Is Hell Real?

[Your Brother In Christ]

My views - derived from Scripture, not merely my opinion - are easily seen at one location: the one I offered in my link. But, since you can't be bothered to simply click on a link, here's the whole enchilada cut and pasted to this thread (it's going to be rather long which is why I provided a link):

In Defense of the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell.

Increasingly these days I am encountering people who profess to be disciples of Christ - Christians - who deny the doctrine of Hell. More specifically, they deny the teaching of Scripture that the unrepentant wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment in Gehenna (as opposed to Hades or Sheol). The most common arguments against this doctrine are as follows:

1. Eternal conscious torment (ECT) is a monstrous, enormously disproportionate, punishment of human sin. Such a heinous punishment makes God a vicious and deeply cruel Being. Such a God is not revealed in Scripture, so ECT cannot be true. God is love and mercy; He is not a gleeful tormentor of the wicked.

2. If God does punish the wicked in Hell (Gehenna), it is only for a set period of time after which He annihilates them. It is the permanency of annihilation that is the "everlasting punishment," the "Second Death," of which Scripture speaks.

3. Hades is the "holding tank" of the dead; the intermediate place between earthly death and the Final Judgment that contains Abraham's Bosom for the saved person, or a place of fiery torment for the unregenerate wicked. Hades will be destroyed in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) and with it all the wicked who are contained in it.

4. The Bible uses words like "death," "die," "destroyed," and "perish" to describe the experience of the wicked in Hell. These clearly communicate annihilation, not ECT.

These are the four most common arguments I encounter against the doctrine of ECT in Hell. Here are biblical responses to each:

Argument 1. Of all the arguments that are put forward against ECT in Hell this is the most common. It also seems to be, for those who are proponents of it, the most powerful and obvious argument against ECT in Hell. Well, it is certainly the most emotionally engaging one. This is, I suspect, why it is such a popular argument. It resonates strongly with our emotional, negative gut-response toward the idea of Hell. Who wants to think there is a righteous, just and wrathful God who will punish severely and eternally the evil that we do? No one! It is so much more...comfortable to think of God as a divine Fluffy Bunny whose grace and mercy are greater than our sin. It is gratifying and a relief to think we can sin with impunity because God's love and forgiveness covers it all. Love Wins, people! Our sin is no biggie to God. What view of God could be more pleasant to sinners than this?

But is this a truly biblical view of God? Is this a biblical view of our sin and Hell? No, it isn't. It's not even close.

Why do we need to be saved in the first place? Well, the Bible tells us that "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." (1 Jn. 1:5) This is the way God has always been. Never has darkness had any part or place in Him. There has never been the slightest shadow of darkness in God, not the slightest particle of wickedness in Him. It is, in fact, His utter righteous purity (among other things) that makes Him God.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

We aren't like God in this regard at all. Quite the opposite, actually.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

It is because we are not like God in His holy perfection that we stand under His judgment and wrath. This is why we require salvation. But it is also why it is impossible for us to properly judge the heinousness of our sin. We are born into sin (Ps. 51:5); sin is our daily companion, our often cherished friend; we live among sinners and witness their sin every day; we see sin played out on t.v., in movies, and described in detail in books; we engage in sin we don't even recognize is sin! How, then, can we properly assess what is a proper punishment of our sin? We will always be too lenient in our judgment of our own wickedness, too soft toward the sin in which we are so thoroughly steeped and with which we are so at ease. Sin is our beloved brother and we cannot imagine him the vile, evil fiend God's punishment of him declares him to be.

So, when some think on the terrible punishment of Hell that God says our sin deserves, they wag their finger at God and declare, "No, this is too monstrous! Too severe! Our sin is finite, it is not so great it deserves the torment of Hell! You do evil in judging so harshly!" They only see their sin from their perspective; it can only be as they see it to be. Surely, God is over-reacting to judge sin with eternal torment in Hell. And in their haste to defend their wickedness, sinners impugn God's character. God must be at fault before Man is. What astonishing hubris! What a perfect example of the deep depravity of human wickedness!

If as a child I stole a cookie from my grandmother's cookie jar, the consequences would be commensurate with the crime: my grandmother would scold and perhaps make me do a chore. If I were to steal a bag of chips from the local grocery store, the theft being more serious, I might be arrested and charged with a misdemeanour. If I robbed a bank with a weapon and was caught, the robbery being very serious indeed, I could expect to be arrested, tried in court, and sentenced to prison for several years. In each instance of theft, the seriousness of the theft is revealed, in part, by the consequences, the punishment, enacted upon it. If, then, the punishment of my sin warrants eternal, conscious torment in Hell, my sin must be far, far more heinous than I'm inclined as a sinner to think it is!

Also, the notion that human sin is finite in scope ignores who our sin is always ultimately against: God Himself (Ps. 51:3, 4). There is no such thing as a finite sin when all sin is against an infinite God.

Not only is the protest sinners make against the severity of God's punishment of their sin an indication of how blind sinners are to the true awfulness of their sin, but it also exposes a low view of God's holiness. If we better understood His incredible purity and uprightness, as our forebears seem to do, we would not be so quick to rail against God's punishment of our sin. You see, the better we understand God's holiness, the better we understand our own moral impurity. And the better we see ourselves (by seeing God more clearly), the less inordinate God's severe but just and holy judgment of our sin seems.

Isaiah 6:5
5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The Lord of hosts."

Job 42:5-6
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Argument 2. God may judge the wicked with eternal conscious torment - but only for a finite time. Eventually, He will annihilate the wicked. Only the saved possess immortal life.

This is a more subtle argument against the biblical doctrine of ECT in Hell. It doesn't try to do the impossible and deny entirely the plain biblical descriptions of the punishment of the wicked in Hell. It simply suggests the punishment is temporary, ending finally in annihilation. There are some obvious issues with this thinking:

- The Bible indicates that there will be degrees of punishment on Judgment Day (Matt 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Lu. 12:47, 48; Jn. 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12). What would be the point of this if the ultimate end of all the wicked is the same: annihilation? This would be like punishing a thief with five lashes and a murderer with a thousand and then hanging them both!

- Annihilation escapes or ends punishment. One cannot be punished when one does not exist. Punishment requires consciousness. A tree, or rock, or broom handle cannot be punished. The torment that is the punishment of Hell, by definition, must be conscious torment. Annihilation, however, ends consciousness and thus ends punishment. Scripture, though, is clear that the punishment of Hell does not end but is eternal:

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Christ here offers a parallelism to his audience, a common device in Jewish philosophy and literature. He parallels the eternal life of the righteous with the everlasting punishment of the wicked. Implicit in the parallel is that the duration of the everlasting punishment of the wicked is as enduring as the eternal life of the righteous. Just as there will never be an end to the eternal life of the righteous, there will never be an end to the everlasting punishment of the wicked.

Argument 3. Hades will be destroyed in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) and with it all the wicked who are contained in it.

This idea rests upon the following passage:

Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is assumed that the "second death" means utter destruction or annihilation. Some argue that "death," by definition, means "annihilation." But is this so? Obviously, if the first death we endure is annihilation, then we can suffer no second death. The Scripture above is very clear, however, that the unrepentant wicked whose names are not found in the Book of Life are cast into Gehenna to suffer a second death. It is evident, therefore, that death does not mean annihilation; for if it did, the first death would preclude the second.

Argument 4. The Bible uses words like "death," "die," "destroyed," and "perish" to describe the experience of the wicked in Hell. These clearly communicate annihilation, not ECT.

It is a favorite tactic of those arguing for annihilation to restrict these terms to just one meaning: annihilation. Sometimes, they use the following verse in support of their contention that annihilation is intended when the Bible speaks of God's punishment of the wicked:

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Consider the following quotation from Ron Rhodes in his book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses":

The Greek word translated "destruction" in this verse is olethros,
and carries the meaning "sudden ruin", or "loss of all that gives worth
to existence." New Testament scholar Robert L. Thomas says that
olethros "does not refer to annihilation...but rather turns on the thought of
separation from God and loss of everything worthwhile in life..." (pg. 334)

The eminent Bible scholar W.E. Vine says of apollumi a Greek word often rendered as "destroy" in Scripture:

"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being but of well-being."

The Bible scholar Adam Clarke comments on 2 Thessalonians 1:9:

"What this everlasting destruction consists in we cannot tell. It is not annihilation,
for their being continues; and as the destruction is everlasting, it is an eternal
continuance and presence of substantial evil, and absence of all good..."

Of the same verse the Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown Bible Commentary notes:

"Cast out from the presence of the Lord is the idea at the root of eternal death,
the law of evil left to its unrestricted working, without one counteracting influence
of the presence of God, who is the source of all light and holiness (Isa 66:24 Mr 9:44)."

Many Bible scholars besides the ones cited above agree that "destruction" does not mean annihilation, particularly in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Of words like "perish," or "destroy," or "death," we find also in Scripture a range of meaning. Arguing, then, from a single narrow annihilationist definition of these words handles the word of God very poorly and produces a correspondingly poor understanding of its meaning.

I am the first to admit the doctrine of eternal, conscious torment in Hell is a bitter, frightening subject. I take no joy in defending it. That I must do so is a testament to how far and how easily the western evangelical Christian community is, in its intellectually and theologically juvenilized state, drifting into false teaching. Gone are the days when the average Christian knew their Bible and doctrines sufficiently to counter the sorts of falsehoods I have delineated and rebutted in this blog post. It will not be long, I think, if this drift continues, before the western evangelical Church abandons other basic doctrines of the faith and grows increasingly and inevitably apostate.

2 Timothy 4:2-4
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Thank you, for posting it on here and indulging me.

 

[DeaconDean]

There is a problem in the teaching of the church, historically that it emphasised fear of Hell and buying people out of purgatory through say masses etc.

And that is different than saying that once babies are baptized, they are to be counted among the "faithful"?

Scripture supports directly torture for people who support the beast and take its mark.
What is missed for this to be a step up in the general situation, it implies mortal man will just be destroyed after a set period of punishment.

First and foremost, I direct your attention to the following rule:

"Unorthodox Christian Theology

Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs. Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism"

Link to this rule.

That being said, we can proceed.

Taking your statement here:

"it implies mortal man will just be destroyed after a set period of punishment."

Can you tell me, just like with JW's, can you show me any benefit from being saved in the first place?

It boils down to this, if I knew 100% that if after 1 year, or 10 years, or 100 years, 1000 years, or even 10 millennia, that would "escape" eternal (αἰώνιος) punishment, what good is it to be saved to begin with? Man/woman, can endure any amount of pain, as long as they know, sooner or later the pain will stop. Classic example is a toothache.

If "αἰώνιος" does not mean "eternal" "time without end" and only means an "unspecified length of time" as JW's take it to mean, then the same thing absolutely MUST be said of salvation. Eternal life (Jn. 3:16) does not mean "eternal" only an "unspecified amount of time".

So there is support for both positions.

No, there is not.

A further moral problem is how can a child who is born but dies before they have reached the age of moral responsibility, should be punished and tortured for all eternity for something they could do nothing about, by not choosing life, by not choosing Christ, because they could not assent to this, and being held accountable for the position of their parents.

The alternative is these children enter heaven, as innocents.
So one is caught between universalism and cruelty.

Here again, no. According to scripture, what ultimately sends people to the lake of fire?

Not having their names written in the "Lambs book of Life".

Rejection of the Savior. Rather than debate a certain churches dogmas on that, I just point out that up to a certain time, children are held accountable to the parents. Parents will answer for their children. That said, those children dying at a very early stage, other than inheriting Adam's sin, have not sinned per se. They are covered by "grace". The prime example would all those trillions and trillions upon trillions who died, unsaved, prior to the cross. That is why Christ went to those in "prison" to preach to them.

And here, it is not up to me to know any of God's reasoning. I do not have the mind of God.

The other realisation is if heaven is about consistent relationship with Jesus which is impossible without new birth, the idea of entering heaven without this become absurd and meaningless.

That has not been an issue here.

It is not disimilar to the idea to believers accepting a rebellious God hating individual will enter heaven because they had faith at another point in their lives. If this is possible, then why not everyone, if God can turn rebellious sinners into redeemed saints against their conscious will without destroying them.

So the issues are not without problems if one wants to be honest with what one is buying into.

Here once more, this thread is not about any one particular theology like what is bolded. You wanna debate Calvinist doctrines, there is an area here just for that. "Debate with a Calvinist".

But the essential point is this:

If God must "destroy" individuals like you said: "mortal man will just be destroyed after a set period of punishment." there is no motivation to be saved to begin with. If the Greek word (αἰώνιος) aion, eternal, everlasting, does not mean that, then we cannot be sure it means "eternal" in Jn. 3:16!

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:10, 15 (KJV)

"καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων...καὶ εἴ τις οὐχ εὑρέθη ἐν τῇ βίβλῳ τῆς ζωῆς γεγραμμένος ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός." Rev. 20:10, 15 (GNT)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -Jn. 3:16 (KJV)

"Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον." -Jn. 3:16 (GNT)

You cannot have it both ways, eternal/everlasting life to believers and destruction, escapism, no eternity for unbelievers.

If (αἰώνιος) does imply that unbelievers will be destroyed after "x" amout of years, then just go out, live life however you want, there is no such thing as "everlasting punishment, (κόλασιν αἰώνιον). cf. Mt. 25:46

And, if it does not mean eternal, everlasting, then it cannot mean eternal when referenced to believers. If those unsaved will be destroyed, they have escaped everlasting punishment, then we must take the same Greek word to mean that after a year, or 10 years, or 100 years, or 1000 years, or 1000 millennia, eternal/everlasting life is limited to an "unspecified amount of time", and at some point, we'll "disappear" too.

Sorry, I aint buying it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[LightLoveHope]

And that is different than saying that once babies are baptized, they are to be counted among the "faithful"?



First and foremost, I direct your attention to the following rule:

"Unorthodox Christian Theology

Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs. Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism"

Link to this rule.

That being said, we can proceed.

Taking your statement here:

"it implies mortal man will just be destroyed after a set period of punishment."

Can you tell me, just like with JW's, can you show me any benefit from being saved in the first place?

It boils down to this, if I knew 100% that if after 1 year, or 10 years, or 100 years, 1000 years, or even 10 millennia, that would "escape" eternal (αἰώνιος) punishment, what good is it to be saved to begin with? Man/woman, can endure any amount of pain, as long as they know, sooner or later the pain will stop. Classic example is a toothache.

If "αἰώνιος" does not mean "eternal" "time without end" and only means an "unspecified length of time" as JW's take it to mean, then the same thing absolutely MUST be said of salvation. Eternal life (Jn. 3:16) does not mean "eternal" only an "unspecified amount of time".



No, there is not.



Here again, no. According to scripture, what ultimately sends people to the lake of fire?

Not having their names written in the "Lambs book of Life".

Rejection of the Savior. Rather than debate a certain churches dogmas on that, I just point out that up to a certain time, children are held accountable to the parents. Parents will answer for their children. That said, those children dying at a very early stage, other than inheriting Adam's sin, have not sinned per se. They are covered by "grace". The prime example would all those trillions and trillions upon trillions who died, unsaved, prior to the cross. That is why Christ went to those in "prison" to preach to them.

And here, it is not up to me to know any of God's reasoning. I do not have the mind of God.



That has not been an issue here.



Here once more, this thread is not about any one particular theology like what is bolded. You wanna debate Calvinist doctrines, there is an area here just for that. "Debate with a Calvinist".

But the essential point is this:

If God must "destroy" individuals like you said: "mortal man will just be destroyed after a set period of punishment." there is no motivation to be saved to begin with. If the Greek word (αἰώνιος) aion, eternal, everlasting, does not mean that, then we cannot be sure it means "eternal" in Jn. 3:16!

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:10, 15 (KJV)

"καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων...καὶ εἴ τις οὐχ εὑρέθη ἐν τῇ βίβλῳ τῆς ζωῆς γεγραμμένος ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός." Rev. 20:10, 15 (GNT)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -Jn. 3:16 (KJV)

"Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον." -Jn. 3:16 (GNT)

You cannot have it both ways, eternal/everlasting life to believers and destruction, escapism, no eternity for unbelievers.

If (αἰώνιος) does imply that unbelievers will be destroyed after "x" amout of years, then just go out, live life however you want, there is no such thing as "everlasting punishment, (κόλασιν αἰώνιον). cf. Mt. 25:46

And, if it does not mean eternal, everlasting, then it cannot mean eternal when referenced to believers. If those unsaved will be destroyed, they have escaped everlasting punishment, then we must take the same Greek word to mean that after a year, or 10 years, or 100 years, or 1000 years, or 1000 millennia, eternal/everlasting life is limited to an "unspecified amount of time", and at some point, we'll "disappear" too.

Sorry, I aint buying it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

There is a simple point I am making.
Revelations talks about torment for those who take the mark of the beast.
It is specifically called everlasting torment. (rev 14:11)

Now I am looking for something definitive that this is not something exclusive
to this group.
Destruction is taking something and making it so it no longer exists in that
form. It is also eternal.

I simply put this in Gods hands, and know He is the judge not I and I trust that
whatever He does is right. I merely am searching for definitions and clarity.

This theology has impacts on ideas such as are we eternal beings, born out of
a soul pool, or mortal being created from the earth. Some have taught becoming
a christian returns us to immortality, a true child of God.

The subject of hell is often so unbiblical, most have never really considered it, yet
we preach in part to be saving people from judgement and hell, so it is worthy of
consideration.

Can you answer why revelations emphasis the eternal torment of the beast worshippers,
or is this just a higher rank of torture than the ordinary torture of sinners?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Interesting argument, which I have never come across before

"Can you tell me, just like with JW's, can you show me any benefit from being saved in the first place?"

The above logic implies the only reason to accept Jesus is to avoid hell.
My answer to this, those who think like this do not know Jesus.

If God thought this made sense He would appear, threaten everyone and
they would jump ship. Why even have judgement, just accept Jesus is the
Son, died to save you, job done.

Following Jesus is about being like Him. Paul puts it like this
And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
1 Cor 15:49-51

We will be like Jesus, perfect, purified, Holy.

But we are also called to live a Holy, pure life.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 Thess 4:7

Until believers have begun to understand what this means, do they really
know what Jesus meant and is?

 

[DeaconDean]

Can you answer why revelations emphasis the eternal torment of the beast worshippers,
or is this just a higher rank of torture than the ordinary torture of sinners?

Matthew 25 tells us that the "everlasting punishment" is NOT LIMITED to only those who take the mark of the beast.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:..Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." -Mt. 25:31-34, 41-46 (KJV)

What we can gleen from your passages in Revelation is this: whoever takes the mark of the beast, is assured of "instant judgment".

We see this in Rev. 19:20:

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

They (those in open rebellion against God, the beast, the false prophet, those that take the mark) will NOT appear at the great white throne judgment. Instant damnation!

Not even Satan, Lucifer, "that old Dragon" goes in Rev. 19:20. That is reserved until later.

And here again:

Destruction is taking something and making it so it no longer exists in that
form. It is also eternal.

If the evil wicked are destroyed, wiped out of existence, so that it no longer exists, then they have "escaped" eternal/everlasting punishment.

Like I said, if I knew 100% that there was no risk of suffering eternal punishment in the lake of fire, then I'd live my life like there was no tomorrow. Sin all I want, do anything I want, after all, after an unspecified amount time, I'll escape the "Lake of Fire". There is no fear of suffering for all eternity. If according to you, only happens to those who take the mark of the beast, when he appears, if I live to see it, all I have to do is refuse, suffer whatever death the beast decides, and move on.

Its just that simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Interesting argument, which I have never come across before

"Can you tell me, just like with JW's, can you show me any benefit from being saved in the first place?"

The above logic implies the only reason to accept Jesus is to avoid hell.
My answer to this, those who think like this do not know Jesus.

If God thought this made sense He would appear, threaten everyone and
they would jump ship. Why even have judgement, just accept Jesus is the
Son, died to save you, job done.

Following Jesus is about being like Him. Paul puts it like this
And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
1 Cor 15:49-51

We will be like Jesus, perfect, purified, Holy.

But we are also called to live a Holy, pure life.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 Thess 4:7

Until believers have begun to understand what this means, do they really
know what Jesus meant and is?

I used that exact same argument to a JW.

If the doctrine of "Annihilationism" is true as Jehovah's Witness teach, what benefit is there is believing in Jesus to begin with?

Again, if my sins only causes me to go to that place, then after "x" amount of years, I burn up into nothing, having my sin debt paid for, why bother to be saved? Just live your life as you want?

In fact, if "eternal" does not mean "eternal" then by what logic can one justify saying believing gives you eternal life, yet unbelieving gives you "limited" time in that place?

To this day, those two JW's who came to my house to witness to me, have not been back.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I used that exact same argument to a JW.

If the doctrine of "Annihilationism" is true as Jehovah's Witness teach, what benefit is there is believing in Jesus to begin with?

Again, if my sins only causes me to go to that place, then after "x" amount of years, I burn up into nothing, having my sin debt paid for, why bother to be saved? Just live your life as you want?

In fact, if "eternal" does not mean "eternal" then by what logic can one justify saying believing gives you eternal life, yet unbelieving gives you "limited" time in that place?

To this day, those two JW's who came to my house to witness to me, have not been back.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hi Deacon,

You summarise the problem.
Where is the love? Where is the focus?
Avoiding punishment or walking powerfully in love and victory over sin and
death.

The good news is the Kingdom of God is here, and not only is this freedom
from judgement it is resolution of sin in ones life and living in love and truth.

The Methodist revival was founded on walking in purity and holiness through
confession of sins and walking Jesus's way.

My impression is people are no longer attracted to avoiding hell, but rather
feel safe and secure in wealth and comfort, so do not need religious reassurance
that everything will be alright.

But the gospel has always been about love and life in the community today,
through Jesus and not pie in the sky when you die. Little wonder chuches
have declined when terror and security were the message they only sold.

 

[AlexDTX]

I think you mean that demons will not be tormenting in hell, they will be tormented right along with the unbelieving... I think that's what you meant based upon the last part of your post.

You could say that although that was not what I specifically meant. There are some in Hell who are chained up, but they are not in torment. Torment will come when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is not Hell. Note what John says:

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If hell is the lake of fire how is hell cast in upon itself? Hell is jail, and all who died without Christ are in jail (Hell) waiting for the White Throne judgment, after which they will all be thrown into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his demons for everlasting torment.

Meanwhile, all other demons are still here on Earth with us in the spirit dimension still causing what mischief they can.

 

[DeaconDean]

But the gospel has always been about love and life in the community today, through Jesus and not pie in the sky when you die. Little wonder chuches have declined when terror and security were the message they only sold.

Not that I disagree, but I also remember a time not very distant, where preachers across this country used to preach "hell fire and brimstone". This was/is referred to as "The Second Great Awaking". I was saved during this era.

I would send you a link, not arguing, but confirming all that I have said, and you too.

All I ask is that you ignore who it is. (Arthur W. Pink, a well known Calvinist).

Keep an open mind please.

Arthur W. Pink, Eternal Punishment

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[RaymondG]

I'm asking, do you know where the exact physical place that we call the heaven that God lives in, is? Does that "place" still exist? Can you see angels and demons? Do they still exist somewhere or did they get miraculously lifted out when Jesus (who cast many out as if they werereal, though couldn't be seen) was lifted up into heaven? Can you see God on His Throne? Certainly if there is a Throne it must be a real physical place that we can see right now, using your logic, right? What John saw in His vision certainly looked like a real physical place. Why can't we see it now? Jesus painted a picture in Luke 16 of the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham. Was that just a convenient story used to teach or was he speaking about a place that really existed? When Jesus recommended someone cutting off or gouging out body parts, rather than "going to Gehenna:into the fire that never shall be quenched" (Mar 9:43, for example) Was He just using a vivid imagination to scare people into cutting off body parts? When Jesus referred to the sheep and the goats--neither of which realized they were doing something to/for Jesus, He spoke of the sheep going to everlasting life and the goats "going away into everlasting punishment." (Matt 25:46) Where is that? Where is the New Jerusalem and this new heaven and new earth? You certainly can't see it now. Does that mean it doesn't exist? How about the pit where satan will be held? Do you know where that is? Does that mean it doesn't exist? How about the lake of fire that more than one person is going to be cast into--as if it was a collection point for those not written in the Lamb's book of life, not just a personal nightmare inflicted in one's mind only for those who believe in it? I would argue most people who go to Gehenna don't think it exists. They are calling God a liar. And, when they find out that they are the ones who believed a lie (about Gehenna not being real), there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who go there, just like Jesus shared in the story of the rich man and Lazarus and many other places in His short time here.

you have too many assumptions. What would it prophet anyone for me to tell you that I can see the things that you assume it impossible for one to have seen? Wouldnt that just be one more thing to add to your list of things to believe or dismiss?

Children rarely come to you with a lot of assumptions before asking you questions. And except we become as little children we can in no wise enter the kingdom.

I find no fault in anything that you wish to believe.

 

[food4thought]

Okay so I think you have half of it correct. People in hell will forever be stained and corrupted by sin. That part is correct. HOWEVER you are missing out on the justice component of God. Every sin MUST BE PUNISHED. "The wages of sin is death." This is not some passive punishment but rather an active punishment that lasts forever.

Revelation 14:9-11


If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

So this person will be actively tormented in the presence of God and angels. I do not believe that hell is separation from God. I believe that God will be somewhat present but only in wrath and indignation.

There is no "test" of purity in hell referenced anywhere in the Bible so I don't know where you get that from.

The test for purity comes from the literal meaning of the word translated as "torment" in the passage you quoted. The word in Greek is basonizo (Strong's G928) , taken from the word basonos (Strong's G931). Basonos is the Greek word for a touchstone, which is used in metal working to test the refined metal for purity after it is taken from the furnace. Basonizo literally means "to be tried against the touchstone". Now it is true that this word became commonly used to refer to the Roman authority's practice of torture to elicit a confession, but it's literal meaning is based upon the metal working practice. In the context of Revelation 14, where the idea of fire is present, I think that the original meaning of the word is implied.

Hope this helps...

 

[DeaconDean]

You could say that although that was not what I specifically meant. There are some in Hell who are chained up, but they are not in torment. Torment will come when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is not Hell. Note what John says:

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If hell is the lake of fire how is hell cast in upon itself? Hell is jail, and all who died without Christ are in jail (Hell) waiting for the White Throne judgment, after which they will all be thrown into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his demons for everlasting torment.

Meanwhile, all other demons are still here on Earth with us in the spirit dimension still causing what mischief they can.

I have to agree.

The Greek word that describes that particular place "Tartarus" is a "special place" reserved only for a certain class of fallen angels.

I have read speculations from the ECF's as to why these are separate from all others. But they do make a valid, rather, a good argument.

These particular "fallen angels" perhaps, when Satan/Lucifer rebelled in heaven, whatever they did, was so bad, they were not even allowed to become one of Lucifers "demons". Whatever they did, was so bad, that there is a special judgment reserved for them

I'm not saying its true, I'm not saying its wrong. I'm saying it is as good an explanation as I've ever read.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[food4thought]

The book of Enoch even references about "punishment angels" and those are angels specifically created by God to torment people in hell forever. I do not know if this is true or not but it is an interesting concept.

The book of Enoch is useful for discovering what 1st century Jews thought of the passage in Genesis 6, and a few other things (see Jude), but it is not an inspired book.

 

[Hawkins]

I have heard that many Christians do not believe that hell is real. I found this to be absurd, but I am open to hearing both sides of the argument. So that is what has lead me to proposing this question, is Hell real?
If it is or is not please explain.

P.S. I for one do believe it exist. Sorry for the pun in the poll but is just too much for me to resist.

Hell is a fundamental Pharisaic concept adapted by the Jews in majority back in Jesus' days. So the point is has Jesus Himself corrected this once dominating concept. The answers seems to be No.

Matthew 25:41 (NIV2011)
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

In Jewish concepts, hell is eternal and soul is immortal. When Jesus said the above, He was applying the Pharisaic concept of immortal soul and eternal hell.

The above verse actually matches the same concept 1st century Jewish historian Josephus (a Pharisee) tried to explain what it is to the Greeks.

Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment


Is God cruel in this case? I don't think so. I believe that whoever in hell is in a permanent separation from God. God on the other hand is the only source of good. Those in hell will no longer with the same conscience for them to be called humans. They are no longer humans but zombies after losing their conscience and humanity.

 

[food4thought]

You could say that although that was not what I specifically meant. There are some in Hell who are chained up, but they are not in torment.

No one, angel or human, is in hell yet.

Torment will come when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is not Hell. Note what John says:

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This is an unfortunate mistranslation of the KJV. All the modern translations correct this error:

Revelation 20:14 NASB Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14 NKJV Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 NRSV Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

Revelation 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

If hell is the lake of fire how is hell cast in upon itself? Hell is jail, and all who died without Christ are in jail (Hell) waiting for the White Throne judgment, after which they will all be thrown into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his demons for everlasting torment.

Hell is the lake of fire, and Hades is the "jail" where the unsaved dead are held until the final judgement, after which Hades will be tossed into hell along with those who are still in it.

Meanwhile, all other demons are still here on Earth with us in the spirit dimension still causing what mischief they can.

Agreed.

 

[DeaconDean]

Hell is a fundamental Pharisaic concept adapted by the Jews in majority back in Jesus' days. So the point is has Jesus Himself corrected this once dominating concept. The answers seems to be No.

I disagree.

Now, it is true that our Greek word "Ἅιδης" is the Greek equivalent for "sheol". It traces its roots back to one of the first references (Job. 11:8, if you accept the notion that Job was written before the Torah), and if not, then back to Numbers 16:33.

The MT renders that word "pit" but it also renders it "grave". (Link to the definition)

But we absolutely must not say that it means "grave" where a dead body is buried. There is an entirely different word for that.

The earthly place where a dead body is placed is: "qeburah" (keb-oo-raw'). We get our NT word "sepulchre" from it. (cf. Deut. 34:6; Mt. 27:60)

Also, in Isa. 14:15, the same Hebrew word is given two different renderings, "hell" and "pit". And Isaiah was written some 600 years before the Pharisees showed up as a separate and distinctive group.

The concept of "hell", "pit", "sheol", the place of the undead, where the soul goes after death, is not an idea that came from the Pharisees of Jesus' days. Actually it predates the Pharisees by some 3500 years.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Not that I disagree, but I also remember a time not very distant, where preachers across this country used to preach "hell fire and brimstone". This was/is referred to as "The Second Great Awaking". I was saved during this era.

I would send you a link, not arguing, but confirming all that I have said, and you too.

All I ask is that you ignore who it is. (Arthur W. Pink, a well known Calvinist).

Keep an open mind please.

Arthur W. Pink, Eternal Punishment

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thanks for this.
I have an open mind. Coming to Christ, conviction of sin and knowing judgement is coming is the first steps of salvation. I would preach this as well.

Core to the discussion is what is mortality, sin and judgement.
The Lake of Fire sits within this, and the reason God created us.
So a good balanced position matters.

I think God holiness effects us so badly because we are often so
fractured and contradictatory. I see this as the true eternal challenge
that Jesus came to heal and resolve of which sin is the main symptom.

 

[Neogaia777]

I have heard that many Christians do not believe that hell is real. I found this to be absurd, but I am open to hearing both sides of the argument. So that is what has lead me to proposing this question, is Hell real?
If it is or is not please explain.

P.S. I for one do believe it exist. Sorry for the pun in the poll but is just too much for me to resist.

Hell is real... Eternal suffering, sorrow, misery, anguish, ect, never any relief from it, ect... But, "What is Hell...?" Is it a literal lake with or of literal fire?, or is it something else...?

I have my own take on this, and if you wish me to share it, just ask...

God Bless!

 

[DeaconDean]

Hell is a fundamental Pharisaic concept adapted by the Jews in majority back in Jesus' days. So the point is has Jesus Himself corrected this once dominating concept. The answers seems to be No.

Back reading, I see where this comes from:

"The sin suggested by the context is not the sin of pride, but a sin against nature. The reference, therefore, is taken to be to the Jewish idea that amatory passion is not limited to the creatures of earth, and that some angels, yielding to the spell of the beauty of the daughters of men, forsook their own kingdom, and entered unto unnatural relations with them. The Jewish belief is seen in the story of Asmodeus in the Book of Tobit; it is found by Josephus (who has been followed by not a few modern interpreters) in Genesis 6:1-4; and it is given with special distinctness in the Book of Enoch."

Pulpit Commentary on 2 Pet. 2:4

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hawkins]

I disagree.

Now, it is true that our Greek word "Ἅιδης" is the Greek equivalent for "sheol". It traces its roots back to one of the first references (Job. 11:8, if you accept the notion that Job was written before the Torah), and if not, then back to Numbers 16:33.

I simply quoted what Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 and what Josephus the Pharisee said in his explanation of Hades to the Greeks. They both used the same Pharisaic concepts (as Josephus recorded in his works).

If you are not disagreeing with Jesus, then you need to read Josephus' works to disagree with him.