Is Hell Really Eternal?

[Phoneman777]

Please answer according to what I said.

Where in the scripture does it say Sodom and Gomorrah is still burning on earth?

I think that's the point. A better question is where in Scripture does it say that the fires transitioned from tangible to intangible?

 

[Phoneman777]

Trying to replace scripture with one's own personal feelings. Did God love the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, or any of the other people that He punished in the OT? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Yes, the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah is still burning in the same way that eternal redemption means Jesus will suffer the cruelty of the cross continually and eternal judgment means that angelic heralds will cry, "Order in the court, order in the court" as God's heavenly gavel slams down continually. Why can't people see that the "eternal" aspect of these verses has nothing to do with the PROCESS, but has to do with the RESULT?

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

The authors decide what they want to say and what they mean. Not the reader! The only figurative language is what the author intends.

Yes, this is the favored position of the dogmatic literalist.

The only figurative language is what the author intends. Otherwise there are no rules, anybody can interpret scripture any way they want, claiming that it is figurative and the Bible can be made to prove almost anything.

Untrue. First, these are manmade rules, not God's....behold the corruption of dogmatic literalism, which shuts out God and forces Him to say what manmade rules hold Him to in His inspired word. This is the same disease suffered by the Pharisees.

Second, you parrot the same tired "Spiritualizers make the Bible say whatever they want it to!" baloney as all hardcore literalists. You haven't exerted a drop of energy in actually trying to understand what I've posted. You simply rail against every point, often sticking your foot in your mouth in the process, but seem not to notice as the important thing appears to be only that you revile the dreaded allegorist....what he actually says is of no importance. Shameful.

Here's something much closer to the truth....

Any allegorical interpretation of the Bible may, if it is able to sufficiently meet the criteria for truth, be granted warrant. This mindless railing against allegory--merely because it's allegorical--without any willingness to consider whether it is able to meet the challenge of coherence, non-contradiction, congruity, unity, etc. is intellectually shameful. Worse, the dogmatic literalist refuses to even subject her own doctrine to these same tests, holding it instead as equal to truth itself, a grievous error.

Any Bible interpretation, to the degree it's true, will be able to pass the aforementioned truth tests at some acceptable level. To automatically parrot the tired, old, "...anybody can interpret scripture any way they want, claiming that it is figurative and the Bible can be made to prove almost anything." is a wholly unreasonable, dishonest and lazy stance. In fact, the more complex an interpretation gets, the more likely it will be to fall apart and begin to violate the aforementioned truth tests. I pointed this out to a Gnostic posting here, not to denigrate his position but to propose that there are legitimate tests which can be brought to bear on interpretation to test an interpretation's mettle. These criteria seem to rarely be brought to consideration on theology boards, for some reason.

There is no point in continuing this discussion further, your method is no holds barred, anything goes, whatever you decide scripture means, based on nothing but your assumptions/presuppositions. I've seen it too many times before and I am not following that pied piper anywhere.

Ad hominem attack. Fitting that you should end the discussion this way. Truth is, you have taken a completely closed minded approach to everything I've posted. You have no clue--nor do you care in the least--what my method is, what my theology is or to what degree it stands in relation to the truth. I continued posting above knowing the position you'd take. You're legion, Der Alter, you're all over the place out there and it's good and proper that readers should be able to see that there are Biblical Principles of the Salvation of All which are able to lay to rest most of the tensions placed on Scripture by your doctrine. God is awakening the earth to greater reality that He has always intended to save all His creation with the perfect love and justice that is His alone.

God bless you in your walk.

 

[he-man]

Now this is calling God a liar. I believe John 3:16 "whosever" not just some fortunate "chosen[/I]."

deleted:

 

[HIM_In_Me_In_HIM]

Still at it eh? Literalists vs. allegoricalists (<---my own, yes; makes me a "creationist"..tk u!). Nothing new under the sun. (or should it be "Son?")
Seemingly with He-man types, the only "victory" that can be obtained is...."getting the last word" (silence).

One day, it (silence) shall be so. For all whom are not "In HIM."

Until then.......(HimiH sings "Sunrise, Sunset. Sunrise, Sunset".........

Shalom Aleichem (to all who'll receive)

 

[he-man]

Still at it eh? Literalists vs. allegoricalists (<---my own, yes; makes me a "creationist"..tk u!). Nothing new under the sun. (or should it be "Son?")
Seemingly with He-man types, the only "victory" that can be obtained is...."getting the last word" (silence). One day, it (silence) shall be so. For all whom are not "In HIM." Until then.......(HimiH sings "Sunrise, Sunset. Sunrise, Sunset"......... Shalom Aleichem (to all who'll receive)

Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

 

[THIS]

I think that's the point. A better question is where in Scripture does it say that the fires transitioned from tangible to intangible?

Have you not heard of hell? You do know that people die and go somewhere don't you.

 

[THIS]

Are you saying that they are burning somewhere else?

Have you not heard of hell? Hell is a place without God. After people die a physical death, one might go to hell to wait for the Great White Throne Judgment; where they might also be thrown in the last hell, the lake of fire.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So since God is recorded in the Gospels comparing/contrasting the time spent in Hell with the time spent in Heaven, where did Jesus correct Himself and say that He really meant only one of those fates lasts forever?

Or does this view of an end to suffering in Hell include a belief that those in Heaven are eventually asked to leave/vacate as well?

 

[Phoneman777]

Have you not heard of hell? You do know that people die and go somewhere don't you.

I think this will answer both questions. Genesis 2:7 teaches that a soul comes into existence when the body + spirit of God comes together, be it man or beast. Eccl. 12:7 says that the reverse takes place at death, which leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the soul ceases to be. So, a person (aka soul) doesn't go anywhere at death, just the two parts that make up that person. References to a "people going somewhere" at death must be understood in light of this very important passage.

BTW, 1 Thess. 5:23, in which Paul says "body, soul, and spirit", can be understood in the light of Genesis 2:7 to simply mean, "I'm praying for you, part and whole." The only way we can insist that Paul is speaking of THREE parts of man in this verse, instead of the undeniably TWO parts of man in Genesis 2:7, is to ignore what Moses said in Genesis 2:7.

 

[Der Alte]

If you believe that faith consists entirely of parroting scripture without even an attempt at understanding, then there really is nothing more to say.

I don't "parrot" anything. My faith and beliefs are a result of quite a few decades of study formal and personal. I understand the scriptures in five languages, including Greek and Hebrew. I started learning Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and formally studied bot Biblical languages about 2 decades later. You might have missed all the credible, verifiable, lexical and historical evidence I have been posting.

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[Norah63]

Wait and we will all find out.

 

[THIS]

I think this will answer both questions. Genesis 2:7 teaches that a soul comes into existence when the body + spirit of God comes together, be it man or beast. Eccl. 12:7 says that the reverse takes place at death, which leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the soul ceases to be. So, a person (aka soul) doesn't go anywhere at death, just the two parts that make up that person. References to a "people going somewhere" at death must be understood in light of this very important passage.

BTW, 1 Thess. 5:23, in which Paul says "body, soul, and spirit", can be understood in the light of Genesis 2:7 to simply mean, "I'm praying for you, part and whole." The only way we can insist that Paul is speaking of THREE parts of man in this verse, instead of the undeniably TWO parts of man in Genesis 2:7, is to ignore what Moses said in Genesis 2:7.

You are badly mistaken.

Our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.

You are a soul sleep believer. You are someone who does not believe in the life of our spirits. You have what I call a doctrine of death.

The Old Testament is about earthy man. The New Testament is about what is spiritual.

 

[seeingeyes]

I don't "parrot" anything. My faith and beliefs are a result of quite a few decades of study formal and personal. I understand the scriptures in five languages, including Greek and Hebrew. I started learning Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and formally studied bot Biblical languages about 2 decades later. You might have missed all the credible, verifiable, lexical and historical evidence I have been posting.

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So what do you think about all of this?

 

[Der Alte]

So what do you think about all of this?

All of what? This thread?

 

[seeingeyes]

All of what? This thread?

About God and how He works.

 

[Viren]

No,

 

[Timothew]

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What do you think about this? Does this mean that we shouldn't talk to people who disagree? What if both sides are Christian, and they simply disagree about something, the fate of lost, for example? Should each side just shake the dust and leave town? Let's reason together.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are badly mistaken.

Our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.

You are a soul sleep believer. You are someone who does not believe in the life of our spirits. You have what I call a doctrine of death.

The Old Testament is about earthy man. The New Testament is about what is spiritual.

Here is where we differ: Genesis 2:7 defines the spirit as that which God breathes into a body to make it a living soul and upon death returns to the God Who gave it. It lives on after our death b/c it comes from the immortal God "Who only hath immortality" and returns to Him after we die.

Your definition of the spirit expands the Bible definition to include more than what is said - that it somehow takes on and incorporates some part or essence of the person to which it initially gave life; that it becomes a "semi-transparent, opaque, apparition that looks, sounds, and thinks like the dead person it previously inhabited". This begs the question: How it is possible that a thing that began down here can return to God up there if that thing was never up there with God to begin with? It's like claiming you can return to the moon. No amount of hermeneutical gymnastics can get around this monumental point.

Also, I'm interested to know where you get this idea that some change in Genesis 2:7 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 took place after the cross. I assure you, the idea is based on inference, not the Scriptures.

 

[jamie2014]

Our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.

Is that why Paul said we are mortal and we must put on immortality at Christ's coming?

Is that why Paul said eternal life is a gift from God, not something we already have innately?

If God created human beings as spirit beings then what is the purpose of the flesh? God through Ezekiel said that the soul that sins shall die. You evidently don't believe that if you believe humans are inherently immortal.

The Torah contrasts life and death with God saying choose life.