Is God's love unconditional?

Ron Gurley · Jan 5, 2018

God spiritually loves and IS love. Mankind receives this love....OR...rejects it .....when drawn / called.
To accept his love is to believe in and have faith in him

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

MostRadicalManEver said:
Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.

ApologeticWarrior said:
No, that is the truth of the matter. And apart from the Father drawing a sinner to Him, nobody will come.

I agree (it's a truth not a condition). We naturally feel shame in our smallness compared to God. Look at ALL other spiritual cultures---they appease their gods with sacrifices.

I believe this is where the True God is different. He came to US. He didn't come to appease Himself and save us from Himself (I don't believe). Instead....I am of the belief that He came....and humbled Himself.....took on our humanity to redeem it and restore it to "good" ....all in order to demonstrate His love for us.

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Who makes the tree? God. And when He makes the tree good, it produces fruit. When we try to prune, it produces legalism. When God prunes, it produces humility and repentance.

Such a great point.

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
To accept his love is to believe in and have faith in him

I agree....(I think MOST agree and don't have too much struggle doing so). Where I believe it gets difficult is when you add in the element of imperfection and shame (and how that aligns with God and His ways).

Because of the time of year.....Mary, the mother of Jesus, comes to mind. What she had to have the courage to do.....to be a young and unmarried young woman to carry the baby Jesus. That's certainly an example of "believing God". Imagine if that happened today....an unmarried young woman announcing to her fiance' that she was pregnant....and them having to face that together up against the scorn and judgement of fellow church members and the teaching of the church on "purity". It's easy to give in to the guilt and shame that other people (not God!) can impose on us....and that can get us off course (and that's where we can believe things apart from believing God).

Jonathan Leo · Jan 5, 2018

98cwitr said:
Exactly. Satan believes in Him because he as seen Him. Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet still believe. Faith and belief are very different things.

I think that scripture points more to the fact it ain’t enough to believe in Jesus. We have to walk the walk and talk the talk. Our lives should portrait the life of Jesus

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 5, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I agree (it's a truth not a condition). We naturally feel shame in our smallness compared to God. Look at ALL other spiritual cultures---they appease their gods with sacrifices.

Although we could look at salvation and God in the Old Testament, it is also said to obey is better than sacrifice, and that obedience has always come through faith, which has always been a gift of the Spirit from God. I see all other spiritual cultures as deformations of the one true Spiritual culture in Christ.

mkgal1 said:
I believe this is where the True God is different. He came to US. He didn't come to appease Himself and save us from Himself (I don't believe). Instead....I am of the belief that He came....and humbled Himself.....took on our humanity to redeem it and restore it to "good" ....all in order to demonstrate His love for us.

Yes, great points, leads me to another thought, a difference between Christianity and other religions in sacrificial systems is in Christianity God the Father provides The perfect, once for all sacrifice the incarnate Son of God, taking the wrath we all deserve upon Himself, and declaring His people righteous by the blood of Him who knew no sin. He saved us to Himself, for His glory, by His grace and mercy in Christ.

Jonathan Leo · Jan 5, 2018

mkgal1 said:
First off.....let me just say that it wasn't too long ago that my beliefs were in alignment with yours (you can probably find some of my earlier posts that are very similar to what you're posting here).

The thing is:.....we live in a fallen world right now--one that *does* value material things and status/power. We aren't going to be "perfected" here in this environment (I don't believe).....and, to me, salvation isn't a matter of "your in/and you're out". I believe we will ALL--eventually--be saved, because I have faith in the power of His perfect love (it's just that some are going to have more "rough edges" than others).

So...in answer to your question? I don't believe that anyone will---once exposed to the Glory of God's perfect love....in an environment where genuine love is valued and greed, pride, and selfishness are despised-- continue to reject Christ's love.

It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God."~Romans 14:11

True point.

Denadii · Jan 5, 2018

MostRadicalManEver said:
I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

You are confusing God's love with salvation....God loves everybody..No lie! But he provided a single way of getting saved...That is Jesus.... Even though God loves us we still do things His way or the wrong way. It's simple and clear.....

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

Denadii said:
You are confusing God's love with salvation....God loves everybody..No lie! But he provided a single way of getting saved...That is Jesus.... Even though God loves us we still do things His way or the wrong way. It's simple and clear.....

I don't think many people disagree with this....the place of disagreement is what about when we DO "do things the wrong way". Like I mentioned before......Peter, Jesus' disciple, did "do things the wrong way" a few times (and he lived beside and was discipled personally....in the flesh....by Jesus). How did Jesus respond to that? How does God react to our lack of belief....our times of doubting Him and appeasing others? That's the place of disagreement (and it's not so clear).

Denadii · Jan 5, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I don't think many people disagree with this....the place of disagreement is what about when we DO "do things the wrong way". Like I mentioned before......Peter, Jesus' disciple, did a few times (and he lived beside and was discipled personally....in the flesh....by Jesus). How did Jesus respond to that? How does God react to our lack of belief....our times of doubting Him and appeasing others? That's the place of disagreement (and it's not so clear).

We are a faith people...If you do not believe God's Word, how can he do anything for you? Faith is what opens the door for you and God to interact. How does faith work? Faith works by love. You walk in love andit powers your faith. A simple way to walk in faith is to walk in love, and that is really walking in the Word...Live the way the Word says....do as the Word says and stay away from what he Word says to stay away from.

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Yes, great points, leads me to another thought, a difference between Christianity and other religions in sacrificial systems is in Christianity God the Father provides The perfect, once for all sacrifice the incarnate Son of God, taking the wrath we all deserve upon Himself, and declaring His people righteous by the blood of Him who knew no sin. He saved us to Himself, for His glory, by His grace and mercy in Christ.

This is where I was hung up for years (and, as an animal lover, I really had to sort of ignore this part of Christian theology). Sacrifices

When I heard the theology of St Francis of Assisi (more completely.....I grew up attending Catholic school, so I was basically aware of St Francis)....it all sort of came together for me.

This is what I believe (and, to be honest, this theology tore down the wall between me and God....where I was perceiving Him to be a blood-thirsty animal killer...but ignoring it and burying those thoughts). This makes so much more sense to me!

----------->In Leviticus 16 we see the brilliant ritualization of what we now call scapegoating, and we should indeed feel sorry for the demonized goat. On the Day of Atonement, a priest laid hands on an “escaping” goat, placing all the sins of the Jewish people from the previous year onto the animal. Then the goat was beaten with reeds and thorns, and driven out into the desert. And the people went home rejoicing, just as European Christians did after burning a supposed heretic at the stake or American whites did after the lynching of black men. Whenever the “sinner” is excluded, our ego is delighted and feels relieved and safe. It sort of works, but only for a while. Usually the illusion only deepens and becomes catatonic, blind, and repetitive—because of course, scapegoating did not really work to eliminate the evil in the first place.

Jesus came to radically undo this illusory scapegoat mechanism, which is found in every culture in some form. He became the scapegoat to reveal the universal lie of scapegoating. Note that John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin [singular] of the world” (John 1:29). It seems “the sin of the world” is ignorant killing, hatred, and fear. As Blaise Pascal so insightfully wrote, “People never do evil so completely and so cheerfully as when they do it with a religious conviction.” [2] We see this in much of the United States in our own time, with churches on every corner.

The Gospel is a highly subversive document. It painstakingly illustrates how the systems of both church and state (Caiaphas and Pilate) conspired to condemn Jesus. Throughout most of history, church and state have sought plausible scapegoats to carry their own shame and guilt. So Jesus became the sinned-against one to reveal the hidden nature of scapegoating, and we would forever see how wrong power can be—even religious power! (See John 16:8-11 and Romans 8:3.) Finally Jesus says from the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing” (Luke 23:34). The scapegoat mechanism largely operates in the unconscious; people do not know what they are doing. Scapegoaters do not know they are scapegoating, but they think they are doing a “holy duty for God” (John 16:2). You see why inner work, shadow work, and honest self-knowledge are all essential to any healthy religion.
https://cac.org/jesus-reveals-lie-scapegoating-2016-10-13/[end]

Now verses like this make so much more of a positive impact:

And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.~Luke 12:7

I can now imagine God more like this:

and:

....instead of Him requiring that the throat of innocent animals be slit so He can be satisfied.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 5, 2018

Denadii said:
We are a faith people...If you do not believe God's Word, how can he do anything for you? Faith is what opens the door for you and God to interact. How does faith work? Faith works by love. You walk in love andit powers your faith. A simple way to walk in faith is to walk in love, and that is really walking in the Word...Live the way the Word says....do as the Word says and stay away from what he Word says to stay away from.

Eph 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

The Word tells me so...

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

Denadii said:
We are a faith people...If you do not believe God's Word, how can he do anything for you? Faith is what opens the door for you and God to interact. How does faith work? Faith works by love. You walk in love and it powers your faith. A simple way to walk in faith is to walk in love, and that is really walking in the Word...Live the way the Word says....do as the Word says and stay away from what he Word says to stay away from.

I think you're missing my point (and I'm probably not being very clear).

Let me see if I can clarify. When you use phrases like, "if you do not believe God's Word"--that's far too broad of a statement. There's not just one-dimension or one aspect of His Word.....nor do we have only one way we can "do things wrong". I just don't believe "salvation" is like what's commonly presented in the modern (mostly Protestant) churches, where we hear a sermon that moves us......we become convicted and "ask Jesus into our heart and to save us from our sins". I believe He is already there.....and that He already HAD saved us from our sin (but that doesn't mean we cease sinning). Phrases like this ("You walk in love and it powers your faith") are nice...and even true....but like I keep pointing out, even Peter doubted a few times. The question is: "Does God respond with an unconditional sort of love?". And if so.....what does that even mean? Different people have different ideas as to what "love" is. People within the Westboro Baptist Group and the KKK will tell you they are "loving like God loves"---it's just that they have a distorted idea as to what "love" is (it's nothing like 1st Corinthians 13).

ViaCrucis · Jan 5, 2018

MostRadicalManEver said:
I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.

That isn't a condition of God's love. It is because God loves all unconditionally that He sent His only-begotten Son (John 3:16).

Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.

Everyone is condemned already under the Law, as St. Paul writes, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), indeed, "There is no one who is righteous, not even one; no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned aside, together become worthless; there is none who do good, not even one." (Romans 3:10-13).

All are condemned under the Law, every last person. And it is to those condemned as sinners under the Law that God loves and has sent His Son to save, "This is a trustworthy saying worthy of full acceptance, that Christ came to save sinners, and I am the chief of sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15), indeed, "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness--you, me, everyone. That is what we have in the Law, the righteous God who reveals that which is right, and our sin condemns us; and in our sin we have God's wrath against us. But that is not how God wants to relate to us, He wants to save us, He wishes to restore and heal us, to turn us away from our enmity against Him and to make us children and heirs, which is why He sent His Son.

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

Learn to understand the distinction between Law and Gospel.

Everyone is condemned under the Law.
Everyone is beloved of God through the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness--you, me, everyone.

This is a really important point, I think. People aren't His enemy.....the sin that sickens us is (and He is healing that...in everyone).

Rajni · Jan 5, 2018

Denadii said:

If you do not believe God's Word, how can he do anything for you?

Click to expand...

God isn't bound by human limitations.

After all, it's said that when we were still sinners Christ died for us.
So He's quite able to do whatever He pleases regardless of what
we believe or disbelieve at any given time.

-

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2018

Off topic for just a second. I literally LOL'd at this

ViaCrucis · Jan 5, 2018

mkgal1 said:
This is a really important point, I think. People aren't His enemy.....the sin that sickens us is (and He is healing that).

In Lutheran thought, generally speaking, to talk about God's wrath isn't to talk about God as angry with a kind of ill-intended pathos; it is to talk about the objective reality of sin as it relates to God's righteousness. When we look at God through His Law as sinners we see God's wrath, we see just how lowly we are, how wretched we are, how entirely unrighteous we are before this holy and righteous Almighty Judge. But wrath isn't God's disposition toward us, God's disposition toward us is love, St. John says point blank "God is love". We are condemned under the Law not because God wants to condemn us, but because the Law being good reveals that we are not good. The Law is a mirror that reflects our own ugliness and that is what we see--and through that the good and just God's judgment naturally falls upon us.

But that isn't what God wants, what God wants is to show forth His great love and kindness and redeem, rescue, and heal us. Which is why He sends Jesus, the Word made flesh, and in Jesus we see not the Hidden and Terrible God of smoke and flame of the Law, but the Revealed God of the crucified flesh and shed blood of Jesus Christ who cries out, "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do".

This is why Luther could say, "Those who see God as angry, do not see Him rightly, but look upon a dark storm cloud hiding His face. If we have Christ as our Savior, we have a God of love; and to look upon God in faith is to look upon His friendly Fatherly heart."

And it is important to understand that in Lutheranism we reject both the Limited Atonement of Calvinism and the Limitless Potential Atonement of Arminianism; that is we reject that Christ only died for the Elect only and we reject that Christ's atoning work is only in potential for those who would believe. We instead teach that Christ's atonement is universal, Christ died objectively for all. Christ is the Savior of everyone. Not just for those who believe or would believe, but for everyone. The reason why some are not saved isn't because Christ didn't atone for their sins, but instead because "men loved darkness more than the light, and their deeds were evil"; God doesn't damn anyone, we damn ourselves. Christ died for everyone, and He has sent forth His Church to come bearing the Means of Grace through which the Holy Spirit appropriates what Christ has done to us. As we confess,

"The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." - Large Catechism, Section 2, Article III

-CryptoLutheran

SBC · Jan 5, 2018

MostRadicalManEver said:
I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

God Loves His Creations without Conditions.

God has many consequences to GIVE, to men, and those "things" DO HAVE Conditions.

Some "consequences" a man may be elated to receive, and other men may be saddened to receive.

God Bless,
SBC

ClementofA · Jan 5, 2018

God is love. That's what He is & does. Always & ever.

Therefore it is unconditional toward other beings, humans & angels.

Even when He judges, is angry, punishes, or chastises. Like a perfect father toward his children, all this is "in love".

He loves others, no matter what they do.

IOW He has unconditional love.

There is nothing you could ever do, or have ever done, that would stop Him from being what He is, & loving you.

Is God's love unconditional?

What U See is What U Get!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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