Is he committing adultery with his own wife?

[mkgal1]

Divorce effects a lot of people. Sin in the camp is the business of the whole camp, and a root of bitterness springing up can defile many.

Right.....but, this isn't the place to tear that all apart (especially in general and hypothetical scenarios).

 

[Forest Wolf]

Adultery=voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

It's impossible to commit adultery with your own spouse. And lust, intense sexual desire or appetite, for one's own spouse is healthy. There are a great many marriages for which passion fades over time. Lust and passion for one another is a great thing.

Recently Mkgal1 has posted a thread in which she argues that it is possible to lust after one's own spouse.

Is it possible if a man looks at his own wife that he is committing adultery with her in his own heart? If what he has is lust, isn't that the conclusion one would draw if they define 'lust' as desire without perfect genuine divine love.

Let's say there is a man who wants to be right with God in every area of his life, including his married and sex life. He abstains from sex before marriage and reads where Paul says that to prevent fornication, let every man have his own wife and every woman her own husband. So he concludes that marriage, and not life-long celibacy, is for him, and prayerfully finds a godly woman with Proverbs 31 characteristics.

He cares about his wife, but he realizes that he has a lot to work on. Sometimes he is not as understanding of his wife's needs as he wants to be. He also beats himself up a bit when he considers his own faults.

Then he reads about love in I Corinthians 13. He's moving in that direction, but he can't say he's got it all down yet.

He's a bit theologically gullible. He hears someone talk about loving his wife with genuine, divine love, and he can't say his love is that pure and complete yet. Then he goes to a seminar where someone defines 'lust' as sexual desire without this kind of genuine love.

Then he remembers this verse.

Matthew 5:28
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

He thinks, "Oh no, I've been committing adultery with my own wife." He feels really guilty. He tried to keep his thought life pure. He waited till marriage. But now, he hears that if he desires his wife without the right kind of love, it's lust, and he feels condemned.

Should he feel condemned? Is there any Biblical reason for someone to think that lust should be defined as sexual desire, even in marriage, without divine love? Or is lust related to coveting what is not yours, like Paul said when he wrote,

"for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Romans 7:7b)
?


Added later
Discussion of the value of this thread or the motives of the OP for posting it shall be considered off-topic for this thread.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I would have to agree with Link. Biblically it is not called adultery, but "lust" (i.e. 'love of the world'):

"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world" (I Jn. 2:15-16, NIV)

We are still, clearly, treading on dangerous ground - but to call it adultery is too far to the extreme.

 

[mkgal1]

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.~ Jesus (in Matthew 5:27-28)

I don't see a distinction made for marital status (nor do I see a distinction made about whom is being lusted after).

 

[mkgal1]

I would have to agree with Link. Biblically it is not called adultery, but "lust" (i.e. 'love of the world'):



We are still, clearly, treading on dangerous ground - but to call it adultery is too far to the extreme.

That's what I have said (that it's lust). Look back at post #260, please.

 

[mkgal1]

Adultery=voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

You may want to broaden that definition for a few reasons. I won't go into the obvious reasons.....but, in order for Matthew 5:32 to make sense----it's going to need some adjustment.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

That's what I have said (that it's lust). Look back at post #260, please.

But we're arguing for whether it's adultery. The 'Matthew 5' passage might take some study before I can make that distinction for marriage. I'll get back to you.

 

[mkgal1]

But we're arguing for whether it's adultery. The 'Matthew 5' passage might take some study before I can make that distinction for marriage. I'll get back to you.

Right.......but, "adultery in the heart" is the result of lusting (the absence of God's love).

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent [wishing to use her, for his own personal satisfaction---with the absence of genuine love] has already committed adultery with her in his heart [he's been unfaithful and is loving pleasure more than God].~ Jesus (in Matthew 5:27-28)

.....and, take your time. I'll wait for your response

 

[landsurveyor]

I'm not sure if you've read the other posts in this thread. Have you?

I must admit that I hadn't read every single post.
I was just stating my opinion.

 

[mkgal1]

I must admit that I hadn't read every single post.
I was just stating my opinion.

Your post wasn't actually related to anything I've been posting about. This article is the bulk of the topic:

A Pure Way of Looking at Others

Mostly this part:

Christ’s words about lust “reveal ...another vision of man’s possibilities” (Oct 29, 1980). Christ’s words reveal the possibility of loving as God loves – not despite our sexuality but in and through it.

 

[Lovely Jar]

You may want to broaden that definition for a few reasons. I won't go into the obvious reasons.....but, in order for Matthew 5:32 to make sense----it's going to need some adjustment.

I don't see a need to broaden the dictionary definition they shared at all.

Matthew 5:32 in the day when women were property of their men made sense then. It doesn't make sense today. Divorce doesn't actually free a woman from her husband?
If he beats heck out of her ever single day after the ceremony, beats her kids, near kills her, and she finally musters up the courage to divorce and does so and in God's eyes it doesn't count?
Why wasn't God there to stop her husband from near killing her?

I think if we lived our lives by the Bible dictates for our lives we'd be in prison sooner or later. And telling the judge; it can't be illegal your honor! It's in the scriptures and I believe in them! Not your law!

Just isn't going to cut it.

 

[mkgal1]

I think if we lived our lives by the Bible dictates for our lives we'd be in prison sooner or later. And telling the judge; it can't be illegal your honor! It's in the scriptures and I believe in them! Not your law!

Just isn't going to cut it.

I don't understand what this has to do with the topic.

 

[Ascendo]

The word for lust in the New Testament does not necessarily mean anything sexual.

You can't really covet your own wife.

You can't commit adultery with your own wife.

 

[LinkH]

Right.......but, "adultery in the heart" is the result of lusting (the absence of God's love).

Where do you get your definition of lust as 'the absense of God's love'? The Greek word refers to longing or desire, and in the New Testament, it is used consistently in a negative sense. The word in Matthew 5:28 is a grammatically appropriate form of epithumeo, which you can look up with the Strong's Concordance code G1937.

I've got a copy of e-Sword with the Septuigint on it, with words coded to Strong's numbers. Aside from the fact that the find function isn't working, it's pretty cool to have.

It is interesting to see that Exodus 20:17 uses this same Greek word coded G1937, the grammatically appropriate form of the epithumeo.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

The word for 'covet' over and over again is that same Greek word from Matthew 5:27 (in the grammatically appropriate form).

The question is, can you covet what is your own? Exodus 20:17 forbids coveting your neighbor's wife. You don't covet your own wife, or house, or donkey, or ox, or servant. If you covet, you covet what belongs to someone else. If a house is yours, it is not wrong for you to want to go home and sleep there. It's yours. You should give thanks to God for it. If a man desires his wife sexually, that's okay, because it is his wife.

Notice Matthew 5:27 does not say that desiring a woman is adultery, but looking to desire her is adultery. Like Romans 6 teaches, we should nto yeild are members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. There is an act of the willin choosing to look with lust here. It's not something uncontrollable. It is not mere attraction.

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent [wishing to use her, for his own personal satisfaction---with the absence of genuine love] has already committed adultery with her in his heart [he's been unfaithful and is loving pleasure more than God].~ Jesus (in Matthew 5:27-28)

It seems you are making up your own definitions here (or borrowing someone else's made up definitions.) I don't see the connection with what the words mean through a word study.

Something else to keep in mind is that Jesus was commenting on the law. He actually quoted a verse that he was commenting on here.

Matthew 5
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is commentary on the command not to commit adultery. Physical adultery involved sex with someone who was not your own spouse. Jesus talks about how a heart can be contaminated with adultery. But it is grounded concretely with this verse, directly related to the concept of real, physical adultery.

When we consider the use of the term 'lust', we need to consider it's usage in terms of how it is used in scripture. The Septuigint was the Greek translation used in the first century. The word used for 'lust' here is used in the command not to covet, and the command indicates that what is not to be coveted are possessions or wives that belong to someone else, not one's own. It's not coveting to have sexual desire for one's own wife.

Also, look at some of the other things Jesus said in the passage. Several verses earlier, he quoted the law "Do not murder" and warned against angrily calling your brother names like 'raca' and 'thou fool.' Notice that anger here has a relationship to murder. There is some kind of semantic connection between the two concepts. He isn't calling all evil speaking murder. He isn't calling swearing oaths murder and not keeping them murder. He quotes the verse about murder, and then warns against speaking these angry kinds of words. This is commentary on the law. Not only should we not perform the actions, but we shouldn't harbor the same attitudes in our hearts that lead to the sins forbidden in the Torah. So we shouldn't murder, but we shouldn't have anger and hatred in our hearts toward our brother or express them with our mouths. We shouldn't commit adultery, but neither should we have adultery in our hearts by yeilding our eyes to look with coveteousness upon a woman.

Doesn't this make more sense?
1. It sticks closely with the way the word translated 'lust' is used in the Old Testament.
2. The commands of Jesus about adultery and murder are tightly connected to his teachings against having sin in the heart.
3. The word 'adultery' does not need to be redefined loosely so as to have little or no connection to what the word literally means.

 

[LinkH]

I thought I would share the Greek verses to show the use of the verb in the 'Thou shalt not covet' verse. The Septuigint (LXX) puts the command against coveting your neighbor's wife before the command against coveting your neighbor's house. The command against adultery comes in a different order than that in the Masoretic text as well.

Mat 5:28
εγωG1473 P-1NS δεG1161 CONJ λεγωG3004 V-PAI-1S υμινG4771 P-2DP οτιG3754 CONJ παςG3956 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM βλεπωνG991 V-PAP-NSM γυναικαG1135 N-ASF προςG4314 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN επιθυμησαιG1937 V-AAN | [αυτην]G846 P-ASF | αυτηνG846 P-ASF | ηδηG2235 ADV εμοιχευσενG3431 V-AAI-3S αυτηνG846 P-ASF ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF καρδιαG2588 N-DSF αυτουG846 P-GSM
(GNT-WH+)

Exo 20:17
ουκG3364 ADV επιθυμησειςG1937 V-FAI-2S τηνG3588 T-ASF γυναικαG1135 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSM πλησιονG4139 ADV σουG4771 P-GS ουκG3364 ADV επιθυμησειςG1937 V-FAI-2S τηνG3588 T-ASF οικιανG3614 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSM πλησιονG4139 ADV σουG4771 P-GS ουτεG3777 CONJ τονG3588 T-ASM αγρονG68 N-ASM αυτουG846 D-GSM ουτεG3777 CONJ τονG3588 T-ASM παιδαG3816 N-ASM αυτουG846 D-GSM ουτεG3777 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF παιδισκηνG3814 N-ASF αυτουG846 D-GSM ουτεG3777 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSM βοοςG1016 N-GSM αυτουG846 D-GSM ουτεG3777 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSN υποζυγιουG5268 N-GSN αυτουG846 D-GSM ουτεG3777 CONJ παντοςG3956 A-GSN κτηνουςG2934 N-GSN αυτουG846 D-GSM ουτεG3777 CONJ οσαG3745 A-NPN τωG3588 T-DSM
(LXX)

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Even though it was brought up already, I'll say it again too. Lust in terms of sex means looking at your spouse only to gain what you want out of them without really caring about them. Lust lacks any love and is selfish. Lust can lead to a spouse wanting sex so much that they look else where for it. Or it can even lead them to rape their own spouse and force sex on them.

Desire, well desire means (again in terms of sex) you want to have sex but you actually love them. You don't manipulate and use them to get your own way and have it. God wants us to desire our spouse like this. Even God uses the word "Desire", in a non-sexual way of course.

Now desire can lead to lust if you let it. Lust in my mind is a sin. Desire is not. Therefor adultery is not possible with your own spouse. But like I said, the real sin is lust instead.

 

[mkgal1]

Where do you get your definition of lust as 'the absense of God's love'? The Greek word refers to longing or desire, and in the New Testament, it is used consistently in a negative sense. The word in Matthew 5:28 is a grammatically appropriate form of epithumeo, which you can look up with the Strong's Concordance code G1937.

I've got a copy of e-Sword with the Septuigint on it, with words coded to Strong's numbers. Aside from the fact that the find function isn't working, it's pretty cool to have.

It is interesting to see that Exodus 20:17 uses this same Greek word coded G1937, the grammatically appropriate form of the epithumeo.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

The word for 'covet' over and over again is that same Greek word from Matthew 5:27 (in the grammatically appropriate form).

The question is, can you covet what is your own? Exodus 20:17 forbids coveting your neighbor's wife. You don't covet your own wife, or house, or donkey, or ox, or servant. If you covet, you covet what belongs to someone else. If a house is yours, it is not wrong for you to want to go home and sleep there. It's yours. You should give thanks to God for it. If a man desires his wife sexually, that's okay, because it is his wife.

Notice Matthew 5:27 does not say that desiring a woman is adultery, but looking to desire her is adultery. Like Romans 6 teaches, we should nto yeild are members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. There is an act of the willin choosing to look with lust here. It's not something uncontrollable. It is not mere attraction.


It seems you are making up your own definitions here (or borrowing someone else's made up definitions.) I don't see the connection with what the words mean through a word study.

Something else to keep in mind is that Jesus was commenting on the law. He actually quoted a verse that he was commenting on here.

This is commentary on the command not to commit adultery. Physical adultery involved sex with someone who was not your own spouse. Jesus talks about how a heart can be contaminated with adultery. But it is grounded concretely with this verse, directly related to the concept of real, physical adultery.

When we consider the use of the term 'lust', we need to consider it's usage in terms of how it is used in scripture. The Septuigint was the Greek translation used in the first century. The word used for 'lust' here is used in the command not to covet, and the command indicates that what is not to be coveted are possessions or wives that belong to someone else, not one's own. It's not coveting to have sexual desire for one's own wife.

Also, look at some of the other things Jesus said in the passage. Several verses earlier, he quoted the law "Do not murder" and warned against angrily calling your brother names like 'raca' and 'thou fool.' Notice that anger here has a relationship to murder. There is some kind of semantic connection between the two concepts. He isn't calling all evil speaking murder. He isn't calling swearing oaths murder and not keeping them murder. He quotes the verse about murder, and then warns against speaking these angry kinds of words. This is commentary on the law. Not only should we not perform the actions, but we shouldn't harbor the same attitudes in our hearts that lead to the sins forbidden in the Torah. So we shouldn't murder, but we shouldn't have anger and hatred in our hearts toward our brother or express them with our mouths. We shouldn't commit adultery, but neither should we have adultery in our hearts by yeilding our eyes to look with coveteousness upon a woman.

Doesn't this make more sense?
1. It sticks closely with the way the word translated 'lust' is used in the Old Testament.
2. The commands of Jesus about adultery and murder are tightly connected to his teachings against having sin in the heart.
3. The word 'adultery' does not need to be redefined loosely so as to have little or no connection to what the word literally means.

I don't have the time to respond to everything you brought up, but I will respond to this quickly right now:

The question is, can you covet what is your own?

That's part of the problem, right there. We don't "own" other people. God has given us certain parameters in which we are to behave (if we desire to be like Him) in our relationships. Lust is outside those parameters......outside of His will. It's (lust, I mean) acting in the will of man (or woman).....not the will of God.

I'll get back to you on the rest.

 

[mkgal1]

As to the definition of lust. I think this resource is clear:

Lust - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

(1) Epithumia is used most frequently, and means a longing for the unlawful, hence, concupiscence, desire, lust. The following references hold the idea, not only of sinful desire known as "fleshly," "worldly," as opposed to "spiritual" "heavenly," "the will of man" as opposed to "the will of God," but also the sensual desire connected with adultery, fornication; verb in Matthew 5:28; Mark 4:19; John 8:44; Romans 1:24; 1 Corinthians 10:6; Galatians 5:16,17,24; Titus 2:12; 1 Peter 1:14; 1 John 2:16; Jude 1:16,18; Revelation 18:14.

 

[mkgal1]

Notice Matthew 5:27 does not say that desiring a woman is adultery, but looking to desire her is adultery.

Matthew 5:28 (5:27 is Jesus quoting the law----"you've heard it said, 'you shall not commit adultery'") says *neither* of those......it says, "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The word used is "lust" not "desire". There's a distinction.

 

[mkgal1]

When Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount: "You have heard that it was said: 'You shall not commit adultery," he immediately added: "But I say to you...." It is clear that he wanted to restore in the conscience of his audience the ethical significance of this commandment. He was disassociating himself from the interpretation of the "doctors of the law," official experts in it. But other than the interpretation derived from tradition, the Old Testament offers us still another tradition to understand the commandment, "Do not commit adultery." This is the tradition of the prophets. In reference to adultery, they wanted to remind Israel and Judah that their greatest sin was in abandoning the one true God in favor of the cult of various idols. In contact with other peoples, the chosen people had easily and thoughtlessly adopted such cults. Therefore, a precise characteristic of the language of the prophets is the analogy with adultery, rather than adultery itself. Such an analogy also helps to understand the commandment, "Do not commit adultery," and the relevant interpretation, the absence of which is noted in the legislative documents. In the pronouncements of the prophets, especially Isaiah, Hosea and Ezekiel, the God of the covenant—Yahweh—is often represented as a spouse. The love which united him to Israel can and must be identified with the nuptial love of a married couple. Because of its idolatry and abandonment of God-the-Spouse, in regard to him Israel commits a betrayal which can be compared to that of a woman in regard to her husband. Israel commits "adultery."

~Adultery according to the Law and as Spoken by the Prophets