Is gravity a push or a pull?

[Wiccan_Child]

This is the foundation of the GAP theory. Gen 1:2 & Jeremiah 4:23 are the same. In fact there is a lot of detail in Jer ch 4 about Isreal being without forum and void.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.

Except Jeremiah 4 is explicitly concerned with ruin and judgement, while you're taking the meaning of one verse and transplanting it into another; Genesis uses the phrase to refer to the past, while Jeremiah speaks of the future - you're stretching Scripture around the science, when there's no actual mention of any judgement between 1:1 and 1:2, or any testament to any recreation.

Semantically, the cornerstone of GAP - that 'without form and void' always refers to a prior judgement - is questionable, as the words are not used the same way throughout the Bible. The same word for 'without form' is used three times in Job in 6:18, 12:24, and 26:7, yet there is no reference to prior judgement or ruin or restoration - rather, it literally refers to a void, an expanse of empty space or a place simply devoid of any features. So, to take one use of the word and assume it's the only use of the verse, is fallacious.

There are other flaws, including rather glaring passages such as Exodus 20:11 ("For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them" - six days, not billions of days), Romans 5:12 ("Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" - yet GAP requires death to have been present for billions of years prior to the Fall), Mark 10:9 ("But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female" - even Jesus states that God made humans not after billions of years, but at the beginning).

In other words, the Biblical support for GAP is based on indirect references to a couple of verses, yet stands at odds to a great many others.

Maybe not where you live but it was pretty much a mess here. There is about 15 to 26 feet of muck that was left behind when the glaciers melted. Also a lot of areas were going underwater. That is where we get our coral reefs and they have done a lot of exploration looking for oil. So they know quite a bit about it with the deep pockets of the oil companies paying in the hope of finding off shore oil reserves.

Undoubtedly, but that doesn't mean the world was in ruin.

Everything in between must have had a lot of violent weather with high winds. We are getting a lot of problems with the weather with just the little tiny bit of global warming we are going though now. Ice melts and without the weight the land in some places rises up higher. There are going to be earthquakes from the big shake up. No one know the exact reason but there was a massive extinction at this time. The holocene extinction.

Perhaps you see no correlation between science and the Bible, but I do. I find it all very interesting.

Indeed, and my eternal question to you is, why do you see a correlation between science and the Bible. You've said that science teaches that "the world we live in" began 12,982 years ago, yet that isn't what science says at all. The Neolithic refers to one of many stages in the development of human culture, neither unique nor particularly special. The end of the last glacial period was not a cataclysmic event, as the real impact had receded thousands of years prior - it was the 'end' inasmuch as temperatures had slowly, gradually risen. Ice sheets receded and... that's about it.

 

[Jazer]

Semantically, the cornerstone of GAP - that 'without form and void' always refers to a prior judgement - is questionable, as the words are not used the same way throughout the Bible.

You have to go back to the origional Hebrew with the Strongs Concordance. The Hebrew word in Job is a different word. It often is translated former meaning past. The word we are looking at: "Tohuw" means to lie waste.

There are other flaws, including rather glaring passages such as Exodus 20:11 ("For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them" - six days, not billions of days)

Yet in the very next verse the same word for days "Yown" stands for a while lifetime. As a GAP a day is 1000 years. But for the OEC a day could be billions of years. It represents and age or a time period. Just the same as Science has the geological ages are any of the other ages set up. Because it was Christians that were the fathers of the various branches of science that set everything up that way.

20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

There are no flaws in the Bible. There maybe flaws in people's understanding. They could be flaws in the translation. But there are no flaws in the origional language.

 

[Cabal]

There are no flaws in the Bible. There maybe flaws in people's understanding. They could be flaws in the translation. But there are no flaws in the origional language.

The fact that it is firmly rooted in a particular linguistic context (resulting in people of all other contexts interpreting it incorrectly without a knowledge of a language no longer used) is most certainly a flaw, especially when it purportedly contains universal truths critically important for each person to know. Such a medium is laughably unsuitable for conveying such things, given that language is permantently in flux (and if the Bible is to be believed, by God's hand).

 

[super animator]

The fact that it is firmly rooted in a particular linguistic context (resulting in people of all other contexts interpreting it incorrectly without a knowledge of a language no longer used) is most certainly a flaw, especially when it purportedly contains universal truths critically important for each person to know. Such a medium is laughably unsuitable for conveying such things, given that language is permanently in flux (and if the Bible is to be believed, by God's hand).

That's the downfall of translating something that is hardy used anymore. No offense, but I do not want to learn another language that I'll hardly use.

 

[Jazer]

The fact that it is firmly rooted in a particular linguistic context (resulting in people of all other contexts interpreting it incorrectly without a knowledge of a language no longer used) is most certainly a flaw

It's a 3500 year old book. Written for people who lived 3500 years ago. It is a miracle of God we can understand the Bible at all and find meaning in the Bible for our modern lives in the modern world today.

 

[Jazer]

hardy used anymore.

Wrong again, the Bible is the most used and most read and best selling book in the world. People have devoted their whole life to study the Bible and when the end of their live is near they are still only beginning in learning the message the Bible has for us today in the world we live. There is no other book like the Bible anywhere. Not even close. The God who created this Universe and the world we live in is a God that should be honored.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wrong again, the Bible is the most used and most read and best selling book in the world. People have devoted their whole life to study the Bible and when the end of their live is near they are still only beginning in learning the message the Bible has for us today in the world we live. There is no other book like the Bible anywhere. Not even close. The God who created this Universe and the world we live in is a God that should be honored.

 

[Nostromo]

I think super animator was talking about Classical Hebrew and Koine Greek being hardly used any more.

It's a 3500 year old book. Written for people who lived 3500 years ago. It is a miracle of God we can understand the Bible at all and find meaning in the Bible for our modern lives in the modern world today.

Back in the day turning sticks into snakes and bringing folk back from the dead were considered miracles, but now bilingual people are a gift from God? Standards are really slipping.

 

[pgp_protector]

I think super animator was talking about Classical Hebrew and Koine Greek being hardly used any more.

Back in the day turning sticks into snakes and bringing folk back from the dead were considered miracles, but now bilingual people are a gift from God? Standards are really slipping.

That's one of the sad things I see on this forum more & more, miracles seem to be simpler & more abundant, almost every day occurrences now.

I.E. Someone tripped & dropped their $600 iPhone & it didn't break, it's a miracle !!!.

 

[Jazer]

now bilingual people are a gift from God?

The church I attended goes on a lot of mission trips to Africa. It is amazing how fast the missionarys become bilingual to get the message out to the very ends of the world. For me it is as good of a miracle as any. Esp when the local people are so impressed that they can speak their language in their dialect as if they have no accent. When they are learning a new song as they prepare for a new crusade it is amazing that the right people well show up at the right time to help them with the local dialect.

Back in the days when a earthquake was evidence of God shaking the earth more people believed. But back in the days when so many believed they still did not live the life God wanted them to live. They still did not obey, so what good was their belief if their belief did not result in obedience to live according to God's law? Perhaps better today people claim they do not believe and yet they live a good life before God.

 

[Jazer]

it's a miracle !!!.

For some people everything is a miracle, for some people nothing is a miracle. That is just the way it is. I would rather hang out with the "It's a miracle" people, they tend to live longer and when they get sick they tend to recover faster. The I do not believe in miracles people tend to stay sick or even get worse and die when they get sick. That is why when you look around there are lots of miracle people and not very many I do not believe people. The I believe people tend to out live the I do not believe people. By at least 5 years according to science. Of course the I believe people tend to live a more healthy life style.

 

[Cabal]

For some people everything is a miracle, for some people nothing is a miracle. That is just the way it is. I would rather hang out with the "It's a miracle" people, they tend to live longer and when they get sick they tend to recover faster. The I do not believe in miracles people tend to stay sick or even get worse and die when they get sick. That is why when you look around there are lots of miracle people and not very many I do not believe people. The I believe people tend to out live the I do not believe people. By at least 5 years according to science. Of course the I believe people tend to live a more healthy life style.

Good to know you believe in miracles for personal benefit rather than any actual notion of validity.

Are all Christians as mercenary as you?

 

[Cabal]

It's a 3500 year old book. Written for people who lived 3500 years ago.

So it should have any relevance to today....why, exactly?

It is a miracle of God we can understand the Bible at all and find meaning in the Bible for our modern lives in the modern world today.

So like I said, not a particularly efficient way of communicating, ergo not perfect.

 

[keith99]

That's one of the sad things I see on this forum more & more, miracles seem to be simpler & more abundant, almost every day occurrences now.

I.E. Someone tripped & dropped their $600 iPhone & it didn't break, it's a miracle !!!.

it's a short chamber Boxer Henry, point 4-5 caliber miracle.

(Well that was rather a miracle in the opposite direction).

 

[razeontherock]

So like I said, not a particularly efficient way of communicating, ergo not perfect.

This applies to any verbal language, attempting to communicate anything of the Spirit.

 

[Cabal]

This applies to any verbal language, attempting to communicate anything of the Spirit.

It sure does.

That doesn't really resolve the problem though.

 

[razeontherock]

Right. It does point out that classic Hebrew and Koine Greek aren't primary issues though.

 

[Cabal]

Right. It does point out that classic Hebrew and Koine Greek aren't primary issues though.

That's nice. My point about writing being an ineffectual and imperfect medium still stands.

 

[Jazer]

Good to know you believe in miracles for personal benefit rather than any actual notion of validity.

I am alive because of a miracle. That is no personal benefit to me to be alive. But the doctor thought that my son needed a father and it would appear that my wife wanted to keep her husband. Otherwise we would not be here having this conversation.

A miracle is simply God restoring His creation back to His purpose and intention. It is very difficult to prove a miracle because often there is no evidence that there was anything wrong in the first place. For example you have no evidence that I was dead. So it is no miracle to you that I am alive.

 

[AV1611VET]

Let's hope this thread doesn't get to 100 posts.

The OP is such a simple question, eh?