Is Hell Really Eternal?

[Phoneman777]

Is that why Paul said we are mortal and we must put on immortality at Christ's coming?

Is that why Paul said eternal life is a gift from God, not something we already have innately?

If God created human beings as spirit beings then what is the purpose of the flesh? God through Ezekiel said that the soul that sins shall die. You evidently don't believe that if you believe humans are inherently immortal.

The Torah contrasts life and death with God saying choose life.

When will someone offer an explanation as to how something that all agree came into existence down here is able to RETURN to God, if that thing was never up there with God to begin with? We are to comfort one another with the Blessed Hope of the resurrection, not foolish talk about "spirit people" going up to heaven to be with God at death.

 

[jamie2014]

When will someone offer an explanation how something that all agree came into existence down here is able to RETURN to God, if that thing was never up there with God to begin with?

For a person to live requires a spirit and a body. James defined death as the separation of spirit and body.

Humans can produce a natural body but they cannot produce spirit. Upon death the body will decompose and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

​

 

[timbo3]

The words "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" at Mark 9:44, 46 (not Luke 9) is not in the original writings, but is an addition put there by a later hand, most likely a repeat of Mark 9:48 by a scribe. Montgomery's Bible says that "verse 44 is lacking in most ancient manuscripts" as does William's New Testament, as does Weymouth's New Testament. The same went also for verse 46 in these Bibles.

These words that Jesus used at Mark 9:48 is in reference to Isaiah 66:24. There it reads: "And they will go out and look on the carcasses (not living people) of the men who rebelled against me; For the worms on them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished, and they will become something repulsive to all people.”(New World Translation)

Those who are interested in identifying what is "the truth" can see that at Isaiah 66 from which Jesus quoted, is speaking about "the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me (Jehovah)." These are ones who died (carcasses, Hebrew peger meaning "a carcass, whether of man or beast") because of rebelling against God, and thus seen as not fit for a proper burial, but in which the "worms" begin to help decompose the remains and whereby sulfur is continuously added to the trash that lay outside the southern wall of Jerusalem called the "Valley of Hinnom" so that everything there is totally consumed, nothing remaining.

Hence, Jesus was not teaching "eternal torment", but rather was showing the totality of destruction for those who rebel against God. He stressed the need to lose a symbolic "hand" or an "eye" if such was ' making you stumble '.(Mark 9:43, 47) That is why he said that "it is better for you to enter into life maimed than to go off with two hands into Ge·hen′na, into the fire that cannot be put out."(Mark 9:43)

Since the "hand" or the "eye" pictured that which we consider as very close to us, anything that we treasure but can cause us to "stumble", then likewise, the Greek word Gehenna (rendered as hell in the KJV) is also symbolic, meaning complete destruction and not eternal torment, for in the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem, no live persons were ever thrown there, only dead ones. Jesus reiterated this, saying that "everyone (who proves to be a rebel against Jehovah) must be salted with fire."(Mark 9:49)

To the common Jew, fire meant something was destroyed, having been completely burned up, in which it would be humanly impossible to reconstruct. So to Jesus audience of Jews, when he used the word "fire", they understood him as saying that whatever is burned by means of "fire", is completely rendered annihilated.

 

[Phoneman777]

For a person to live requires a spirit and a body. James defined death as the separation of spirit and body.

Humans can produce a natural body but they cannot produce spirit. Upon death the body will decompose and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

​

Amen. Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul. Body - Breath of Life = Dead Soul. How the idea that humans are "spirit beings that continue after death" came to be derived from what the Bible says about God's spirit - that it is simply that which makes dust of the earth alive and animate whether it be man or beast - is a mystery. Yet, this derivative is the foundation for such teachings that distorts the truth about the afterlife and encourages spiritualism and demonic deception. It makes God a liar and Satan speak the truth when he told Eve "Thou shalt not surely die."

 

[Norah63]

We are a spirit. We came down and as our spirit entered our body then we are a living soul.
Choices to make. Life to live. After our spirit leaves our body it goes back home again, where we came from. The soul makes us human, our body came from the earth.
Choose Jesus Christ for eternal joy!

 

[THIS]

Here is where we differ: Genesis 2:7 defines the spirit as that which God breathes into a body to make it a living soul and upon death returns to the God Who gave it. It lives on after our death b/c it comes from the immortal God "Who only hath immortality" and returns to Him after we die.

Your definition of the spirit expands the Bible definition to include more than what is said - that it somehow takes on and incorporates some part or essence of the person to which it initially gave life; that it becomes a "semi-transparent, opaque, apparition that looks, sounds, and thinks like the dead person it previously inhabited". This begs the question: How it is possible that a thing that began down here can return to God up there if that thing was never up there with God to begin with? It's like claiming you can return to the moon. No amount of hermeneutical gymnastics can get around this monumental point.

Also, I'm interested to know where you get this idea that some change in Genesis 2:7 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 took place after the cross. I assure you, the idea is based on inference, not the Scriptures.

Our spirits come from God. Our spirits have form.

I can prove to you our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.

I can prove everything that I say with scripture.

 

[THIS]

What do you think about this? Does this mean that we shouldn't talk to people who disagree? What if both sides are Christian, and they simply disagree about something, the fate of lost, for example? Should each side just shake the dust and leave town? Let's reason together.

Why then do you speak against those who believe differently than you?

You should treat other Christians better.

 

[THIS]

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[FONT=&quot]Is that why Paul said eternal life is a gift from God, not something we already have innately?

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[FONT=&quot]Paul does not say we do not have eternal life now.[/FONT]

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If God created human beings as spirit beings then what is the purpose of the flesh?

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[FONT=&quot]The Bible says we are flesh AND spirit, and the spirit we have has a form.[/FONT]
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Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]God through Ezekiel said that the soul that sins shall die. You evidently don't believe that if you believe humans are inherently immortal.

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[FONT=&quot]Our spirits make our bodies alive, and that is how we have a soul.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Our body dies, but our spirits do not die. Read Matthew 10:28 [/FONT]Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice that the Bible says man cannot kill the soul. Remember, the body is a soul because of the spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The Torah contrasts life and death with God saying choose life.

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[FONT=&quot]There is a physical death, and a spiritual death.[/FONT]

 

[THIS]

Here is where we differ: Genesis 2:7 defines the spirit as that which God breathes into a body to make it a living soul and upon death returns to the God Who gave it. It lives on after our death b/c it comes from the immortal God "Who only hath immortality" and returns to Him after we die.

Your definition of the spirit expands the Bible definition to include more than what is said - that it somehow takes on and incorporates some part or essence of the person to which it initially gave life; that it becomes a "semi-transparent, opaque, apparition that looks, sounds, and thinks like the dead person it previously inhabited". This begs the question: How it is possible that a thing that began down here can return to God up there if that thing was never up there with God to begin with? It's like claiming you can return to the moon. No amount of hermeneutical gymnastics can get around this monumental point.

Also, I'm interested to know where you get this idea that some change in Genesis 2:7 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 took place after the cross. I assure you, the idea is based on inference, not the Scriptures.

I can prove my beliefs easily with the scriptures.

 

[he-man]

Now this is calling God a liar. I believe John 3:16 "whosever" not just some fortunate "chosen[/I]."

You have to be chosen before you can see the words,"BELIEVE IN HIM" Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

If you BELIEVED in him you would not have to flee:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. .

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Got it now? NO Man can come to God unless he is first chosen and then he must Believe, if Christ so desires to reveal the truth to that person.
What happens to unbelievers is the Eternal Destruction of 2Thess 1:9.

So then, if you say everybody, then you are not to be believed.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

 

[Phoneman777]

I can prove my beliefs easily with the scriptures.

The Scriptures do not prove that we exist prior to entering a body - they prove the opposite:

1) In Ecclesiastes 4, Solomon says that a man that has died already is better off than a man who yet lives and still endures the suffering of this world, but then he says better yet is the man "which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun." If we exist already in heaven before we "come down to inhabit a body", why would Solomon say that a man that is not yet born is ignorant of what awaits him in this pathetic world? Does God hit us with an MIB flashy thingy before we leave heaven?

2) In the previous chapter, Solomon declares that the breath (spirit of life) of man and beast are one in the same, and then he asks "who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward (at death) and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward (at birth) to the earth? This suggests the whole issue is shrouded in mystery, yet some such as yourself claim to know more about the issue than Solomon. It's just best to stick with what is plainly revealed: Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul and Body - Breath of Life = Dead Soul.

 

[jamie2014]

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

The Greek for soul is psychē, which refers to the mind. The mind is made up of brain and spirit. The spirit comes from God and returns to God at death. James defines death as the separation of body (including the brain) and spirit.

A person's spirit survives death and is imprinted with a person's persona, who they were. At resurrection God is able to create a new body for a person and place within the new body the preserved spirit and the person is restored same as always but with a new body.

Paul said there ia a natural body (corruptible) and there is a spiritual body (incorruptible).

At Jesus' resurrection his natural body had not decayed and it was simply changed to incorruptible.

Anyone can kill a natural body but God can destroy both body and soul meaning the person will never live again. Their persona is forever gone.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

...snip
Anyone can kill a natural body but God can destroy both body and soul meaning the person will never live again. Their persona is forever gone.

And then how to see God also essentially saying while He walked here that it would be better for a person to have never existed than to face being "forever gone". The view expressed in the above quote regarding another comment He made regarding the damned makes His other statement gibberish. It is nonesense to say it would be better a person never existed than to face ceasing to exist. Everyone can think of things worse than ceasing to be.

 

[Timothew]

Everyone can think of things worse than ceasing to be.

So I you can conceive of eternal conscious torture then God can achieve it? Is this the power of "positive" thinking on a cosmic level?

I can see it on a church motivational poster:
HELL: If you can conceive it, God can achieve it.

 

[seeingeyes]

And then how to see God also essentially saying while He walked here that it would be better for a person to have never existed than to face being "forever gone". The view expressed in the above quote regarding another comment He made regarding the damned makes His other statement gibberish. It is nonesense to say it would be better a person never existed than to face ceasing to exist. Everyone can think of things worse than ceasing to be.

Honest question: Is this why you follow God? I mean, if you knew that hell would simply "burn you up" to nothing, would you walk away from your God?

 

[he-man]

And then how to see God also essentially saying while He walked here that it would be better for a person to have never existed than to face being "forever gone". The view expressed in the above quote regarding another comment He made regarding the damned makes His other statement gibberish. It is nonesense to say it would be better a person never existed than to face ceasing to exist. Everyone can think of things worse than ceasing to be.

It would be better for a person to never have existed as an evil person, than to face ceasing to exist for the rest of eternity!

That is why some may say if there is no other punishment, other than eternally ceasing to exist, why, then, should they worry about being evil, and not good. Those who do not understand the reality of eternal destruction, also do not comprehend what bliss the immortal shall share with Christ.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Of course, for some who are soldiers of the worlds military,, who had known the truth but the cares of the world drew them away thinking it is honorable to serve their mortal Army, and then they teach others things which are opposite of what God teaches, and try to use torment and immortal burning in Fire as torture, must think God is a beast and then they do not understand that the ones who killed our Christ, were soldiers of this world only following orders, and the Leaders were just like our President, and do not understand the words; Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What happens to unbelievers is the Eternal Destruction of 2Thess 1:9.

If you had BELIEVED in him then you would not try to flee unless you were evil:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 17:14 These [the Kings of the earth and their soldiers] shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. .

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

[jamie2014]

And then how to see God also essentially saying while He walked here that it would be better for a person to have never existed than to face being "forever gone".

Your statement is not biblical.

 

[seeingeyes]

There are plenty of people who wish they had never been born who don't even believe in hell or God or any of it. So claiming that annihilation "just isn't scary enough" is a silly argument.

 

[THIS]

The Scriptures do not prove that we exist prior to entering a body - they prove the opposite:

1) In Ecclesiastes 4, Solomon says that a man that has died already is better off than a man who yet lives and still endures the suffering of this world, but then he says better yet is the man "which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun." If we exist already in heaven before we "come down to inhabit a body", why would Solomon say that a man that is not yet born is ignorant of what awaits him in this pathetic world? Does God hit us with an MIB flashy thingy before we leave heaven?

2) In the previous chapter, Solomon declares that the breath (spirit of life) of man and beast are one in the same, and then he asks "who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward (at death) and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward (at birth) to the earth? This suggests the whole issue is shrouded in mystery, yet some such as yourself claim to know more about the issue than Solomon. It's just best to stick with what is plainly revealed: Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul and Body - Breath of Life = Dead Soul.

Who said anything about existing before we existed?

 

[Der Alte]

The words "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" at Mark 9:44, 46 (not Luke 9) is not in the original writings, but is an addition put there by a later hand, most likely a repeat of Mark 9:48 by a scribe. Montgomery's Bible says that "verse 44 is lacking in most ancient manuscripts" as does William's New Testament, as does Weymouth's New Testament. The same went also for verse 46 in these Bibles.

These words that Jesus used at Mark 9:48 is in reference to Isaiah 66:24. There it reads: "And they will go out and look on the carcasses (not living people) of the men who rebelled against me; For the worms on them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished, and they will become something repulsive to all people.”(New World Translation)

Those who are interested in identifying what is "the truth" can see that at Isaiah 66 from which Jesus quoted, is speaking about "the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me (Jehovah)." These are ones who died (carcasses, Hebrew peger meaning "a carcass, whether of man or beast") because of rebelling against God, and thus seen as not fit for a proper burial, but in which the "worms" begin to help decompose the remains and whereby sulfur is continuously added to the trash that lay outside the southern wall of Jerusalem called the "Valley of Hinnom" so that everything there is totally consumed, nothing remaining.

Hence, Jesus was not teaching "eternal torment", but rather was showing the totality of destruction for those who rebel against God. He stressed the need to lose a symbolic "hand" or an "eye" if such was ' making you stumble '.(Mark 9:43, 47) That is why he said that "it is better for you to enter into life maimed than to go off with two hands into Ge·hen′na, into the fire that cannot be put out."(Mark 9:43)

Since the "hand" or the "eye" pictured that which we consider as very close to us, anything that we treasure but can cause us to "stumble", then likewise, the Greek word Gehenna (rendered as hell in the KJV) is also symbolic, meaning complete destruction and not eternal torment, for in the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem, no live persons were ever thrown there, only dead ones. Jesus reiterated this, saying that "everyone (who proves to be a rebel against Jehovah) must be salted with fire."(Mark 9:49)

To the common Jew, fire meant something was destroyed, having been completely burned up, in which it would be humanly impossible to reconstruct. So to Jesus audience of Jews, when he used the word "fire", they understood him as saying that whatever is burned by means of "fire", is completely rendered annihilated.

This is the "truth" as disseminated by the WBTS and as believed by all their followers, without question. But here is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, according to the Jews before and during the time of Jesus.

Based on historical evidence, below, the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum and the above post, is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​