Is Heaven beyond time, or is only God?

[Holy Universe]

We know the Word of God is true because of prophecy. It's our greatest proof the bible is true. God does nothing without announcing it through a prophet first.

We also know he is beyond time, outside of it, in another dimension so to speak and we also know he is all knowing, knowing the end of all things and only He shares this attribute.

Some people also say there is no time in heaven. If there is no time in heaven, does that mean anyone in heaven can see the future? I'd think this not to be, since that would mean anyone in heaven could give prophesy so to speak and we know, knowing all things is an attribute only God has.

Does this mean there is time in heaven, a different kind of time? Or perhaps time is meaningless and therefore only God can travel between Earth time and the non time of heaven, and pierce the veil so to speak, not unlike how only Jesus was deemed worthy to open the scroll in Revelation.

Time is connected to space and the bible also says the heavens will be rolled up as a scroll, so perhaps even though there is no time in heaven, only the Father can access the scroll of time so speak, not to mention, even if there is no time in heaven, surely no created thing can know everything for being limited, but how about seeing the end of all things? Does one need to know everything to see the end of all things, or what about seeing just a limited number of things?

I argue both of these things are attributed to God, knowing all things, AND seeing the end of all things, aka, seeing the future, therefore, even if there is no time in heaven, the heavenly host, or even people in heaven, somehow can't peer into the veil of the future, but someone only the present, otherwise can any angel or the souls mentioned in Revelation, can never see the Earth in the present or future.

In short, can only God see anything in the future? If heaven is beyond time, is there any access to Earth time for angels in the 3rd heaven?

I guess, perhaps Jesus is the link between Earth time and the "Beyond Time-ness" of Heaven. Or perhaps, as Paul said, the 3rd heaven, maybe the how angels access the present Earth time is from the second Heaven? Thereby would this preserve Heaven being truly beyond time, yet having angels have the ability to access the present in Earth Time, but not the future.

Perhaps God has the ability also to sync up the non time of Heaven and Earth time according to his plan of Redemption in the book of revelation where the souls are asking God, how long until they are avenged. They would need to be somehow synced up to Earth time in a realm beyond time.

Wonderful idea, but a little presumptuous I fear. May the Lord have mercy and protect me from any sin of presumption.

 

[Sorn]

The bible says nothing about us not experiencing time in eternity. We are not like God & never will be in that sense. He may be outside of time but we are not. You can be sure that one thing of which there will be a limitless supply of in eternity is time. Its the hallmark of eternity, time, in eternity, it never runs out.

 

[Holy Universe]

I was wondering about that. I'm aware some people say heaven is outside of time, but indeed wonder if that is actually a biblical concept.

Are you 100% certain there being no time in heaven is not a biblical idea? This would make things much easier to understand as their would be no discrepancy.

When people say there is no time in Heaven so God can see all future, in some since, it suggest anyone in Heaven can see the future, and thus prophesy.

In which case, it indirectly attacks the exclusivity of prophecy from God only, thus our strongest proof of God, imo.

 

[trophy33]

Lets suppose heaven is a spiritual realm that is simply a higher dimension to us. They can see and enter our dimension in the same way we can step into a circle on a floor. But a 2D being would need to break the circle to enter it.

In the same way angels and other spiritual beings can see and enter our world, but we cannot see or enter theirs. Time would still be a dimension in heaven, but the experience of it would be different from ours.

 

[oikonomia]

Does this mean there is time in heaven, a different kind of time? Or perhaps time is meaningless and therefore only God can travel between Earth time and the non time of heaven, and pierce the veil so to speak, not unlike how only Jesus was deemed worthy to open the scroll in Revelation.

You may know that the book of Revelation speaks of about a half an hour passing in heaven.

And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. (Rev. 8:1)

 

[nightmares]

Heaven is outside time and events are pre-determined

Because otherwise, if you're Satan and you are reading the book of Revelation, where it describes everything you are going to do on Earth thousands of years later, you would do something completely different

 

[oikonomia]

Heaven is outside time and events are pre-determined

Because otherwise, if you're Satan and you are reading the book of Revelation, where it describes everything you are going to do on Earth thousands of years later, you would do something completely different

I don't think it matters what Satan knows or what he does.
He is like a chess player playing against an unbeatable grand master that he knows he must lose to

Satan has hurled his best against God. And continues to unleash every subtle, crafty, ingenious scheme he has.
But he knows he HAS to lose.

Look at his demons. They know their time of torment is inevitable.
They just do not want to go there "before the time."

And behold, they cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God?
Have You come here before the time to torment us? (Matt. 8:29)

The demons know that their final destiny is to follow their leader Satan into
his miserable end. Satan knows too. He cannot prevail against the Triune God no
matter what damage he inflicts.

 

[nightmares]

I don't think it matters what Satan knows or what he does.
He is like a chess player playing against an unbeatable grand master that he knows he must lose to

Satan has hurled his best against God. And continues to unleash every subtle, crafty, ingenious scheme he has.
But he knows he HAS to lose.

Look at his demons. They know their time of torment is inevitable.
They just do not want to go there "before the time."

And behold, they cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God?
Have You come here before the time to torment us? (Matt. 8:29)

The demons know that their final destiny is to follow their leader Satan into
his miserable end. Satan knows too. He cannot prevail against the Triune God no
matter what damage he inflicts.

It's more like a movie than a chess match. Everyones just following the Script(ure)

 

[oikonomia]

It's more like a movie than a chess match. Everyones just following the Script(ure)

The very last verse of the sixty six books of the Bible speaks of our need
for grace to be with us.

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. (Rev. 22:21)

You know the final closing word of any book is very important.
After seeing all the visions and hearing all the prophecies that must come to pass,
there is still the need for the believers to have grace.

Grace is Christ being everything for us that we need.
We must come to the throne of grace always to receive timely help.

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace
that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help. (Heb. 4:16)

Only the grace of the Lord Jesus can enable us to live and walk according
to these visions and prophecies. The appeal that we need grace to supply us closes
not only this book of prophecy, Revelation. The encouragement that grace be with us
closes the entire Bible. Revelation 22:21 is the last utterance of the whole Bible.

This grace enables us to experience the unsearchable riches of the all-inclusive Christ.
Such participation in the Triune God will consummate in our becomming His
eternal corporate expression seen in the sign of the New Jerusalem. That is absolute rest
and mutual satisfaction of God and His people.

No matter how clear, how definite the prophecies are that must take place,
our need to be supplied by Christ as grace through it all only encreases.

 

[Holy Universe]

Heaven is outside time and events are pre-determined

Because otherwise, if you're Satan and you are reading the book of Revelation, where it describes everything you are going to do on Earth thousands of years later, you would do something completely different

That is the point of the question.

We know the devil is able to appear before the throne, perhaps even now (correct me if I'm wrong).

The throne is in heaven. If heaven is beyond time, does that mean everyone in heaven is also beyond time, and can thus see the future?

BUT, we know that can't be, because then even Satan, or any other fallen angel would see the future and how things play out and thus would be able to prophecy!! But ONLY the prophecy from the WORD has come true. This means its not so simple to say, heaven is beyond time, ie access to all points of time, ie be able to see the future.

If heaven is beyond time, then their must be a veil, so not everyone would have access to the future, or, perhaps, there are spiritual laws against prophecy from anyone accept from God.

This might presuppose one other thing, perhaps the ability to see the future is dependent upon knowing all things, and only then can one pinpoint an event in time to see it, for it would be dependent upon the sum total of all possible events (requiring infinite knowledge). This would make sense, so even if heaven is beyond time, without being all knowing, one could only possibly see possible futures, or perhaps nothing at all (more likely).

I always hear people saying there is no time in heaven. If you think about it, there should be some rules here, otherwise, anyone in heaven is able to give prophecy - BUT we know, only God is able to give us prophecy, and that is HOW we know the Word comes from Him. Those other religions, if inspired by fallen angels or whatever, if they were in heaven, even at any point, they'd have access to the future, thus the ability to prophecy accurately - YET, we DONT see that. Therefore, either GOD lays down some ground rules, where no being can prophecy BUT Him, or more likely (rationally from mortal thinking) is not just anyone in Heaven can see the future and prophecy.

 

[Holy Universe]

It's more like a movie than a chess match. Everyones just following the Script(ure)

I don't think any angel, being, or even Satan himself has access to the future.

More likely, he knows God does, so when he reads revelation, he knows it will come to pass, so, he plans around it, perhaps.

Look at Islam. It's the religion of antichrist. There is no way around it, for it denies the son, even that He died for our sins. The muslim nations are pretty close to the old Roman Empire - the one that was and is no more and will soon be (back it power perhaps). The Ottoman Empire could have been this, fell during WWI or II, and will come back.

The point is, the eschatology's are eerily similar, only one is 600 years after the other, and thus plagiarized, - either by man, or indeed, the angel who forced it upon that guy.

If they are similar, it's for a reason. Perhaps, because, only God, and not just anyone is beyond time, and therefore, Satan must plan within this confines.

The best plan, or only shot perhaps He is, is the plan revealed in Revelations. Even after reading it, and seeing it, it likely becomes obvious, or he is given delusion to think it will work or whatever.

 

[nightmares]

That is the point of the question.

We know the devil is able to appear before the throne, perhaps even now (correct me if I'm wrong).

The throne is in heaven. If heaven is beyond time, does that mean everyone in heaven is also beyond time, and can thus see the future?

BUT, we know that can't be, because then even Satan, or any other fallen angel would see the future and how things play out and thus would be able to prophecy!! But ONLY the prophecy from the WORD has come true. This means its not so simple to say, heaven is beyond time, ie access to all points of time, ie be able to see the future.

If heaven is beyond time, then their must be a veil, so not everyone would have access to the future, or, perhaps, there are spiritual laws against prophecy from anyone accept from God.

This might presuppose one other thing, perhaps the ability to see the future is dependent upon knowing all things, and only then can one pinpoint an event in time to see it, for it would be dependent upon the sum total of all possible events (requiring infinite knowledge). This would make sense, so even if heaven is beyond time, without being all knowing, one could only possibly see possible futures, or perhaps nothing at all (more likely).

I always hear people saying there is no time in heaven. If you think about it, there should be some rules here, otherwise, anyone in heaven is able to give prophecy - BUT we know, only God is able to give us prophecy, and that is HOW we know the Word comes from Him. Those other religions, if inspired by fallen angels or whatever, if they were in heaven, even at any point, they'd have access to the future, thus the ability to prophecy accurately - YET, we DONT see that. Therefore, either GOD lays down some ground rules, where no being can prophecy BUT Him, or more likely (rationally from mortal thinking) is not just anyone in Heaven can see the future and prophecy.

So let's assume only God/Jesus can see the future

It still doesn't change the fact that Satan, who we know is able to read the Bible, would be able to read the book of Revelation and find out that he's supposed to do X, Y and Z. So clearly, at the very least, major events are pre-determined

 

[Holy Universe]

The very last verse of the sixty six books of the Bible speaks of our need
for grace to be with us.

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. (Rev. 22:21)

You know the final closing word of any book is very important.
After seeing all the visions and hearing all the prophecies that must come to pass,
there is still the need for the believers to have grace.

Grace is Christ being everything for us that we need.
We must come to the throne of grace always to receive timely help.

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace
that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help. (Heb. 4:16)

Only the grace of the Lord Jesus can enable us to live and walk according
to these visions and prophecies. The appeal that we need grace to supply us closes
not only this book of prophecy, Revelation. The encouragement that grace be with us
closes the entire Bible. Revelation 22:21 is the last utterance of the whole Bible.

This grace enables us to experience the unsearchable riches of the all-inclusive Christ.
Such participation in the Triune God will consummate in our becomming His
eternal corporate expression seen in the sign of the New Jerusalem. That is absolute rest
and mutual satisfaction of God and His people.

No matter how clear, how definite the prophecies are that must take place,
our need to be supplied by Christ as grace through it all only encreases.

Thanks for your beautiful and inciteful post. This is the reason I came to this forum. For the honor to read and converse with the saints on God's beautiful Word and instructions.

I'd also like to add, not only do we need the grace of God each day, but so too in the end times, and doubly so, for how much grace would it take to lay down ones life for the gospel - at all costs. May each day we draw near to God, and feed on the bread of heaven, to keep our paths straight, doing His will in this life, by His grace unto obedience, for our great joy and eternal life - and throughout each such blessed, and sanctified day, may our roots grow deeper, our faiths, more refined, onto fruits that lasts and remain, throughout all seasons, whereby we survive the storms of temptation, as pillars, secure in our faith, beyond all else, that we joyfully even lay down our lives for the gospel, as a testimony for Christ.

 

[Holy Universe]

So let's assume only God/Jesus can see the future

It still doesn't change the fact that Satan, who we know is able to read the Bible, would be able to read the book of Revelation and find out that he's supposed to do X, Y and Z. So clearly, at the very least, major events are pre-determined

Agree, like I said, for one reason or another, even knowing the events, it still might be the ONLY possible way for him to achieve it. Once Christ came, he has to like the bible says, deceive even the elect, who for all intents and purposes, have been innoculated to such deception from any other religion. Therefore, he must pretend to be Christ, to deceive them. Not unlike, perhaps the Islams are innoculated against the truth in Christianity.

 

[Sorn]

Heaven is outside time and events are pre-determined

Because otherwise, if you're Satan and you are reading the book of Revelation, where it describes everything you are going to do on Earth thousands of years later, you would do something completely different

you mean like be nice or something?? He knows he is going down at some point, that why he tries to go out with a bang. It literally says that 'knowing he has but a short time left, he tries to create as much havoc as possible to deceive as many as possible'
Events are not predetermined, its just that at that point, its predictable how Satan will behave.

 

[nightmares]

you mean like be nice or something?? He knows he is going down at some point, that why he tries to go out with a bang. It literally says that 'knowing he has but a short time left, he tries to create as much havoc as possible to deceive as many as possible'
Events are not predetermined, its just that at that point, its predictable how Satan will behave.

Of course it's pre determined

If a villain finds out their evil scheme has been leaked well in advance then they would come up with a different evil scheme

 

[Sorn]

Of course it's pre determined

If a villain finds out their evil scheme has been leaked well in advance then they would come up with a different evil scheme

No its not pre-determined. God in his prophecies is effectively saying 'because Satan knows he has little time he is going to do his worst'.
Satan, knowing he is doomed, but will for a short time be given free rein to do as he wants on earth, will in that time, do his utmost worst that he can.
In other words you don't need to be a genius to have predicted that & Satan, reading that, isn't going to say 'haha, i'll out think you!, i'm going to be nicer than that'. No, he will do the worst he can to stop as may as he can from getting to heaven.
That is one prediction anyone could have made, no genius required, not even seeing the future required, its a 'well duh!' prediction.

 

[nightmares]

Yes it is pre determined

Only a stupid villain would, upon finding out their scheme is doomed to fail long before they carry it out, go ahead with it instead of coming up with one that is going to succeed

 

[Sorn]

Yes it is pre determined

Only a stupid villain would, upon finding out their scheme is doomed to fail long before they carry it out, go ahead with it instead of coming up with one that is going to succeed

Satan is already doomed & he knows it. There is nothing he can do to prevent the end that awaits him & he knows it as he can not be forgiven for his sins. As such when he is given free rein for a short while he will use it to deceive as many people as possible. Not because he has too or is compelled in some mysterious way or because he thinks it will enable him to escape his doom in some way, he knows he can't so he goes out with a bang because he wants to & chooses to under his own free will.

So that is one prediction anyone could have made, no genius required, not even seeing the future required, its a 'well duh!' prediction.

 

[tampasteve]

God does nothing without announcing it through a prophet first.

That seems a little extreme, there is a lot that God does that is not announced by a prophet, even "big" events that God does are not always announced by a prophet first. Many are, and the Bible shows us some that have been, but that does not mean all of them are.