Is he committing adultery with his own wife?

[mkgal1]

Nope...not sure where you got that from

Because you said it's "impossible for a man to commit adultery with his wife". A husband's commitment is with his wife.......so, any impure thoughts are against her----their marriage. (That's why I'm saying that word "with" sort of confuses things. It should maybe be "against" instead of "with"......but, I think the idea was that the actual sex is impure....so, the "marital embrace" itself is tainted.

 

[Created2Write]

Because you said it's "impossible for a man to commit adultery with his wife".

...It is impossible. He can commit adultery on his wife, with other women, but he can't commit adultery with his wife.

If a man is fantasizing about other women while having sex with his wife, he's not committing adultery with his wife, he's committing emotional adultery with his fantasies. If a man has sex with a woman who isn't his wife, he's not committing adultery with his wife, he's committing adultery with the other woman.

It is impossible for a man to commit adultery with his wife. If he commits adultery, it's with either the fantasies in his head, or the woman he's making love to that isn't his wife.

 

[Created2Write]

Because you said it's "impossible for a man to commit adultery with his wife". A husband's commitment is with his wife.......so, any impure thoughts are against her----their marriage. (That's why I'm saying that word "with" sort of confuses things. It should maybe be "against" instead of "with"......but, I think the idea was that the actual sex is impure....so, the "marital embrace" itself is tainted.

I agree that a man can commit adultery against his wife. I'm not arguing that at all. But the thread title is about whether a man can commit adultery with his wife, and that I don't believe is possible.

 

[mkgal1]

I had actually posted earlier in the thread, saying that's an absurd idea (committing adultery *with* a spouse)....but, then changed my mind when I thought about it being "unfaithful" or a "betrayal" to what God's intention is for our union being pure--and void of sin (which selfishness is a sin).

This thread isn't really about fantasies or other people.....it spawned from another thread where I was saying that selfishness (wanting sex OVER communicating love---not being concerned about the other person) is lust....and a betrayal.....a sin.

Post #103 in this thread gives more of the conversation (with links).

http://www.christianforums.com/t7706721-11/#post61945413

 

[Avniel]

I agree. Entertaining fantasies with any other person other than your spouse, whether they exist in reality or not, is adultery in the heart of the person who is fantasizing. No argument.

I think the act of having sex with someone that is fantasizing isn't adultery to the person that isn't fantasizing it is only adultery to the person that is fantasizing. The person is not committing adultery with his spouse but rather with a certain act or a certain idea(imagination).

For example if a man is thinking about Halle Berry while he is having sex with his wife and his wife is thinking about him. How can the wife and husband be considered to adulterous? The man is because he cheated on his wife with an idea but how can his wife be guilty of a sin when it is only natural for her to desire her husband sexually?


Nope...not sure where you got that from. A girl can physically be a virgin, but if her mind is raunchy she can hardly be called "pure". What goes on in our head is just as important as what we do with our bodies.

That is 100% right I agree with you.

My point was that a man can't have emotional adultery with his wife. He can commit emotional, mental or physical adultery with other women, but with his wife, it's impossible.

Agree again

I seriously don't understand where you got that from my post. I said nothing about other women, I was referring to the man's wife. Obviously all of the things you mentioned would be wrong and yes, would me mental/emotional adultery. But is it possible for a man to commit adultery with his wife by desiring her sexually? No.

I believe that a man's sexual desires can become greedy and self-focused, and that even if he isn't lusting after other women or sleeping with other women, he's desiring his wife in a selfish way. Also not okay. Love isn't meant to be self-seeking, and that would definitely be self-seeking.

I do agree with you the the self-seeking isn't love even if it's with a woman that is a man's wife. But due to the fact that it's his wife it isn't lust. It's being unloving, it's being wicked, it's being selfish, it's a sin of the opposite of love and shows hatred towards his wife but it isn't lust. It's a sin for sure but the term lust is being used because of lack of a better word.

 

[Avniel]

I agree that a man can commit adultery against his wife. I'm not arguing that at all. But the thread title is about whether a man can commit adultery with his wife, and that I don't believe is possible.

I agree makes 100% sense....finally

 

[Created2Write]

I had actually posted earlier in the thread, saying that's an absurd idea (committing adultery *with* a spouse)....but, then changed my mind when I thought about it being "unfaithful" or a "betrayal" to what God's intention is for our union being pure--and void of sin (which selfishness is a sin).

This thread isn't really about fantasies or other people.....it spawned from another thread where I was saying that selfishness (wanting sex OVER communicating love---not being concerned about the other person) is lust....and a betrayal.....a sin.

Post #103 in this thread gives more of the conversation (with links).

http://www.christianforums.com/t7706721-11/#post61945413

I agree. When our priorities are put on what we want, whether that's sex, money, emotional fulfillment, plans for the future, etc., and we ignore what the other person wants, then sin is involved. Again, no argument.

 

[Created2Write]

I do agree with you the the self-seeking isn't love even if it's with a woman that is a man's wife. But due to the fact that it's his wife it isn't lust. It's being unloving, it's being wicked, it's being selfish, it's a sin of the opposite of love and shows hatred towards his wife but it isn't lust. It's a sin for sure but the term lust is being used because of lack of a better word.

I agree...he's lusting after the woman in his head, but not his spouse.

 

[Avniel]

I agree...he's lusting after the woman in his head, but not his spouse.

My thing is he is lusting after another woman but let's say a man is being selfish his wife just had a baby 3 months old she's tired he doesn't help her and he is demanding sex or is not speaking to her. Is that a sin YES it is but is it lust I would say no. It's horrible as a human being and unloving but it's not sinful.

 

[Avniel]

I agree. When our priorities are put on what we want, whether that's sex, money, emotional fulfillment, plans for the future, etc., and we ignore what the other person wants, then sin is involved. Again, no argument.

Sin is involved I don't think anyone is arguing that point what me and Links and others are trying to inform MK is not lust.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree. When our priorities are put on what we want, whether that's sex, money, plans for the future, etc., and we ignore what the other person wants, then sin is involved. Again, no argument.

 

[LinkH]

I consider lust as a desire to do evil. If someone yields his eye to his lust to commit adultery, he is committing adultery in his heart. If he yields his tongue to murderous hatred, you may say he has murder in his heart.

If someone has some sinful desire for his wife, sinful because it is selfish or violent or whatever thing that is unloving, I might say that is 'lust' but the direction of his lust is not to commit adultery with his wife. He can't. That is his wife. So the sex isn't adulterous. But he could have sin in his heart in regards to some other matter.

I don't know if I am explaining that well. Does that make sense?

 

[Created2Write]

My thing is he is lusting after another woman but let's say a man is being selfish his wife just had a baby 3 months old she's tired he doesn't help her and he is demanding sex or is not speaking to her. Is that a sin YES it is but is it lust I would say no. It's horrible as a human being and unloving but it's not sinful.

No, that isn't lust. It's still sin, though. Anything that Christ wouldn't want us to do is sinful, imo. And being unloving is definitely sinful. Not lustful, though.

 

[Created2Write]

Sin is involved I don't think anyone is arguing that point what me and Links and others are trying to inform MK is not lust.

No, it's not lust. By definition it can't be. Each sin is different, and while there are a lot of things we can lust after, it doesn't make every sin lustful.

 

[Created2Write]

I consider lust as a desire to do evil. If someone yields his eye to his lust to commit adultery, he is committing adultery in his heart. If he yields his tongue to murderous hatred, you may say he has murder in his heart.

If someone has some sinful desire for his wife, sinful because it is selfish or violent or whatever thing that is unloving, I might say that is 'lust' but the direction of his lust is not to commit adultery with his wife. He can't. That is his wife. So the sex isn't adulterous. But he could have sin in his heart in regards to some other matter.

I don't know if I am explaining that well. Does that make sense?

It totally makes sense, and I agree.

 

[Avniel]

No, that isn't lust. It's still sin, though. Anything that Christ wouldn't want us to do is sinful, imo. And being unloving is definitely sinful. Not lustful, though.

I think it's how we are made up to believe that one sin is greater then the other. If a man lusts after another woman, commits adultery or treats his wife in a unloving way all these sins are equally sinful and all sinners will go into the pit. But with the human mind we tend to try match our reasoning with God's reasoning. If I say "so and so is an unloving husband", it sounds more passive then saying "he is a luster and he lusts after his wife and is an unloving husband." We identify lust as being more sinful then unloving so if a persons spouse demands sex and use sex in an unloving way it's easier for the spouse wronged to change the name of the sin to something that is elevated in their mind. But to say that the spouse is a unloving spouse I believe we all have parts in us that are unloving so if I know I have unloving ways then we add something so intimate as sex being used in an unloving way it may feel like the sin is being downplayed.

Please don't disappear again it is refreshing to find someone else that has moderate and a woman it is very encouraging on here.

 

[Created2Write]

I think it's how we are made up to believe that one sin is greater then the other. If a man lusts after another woman, commits adultery or treats his wife in a unloving way all these sins are equally sinful and all sinners will go into the pit.

Very true.

But with the human mind we tend to try match our reasoning with God's reasoning. If I say "so and so is an unloving husband", it sounds more passive then saying "he is a luster and he lusts after his wife and is an unloving husband." We identify lust as being more sinful then unloving so if a persons spouse demands sex and use sex in an unloving way it's easier for the spouse wronged to change the name of the sin to something that is elevated in their mind. But to say that the spouse is a unloving spouse I believe we all have parts in us that are unloving so if I know I have unloving ways then we add something so intimate as sex being used in an unloving way it may feel like the sin is being downplayed.

I see what you're saying. Both lust and being unloving can cause immense damage to a relationship, so we shouldn't take sin lightly. But no, there is no sin greater than any other, except for the unpardonable sin, of course, but that's not applicable to this discussion.

Please don't disappear again it is refreshing to find someone else that has moderate and a woman it is very encouraging on here.

Thanks Avniel. I needed a break, and since then I've grown. I don't see leaving any time soon.

 

[mkgal1]

No, it's not lust. By definition it can't be. Each sin is different, and while there are a lot of things we can lust after, it doesn't make every sin lustful.

I'm talking about specific sin.....not *all* sin.....not even the general sin of "selfishness". I'm specifically talking about sexual desire that's self-referenced----out of *self*-gratification. To make a distinction between proper....(even holy) desire.....and sexual desire that's lustful makes it to where marital sex can be discussed and understood in proper context. Instead of the "oh.....sex....NOOooooo....don't do THAT!".......it can be discussed within the parameters that God's given us (and more than just "wait until you're married"). That's not enough information (IMO). It's being able to distinguish between what's good.....and what taints the marriage.

Often, when this topic comes up......there's an underlying presumption that it's being believed that a man's desire for his wife is "bad". It's not......unless directed in a way that involves sin.

Kind of like......."be angry......but do not sin". Anger isn't sinful......it's often HOW we express it that makes it that way. But.....because most people perceive anger as a "negative"......most aren't championing for it to be protected from being called "wrong".

 

[McScribe]

In Exodus 20:17 there is a good explanation of lust. It is essentially coveting. Coveting means wanting something that belongs to someone else. So it is not possible if you see it that way to lust after your own wife. It is possible to be inconsiderate, but it is not possible to lust after or covet something that is yours. It would be like stealing your own car or breaking into your own house.

 

[mkgal1]

Yeah.....that's all been said before.

So it is not possible if you see it that way to lust after your own wife. It is possible to be inconsiderate, but it is not possible to lust after or covet something that is yours. It would be like stealing your own car or breaking into your own house.

People aren't objects or things. God *does* have parameters for how we conduct ourselves in our relationships. We were created for HIS purpose.

Begin here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7706721/