Is Heaven beyond time, or is only God?

[nightmares]

Satan is already doomed & he knows it. There is nothing he can do to prevent the end that awaits him & he knows it as he can not be forgiven for his sins. As such when he is given free rein for a short while he will use it to deceive as many people as possible. Not because he has too or is compelled in some mysterious way or because he thinks it will enable him to escape his doom in some way, he knows he can't so he goes out with a bang because he wants to & chooses to under his own free will.

So that is one prediction anyone could have made, no genius required, not even seeing the future required, its a 'well duh!' prediction.

So you agree it is predetermined since you say Satan is doomed and there is nothing he can do to stop it

Well enough. Why should billions suffer because of one fallen angel

 

[Sorn]

So you agree it is predetermined since you say Satan is doomed and there is nothing he can do to stop it

Well enough. Why should billions suffer because of one fallen angel

Only in the sense that if you commit a crime that has a jail term associated with it & you get caught then its a certainty that you will go to jail.
So Satan sinned when he rebelled against God before there even was an earth or people. At that time (when he rebelled) it was a certainty that he would eventually be cast into hell & there was nothing he could do about it.
So given that what are you talking about in this post??, what could he have read, the book of revelation did not even exist when he rebelled against God & his rebellion against God had nothing to do with Earth:

 

[nightmares]

Are you saying he had no opportunity to read the book of Revelation in the last 2,000 years

 

[Sorn]

Are you saying he had no opportunity to read the book of Revelation in the last 2,000 years

There is nothing in the book of revelation about himself that he didn't already know before it was written is what i'm saying.

 

[nightmares]

So why would anyone decide to go ahead with a scheme that has been leaked to the intended victims and is doomed to failure

 

[Sorn]

So why would anyone decide to go ahead with a scheme that has been leaked to the intended victims and is doomed to failure

what scheme??

 

[nightmares]

what scheme??

Any scheme

It could be Satan's scheme or a scheme to rob a bank or a scheme to take over the world or a scheme to get rich on a rigged sports game

 

[Sorn]

Any scheme

It could be Satan's scheme or a scheme to rob a bank or a scheme to take over the world or a scheme to get rich on a rigged sports game

In this context though, specifically, whats the scheme you are referring to?

 

[Sorn]

In case you haven't understood, whats the scheme in the book of Revelation??

 

[Diamond7]

knowing the end of all things and only He shares this attribute.

God declares the end from the beginning then He watches over HIs word to perform what He said He would do. Isaiah 46:10 Jeremiah 1:12

 

[jamiec]

We know the Word of God is true because of prophecy. It's our greatest proof the bible is true. God does nothing without announcing it through a prophet first.

We also know he is beyond time, outside of it, in another dimension so to speak and we also know he is all knowing, knowing the end of all things and only He shares this attribute.

Some people also say there is no time in heaven. If there is no time in heaven, does that mean anyone in heaven can see the future? I'd think this not to be, since that would mean anyone in heaven could give prophesy so to speak and we know, knowing all things is an attribute only God has.

Does this mean there is time in heaven, a different kind of time? Or perhaps time is meaningless and therefore only God can travel between Earth time and the non time of heaven, and pierce the veil so to speak, not unlike how only Jesus was deemed worthy to open the scroll in Revelation.

Time is connected to space and the bible also says the heavens will be rolled up as a scroll, so perhaps even though there is no time in heaven, only the Father can access the scroll of time so speak, not to mention, even if there is no time in heaven, surely no created thing can know everything for being limited, but how about seeing the end of all things? Does one need to know everything to see the end of all things, or what about seeing just a limited number of things?

I argue both of these things are attributed to God, knowing all things, AND seeing the end of all things, aka, seeing the future, therefore, even if there is no time in heaven, the heavenly host, or even people in heaven, somehow can't peer into the veil of the future, but someone only the present, otherwise can any angel or the souls mentioned in Revelation, can never see the Earth in the present or future.

In short, can only God see anything in the future? If heaven is beyond time, is there any access to Earth time for angels in the 3rd heaven?

I guess, perhaps Jesus is the link between Earth time and the "Beyond Time-ness" of Heaven. Or perhaps, as Paul said, the 3rd heaven, maybe the how angels access the present Earth time is from the second Heaven? Thereby would this preserve Heaven being truly beyond time, yet having angels have the ability to access the present in Earth Time, but not the future.

Perhaps God has the ability also to sync up the non time of Heaven and Earth time according to his plan of Redemption in the book of revelation where the souls are asking God, how long until they are avenged. They would need to be somehow synced up to Earth time in a realm beyond time.

Wonderful idea, but a little presumptuous I fear. May the Lord have mercy and protect me from any sin of presumption.

Maybe the Incarnation and Ascension give us some clues.

We have this, in 1 Kings 8.27:
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built?"

1 Kings 8:27 - Solomon's Prayer of Dedication

But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.

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Topical Bible: God: Fills Heaven and Earth

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and also from Jeremiah 23:
"23“Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD"

Jeremiah 23 ESV

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And,

15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together………

Colossians 1 BSB

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An author who "sub-creates" a world, or a universe, "contains" it, and all that happens in it, within his imagination and understanding - within his soul, of which those are both faculties. And he "descends into" it, not in the body, but by the power of his imaginative sympathy with it. Many millions of centuries may pass within the imagined, sub-created, Secondary World or universe, while a few years, or less, may pass in the Primary World in which the human author lives. Beings in the Secondary World, belonging by nature to that world, would have no means of access to the Primary World in which the author lived.

Something like that, is what happened at the Incarnation. The God Whom the heaven of heavens cannot contain, in Whom all created things hold together, was - in a manner - contained by one of His own creations, when He was conceived in her. He contained her who in a manner contained Him; which anticipates His Ascension "beyond" time and space; and her presence "in Him" as a member of His Mystical Body, the Church; and, at the close of her earthly life, her Assumption to Him in body and in soul.

In the sacramental life of the Church on Earth, this presence of God in His creation, and of creatures in Him, is continued. Every conversion of a soul is an instance of this mutual indwelling, of man by God (for the initiative is always God's), and of God by man. Christ is in us, that we may be in Christ.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Isaiah 9:6 says Jesus is the Father of Eternity. The Name I AM indicates He is above and transcends time. The ever present? I think paradise is in time and Heaven is where God is transcendent and from where He created time and eternity. Linear time, as much an invention and creation as water and we look out from it like fish to Heaven, the land so to speak. Our bodies have histories to be covered and saturated in Christ's blood but the soul and the spirit will be perfected and will no longer have any faults in their history.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The bible says nothing about us not experiencing time in eternity. We are not like God & never will be in that sense. He may be outside of time but we are not. You can be sure that one thing of which there will be a limitless supply of in eternity is time. Its the hallmark of eternity, time, in eternity, it never runs out.

2 Peter 3:8 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

To be in Heaven is to be with God. So, God has no time, neither do the souls in Heaven.

Time is only relevant to the mortal here in this life, where time has a beginning and end.

 

[Sorn]

2 Peter 3:8 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

To be in Heaven is to be with God. So, God has no time, neither do the souls in Heaven.

Time is only relevant to the mortal here in this life, where time has a beginning and end.

God is not at war with time, He is at war with sin. That is what won't exist in eternity but time definitely will.
You can't have sequence without time, sequence implies time, as in it will be possible to measure one set of activities in relation to another set of activities, which is how we measure time.
If everything happens at once then its not a sequence, that's stuff happening simultaneously, (another time related term btw). You can't have A cause B but have A & B happen at the same time.

Just for clarity, while God may be outside our timeline, and maybe even above heavens timeline, heaven, angels etc all have a timeline, possibly even God himself, but that does not mean He changes (unless He wants to)

There was a time before God created anything and a time after
There was a time before angels and a time after
There was a time before Satan and a time after
there was a time before Satan rebelled and a time after
there was a time before a third of angels sinned and a time after
There was a time before a war in heaven and a time after
there was a time before the Word created the world (universe) and a time after
There was a time before the angels rejoiced at God's creation of the world and a time after
There was a time before the creation of man and a time after
there was a time before Jesus was born as a human and a time after
there was a time before Jesus crucifixion & resurrection and a time after
There was a time before Jesus's ascension to heaven and a time after
There was a time before Jesus went to prepare the 'mansions' for us and a time after
There is a time before Jesus leaves heaven to return to earth and a time after

Most of the things in that list have a heavenly component or occur in heaven. There was a time before them & a time after them so time does exist in heaven.

In heaven, as now, if you have so much as a thought, there will be a time before that thought & a time after that thought.
In eternity, we won't age or decay (not that time causes that, it doesn't) but there will still be time, an endless amount of it .

Lastly, don't overlook Revelation 22:2, in the chapter describing the new eternal state. What word do we find there, in the very verses on eternity: the word month - a very much TIME based term.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

God is not at war with time, He is at war with sin. That is what won't exist in eternity but time definitely will.
You can't have sequence without time, sequence implies time, as in it will be possible to measure one set of activities in relation to another set of activities, which is how we measure time.
If everything happens at once then its not a sequence, that's stuff happening simultaneously, (another time related term btw). You can't have A cause B but have A & B happen at the same time.

Just for clarity, while God may be outside our timeline, and maybe even above heavens timeline, heaven, angels etc all have a timeline, possibly even God himself, but that does not mean He changes (unless He wants to)

There was a time before God created anything and a time after
There was a time before angels and a time after
There was a time before Satan and a time after
there was a time before Satan rebelled and a time after
there was a time before a third of angels sinned and a time after
There was a time before a war in heaven and a time after
there was a time before the Word created the world (universe) and a time after
There was a time before the angels rejoiced at God's creation of the world and a time after
There was a time before the creation of man and a time after
there was a time before Jesus was born as a human and a time after
there was a time before Jesus crucifixion & resurrection and a time after
There was a time before Jesus's ascension to heaven and a time after
There was a time before Jesus went to prepare the 'mansions' for us and a time after
There is a time before Jesus leaves heaven to return to earth and a time after

Most of the things in that list have a heavenly component or occur in heaven. There was a time before them & a time after them so time does exist in heaven.

In heaven, as now, if you have so much as a thought, there will be a time before that thought & a time after that thought.
In eternity, we won't age or decay (not that time causes that, it doesn't) but there will still be time, an endless amount of it .

Lastly, don't overlook Revelation 22:2, in the chapter describing the new eternal state. What word do we find there, in the very verses on eternity: the word month - a very much TIME based term.

Time is only relevant for us mortals. We measure time by the earth's rotation which is only relevant while we're on this earth.

God is outside of time as we know it, as Scripture says.

 

[Sorn]

Time is only relevant for us mortals. We measure time by the earth's rotation which is only relevant while we're on this earth.

God is outside of time as we know it, as Scripture says.

it also clearly says in Revelation 22:2 that time will be part of experience in eternity.

Also, watch this for another viewpoint:

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Revelation was written by a mortal given to a mortal according to his own cognitive ability.

What John saw and wrote was according to what he could understand at the time. Time was
provided according to earthly time as it involved the end of the world.

Fact is, Revelation was almost not included as part of the New Testament Canon, as the Church leaders
thought it would be misunderstood. They were right, it has been misunderstood for 2000 years.

 

[d taylor]

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Heaven is where the time takes place. The sun, moon and stars moving over the earth, record each day that passes. That was one of their reasons for being created.

That is how the long day of Joshua 10 came about God stopped the sun and moon from going down. So basically time stopped that day.

 

[Sorn]

Revelation was written by a mortal given to a mortal according to his own cognitive ability.

What John saw and wrote was according to what he could understand at the time. Time was
provided according to earthly time as it involved the end of the world.

Fact is, Revelation was almost not included as part of the New Testament Canon, as the Church leaders
thought it would be misunderstood. They were right, it has been misunderstood for 2000 years.

The entire bible was written by mortals so by your logic everything they say about God is also suspect. If the bible is guided by God then the book of revelation WAS meant to be there & what is says is relevant & the sneak peak of eternity that we get has TIME in it & glory to God for doing that, Yay !

 

[Sorn]

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Heaven is where the time takes place. The sun, moon and stars moving over the earth, record each day that passes. That was one of their reasons for being created.

That is how the long day of Joshua 10 came about God stopped the sun and moon from going down. So basically time stopped that day.

No, God did not stop time, he may have stopped the Earth from orbiting the Sun for a while & likewise compensated for any undesirable effects of too much sun in one place but that's all He had to do.