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Is he committing adultery with his own wife?

Avniel

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I in no way am saying that you have an agenda I was just simply stating my belief in the reason you feel the word lust must be used to describe this situation. I wasn't speaking of an agenda more so a logic behind it. I would even agree that when a spouse sins and treats a spouse unloving both spouses suffer. The bible teaches us we reap what we sow, there are consequences for sin and also sin affects everyone in the situation negatively. I in no way am willing or will accept anything other then mutual pain from even one spouse removing themselves from God's will. To go a little deeper when two become one the sins of either spouse affect both of them.

I do agree with you sin can turn something special and a blessing into something one may see worth destroying. He wants the family unit to be protected and the only way to protect the family unit in my eyes are by Prayer, love and wisdom. Sex with out a spiritual intimacy is animalistic only used to produce off spring and self gratification.

I never said you used lust because its a man sin. What I am saying is that you recognized lust as being a stronger word or a stronger sin then just simply being unloving.


Yes everyone does lose when two spouses or one spouse is acting in an unloving manner. Even the children lose if they are children present.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on anything other then it's not lust. If a poster came here and said his wife killed their marriage I am not going to say his wife's sin is murder. Doesn't mean it is less sinful simply just murder isn't the right word.
 
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mkgal1

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That's why looking on a woman with lust is equal to committing adultery with her in a man's heart; the sexual desire isn't the lust, it's the desire to have something that isn't his.

Are there any qualifiers in that verse? Let's camp on this verse for a bit:

But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.~Matthew 5:28

Does it ever say this is addressed to married men? What if single........does this mean a man cannot be sexually attracted to a woman? That he can't find her alluring and beautiful (physically----because that's really *all* he has to go by at that moment)?

IMO......making a distinction between natural/healthy desire and corrupt self-gratifying desire.......that makes this verse much more clear. It takes away the shame of noticing an attractive women (because.....on it's own.....that's *not* objectifying her).
 
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mkgal1

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I in no way am saying that you have an agenda I was just simply stating my belief in the reason you feel the word lust must be used to describe this situation.
And that's making an assumption about my reasoning (which I had already explained that *I* hadn't come up with it----the Pope did....and Christopher West agrees). When I first heard West say it......it sort of unraveled the whole tangled mess. I had *no* idea it would be such a controversial remark I had made.



That's what an agenda is......but, I'm not even worrying about any of that (what an agenda is).

It is interesting to hear you tell me what *I* recognized (when I hadn't said anything of the sort). Maybe *you* recognized it.....and that's why there's so much resistance, but honestly......the thought never crossed my mind (that "lust" is a stronger word than "unloving"). That is a good point, though.......because I wasn't speaking about imperfection (which is what comes to my mind when I hear "unloving". That's a pretty vague term). "Lust" *is* a stronger attitude and should have a "strong" word to describe it. I'm glad you pointed that out.
 
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Avniel

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AN agenda is not your logic using the word lust an agenda is what you plan to gain by having people accept it as the right term.

An example:

I play basketball because my entire family plays basketball that's how I think you know thats my agenda.

I play basketball and my agenda is to use basketball to make my family proud by doing something most of them do.

Merriam Webster defines agenda as "a list or outline of things to be considered or done <agendas of faculty meetings>" or ": an underlying often ideological plan or program <a political agenda>"

Agenda - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

As far as the bolded please elaborate.
 
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Created2Write

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Of course it's not objectifying. We're all given natural sexual desires. That's why I said that sexual desire isn't necessarily lust. It can become lust, if left on its own, and that's when the internal adultery takes place, imo.
 
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mkgal1

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Of course it's not objectifying. We're all given natural sexual desires. That's why I said that sexual desire isn't necessarily lust. It can become lust, if left on its own, and that's when the internal adultery takes place, imo.

You're using vague terms. When you say, "if left on it's own"......at what point....or what's the defining marker (in your opinion) that takes it from natural desire to lust? Where's that line?
 
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I would make Created's statement a bit more precise. To use coveting as an example: if you admire someone's car, then you really like it, you might passionately want one just like it and do your best to get one. On the other hand if you covet, then you think in some way that you are entitled to have such a car.

If you look at Cain and Abel: both of them crave God's blessing. But Abel is prepared to be schooled in how to achieve that. Cain simply feels he deserves it, and this is what feeds his jealous murderous rage at Abel.

However a married couple already have one another. So there's no coveting, therefore no lust.

What there might be is inconsiderate behaviour. Spouses are supposed to loving towards one another as the many scriptures on this say. It is very easy to become selfish, have misunderstandings, etc. The way we are supposed to deal with this kind of thing between two people who are supposed to love another is dealt with in many ways in the Bible.
 
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Created2Write

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^ This.
 
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Created2Write

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You're using vague terms. When you say, "if left on it's own"......at what point....or what's the defining marker (in your opinion) that takes it from natural desire to lust? Where's that line?

I mean, if a man sees a beautiful woman(whether he's married or not) and he doesn't monitor his initial attraction, and allows his mind to wander, his sexual desire can lead to fantasies. An initial sexual thought can be uncontrollable, but intentionally rolling fantasies around in your head, embellishing them, isn't. That is when I believe there's lust.

But a man and woman who are married are free to fantasize about each other as much as they desire. There can be no lust there.
 
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Blind post:

No, I don't believe it's possible to commit adultery with your own spouse. "Lust" is uncontrolled desire for something that doesn't belong to you. If something belongs to you, it's already yours, you don't "lust" after it. You can DESIRE your spouse sexually, and that's a good and healthy thing. The only caution I would give is that you don't put your desire above the relationship; eg make them feel guilty or get upset if they don't do what you want, when you want it, etc. THAT is wrong, IMHO.
 
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mkgal1

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7706721/


 
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Cjwinnit

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Is it possible if a man looks at his own wife that he is committing adultery with her in his own heart?

Absolutely not. You cannot commit adultery with your wife. And a woman cannot commit adultery with her husband.


Perfect.
 
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BlindDidymus

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Haven't read all of this but from what I've read generally, I agree that it is a sin for a man to lust after his own wife.
The purpose of carnal relationships is for the bringing forth of children and if they are engaged in solely for the purposes of fulfilling one's own passionate desires (i.e. lusts) then they are bound to lead to suffering. (For example, perhaps one party may feel pressured into such acts though unwilling to say. This can cause grief in marriage.) As such, unless both people agree that they wish, with God's blessing, to bring a child into the world then they ought to abstain from carnal relations.
For this reason, in generations past many people only engaged in carnal relations in the dark of night and in some Christian cultures a woman would not so much as expose her chest to her own husband lest he lust after her. That said, these things are cultural and there are some cultures which permit almost no exposure of skin whilst others permit almost a complete exposure of skin even in ordinary daily activities.
 
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mkgal1

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More from Christopher West on the topic (to clarify a bit):

 
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mkgal1

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It may make more sense if "adultery" is thought of as a lack of faithfulness (especially lacking faith in love----being separated from God's love or not acting in accordance to His love.....His holiness).


Anytime a person (married or not) desires to use another person for their own selfish means (instead of love them).....they are lusting (and not acting within the context of marriage that ought to be a symbol of God's love for us.
 
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mkgal1

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1 Cor. 7:9 - "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

Seems Paul is suggesting that sexual desire in its proper place is just fine.
I never said it wasn't. In fact.....that's just what I'm saying (and quoting others that said that as well). IMO......it goes beyond, "fine"......its how He reveals His mystery to us.

 
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BlindDidymus

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I would argue that St Paul says that it is better to marry than to burn so that fornication should be avoided. He is in no way approving the lustful passion which causes the burning. He is merely seeking to prevent the shame which would arise from fornication becoming known in the community.
 
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