn't represent order, it represents disorder. Let's think back to the big bang, when entropy was really, really low. All you had was basically a homogeneous quark soup. The universe looked exactly the same no matter where you looked. It looked the same over here as it does over there...that's low entropy. High entropy is when it doesn't look the same over here as it does over there. It's when you have a tree over here, and a frog over there, that's high entropy.

So all of that stuff...stars, and planets, and us, isn't a case of decreasing entropy, rather it's exactly what you'd expect to get with increasing entropy. The 2nd law of thermodynamics basically says that a system should naturally go from having nothing to having stuff. And that stuff should get more and more complex over time...until voila, you've got us.

So Adrian has kinda shot himself in the foot by appealing to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, because it doesn't imply what he thinks it implies.



The greatest myth of all time is the belief that chemical reactions can become self-aware without the need for pre-existing life.
And because all known life comes from pre-existing life because no organism can spontaneously generate from non living chemicals, it will mean by way of demonstration that the only way to bring life into existence is from previous life and not from non life, which is what chemicals are. And the process of converting chemicals into life is what requires a manufacturing base first, and that is what the body is because we produce waist as well as product.
The waist part is self explanatory, so I wont go into detail, but the product that humans produce is called a baby and this is the result of procreation and not evolution, which is according to the correct definitions used, and not some Nihilistic Atheist without a hope of ever finding a meaning for their own existence in any event, let alone somebody else's for that matter.


Dictionary
Definitions by Oxford Languages
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creation
/kriːˈeɪʃ(ə)n/
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noun
1.
the action or process of bringing something into existence.


Does procreate mean reproduce?
To procreate is to reproduce. In other words, to procreate is a more formal way of saying "making babies." ... That's a clue that this word is about making something, in this case, making more creatures.


What does it mean to reproduce a drawing?
A reproduction is a copy of another work of art. It could be a copy of a painting, drawing or of an original print. ... Both reproductions and original prints can be signed and numbered by the artist. You need to be aware that just because it is signed, does not verify that the piece is original.
 
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Adrian Moir

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If people think that entropy cannot decrease in an open system, I would wonder how they explain snowflakes forming when the weather gets cold.



Gee, that's brilliant... Why didn't I think of that? Maybe it was because a snowflake cannot reproduce another snowflake...
As though little Miss snowflake wants a husband now.
Every snowflake that forms reaches a level of natural complexity and then it will naturally fade, which is no different to an open system, but the difference is that snowflakes cannot reproduce another snowflake...
Which means automatically that they must form naturally, while living organisms must procreate instead of waiting in the refrigerator for a suitable partner to form.
 
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partinobodycular

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The greatest myth of all time is the belief that chemical reactions can become self-aware without the need for pre-existing life.
Now you're just digging a deeper hole.

You've already quoted the 2nd law of thermodynamics that says that entropy must increase. The crux of which is that something must come into being that didn't exist before. And this process of ever increasing complexity must be ongoing if the 2nd law is correct.

So why are you so amazed that complex systems have evolved out of simpler ones? How could increasing entropy result in anything else?
 
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Adrian Moir

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Now you're just digging a deeper hole.

You've already quoted the 2nd law of thermodynamics that says that entropy must increase. The crux of which is that something must come into being that didn't exist before. And this process of ever increasing complexity must be ongoing if the 2nd law is correct.

So why are you so amazed that complex systems have evolved out of simpler ones? How could increasing entropy result in anything else?


The only way for a system to come into existence is by creativity, either directly or indirectly, and there are no there examples.
There is only one word that describes the action of something new coming into existence, which is the action of creativity according to the dictionary.
And it does not matter at what point the creativity was added to the materials, if instructions have been added as a rule, then someone has made an input to the system, and a system is governed by its rules and not its parts.
Rules do not form naturally because rules are always inferred from outside of the system.
Which is why your TV does not grow legs and walk on down to the voting booth to try and have Michael Jackson banned from MTV.

Wikipedia
A system is a group of interacting or interrelated elements that act according to a set of rules to form a unified whole. A system, surrounded and influenced by its environment, is described by its boundaries, structure and purpose and expressed in its functioning. Systems are the subjects of study of systems theory.

Definitions by Oxford Languages
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parameter
/pəˈramɪtə/
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noun
1.
TECHNICAL
a numerical or other measurable factor forming one of a set that defines a system or sets the conditions of its operation.
"there are three parameters by which a speaker is able to modify the meaning of the utterance—pitch, volume, and tempo"
2.
a limit or boundary which defines the scope of a particular process or activity.
"the parameters within which the media work"
Similar:
framework
variable
limit
boundary
limiting factor
limitation
 
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partinobodycular

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The only way for a system to come into existence is by creativity, either directly or indirectly, and there are no there examples.
I guess I have to repeat my previous post, and your contention that the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that entropy must increase. Which means that complex things must come into existence, they have no choice.

So I've already kicked out one of the legs of your stool. But let's go for a second. And that's the idea that creativity must be involved.

The obvious question is...why?

Now if there is a "creator" being, how creative does He have to be? The answer is...not very. All that that being has to create is the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and from there everything else inevitably creates itself. No further creativity required. Just one simple, mindless law, entropy must increase.

Now if a conscious system is more complex than than an unconscious system, and complexity always increases, then a conscious system is inevitable, no further input required.

So your creative being really doesn't have to be very creative.
 
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