Is God really all-loving?

[juvenissun]

2b) Also, I fail to understand why several thousand years after Adam and Eve ate the apple, I still retain inherent sin from that, and have to repent. That's like saying that the grandson of Hitler has to apologize every day just because he's hitler's grandson. It just seems more petty than all-loving. Please explain?

Hiter is a sinner to God. His offsprings are not sinners to human society, but are still sinners to God which has nothing to do with Hitler. Every human being is a sinner to God. This is also a very fair situation. This basically answered your question. The extension of the question is: Why should our sin be inherited from Adam? But that is another question.

 

[Sketcher]

1) God gave us free will, but then followed up by basically saying "if you don't follow me, you go to hell", which is kind of the equivalent of saying "your choice, but only if you make the right choice". How is this fair?

I don't see offering a choice, let alone an informed choice, as unfair. I have to give them to people all the time, doing what I do for a living. It's looking out for them. I therefore cannot claim that God is unfair when he presents choices to people in the Bible.

2a) I do not understand the differnece between repentance and just acknowledging a fault. Say a christian experiences an outburst of emotion, experiences guilt, prays, apologizes to the person the outburst was directed at, and make mental note to keep emotions in check (is this a good example of repentance?). Now an atheist does the same, without the praying. Both of these people continue to do the same thing, both grow up and become better and better people, but in the end, (I assume), the atheist goes to hell, and the christian goes to heaven. Why?

Sin isn't just in relation to other people, it is also in relation to God. The atheist in your example has not done anything in terms of where he stands before God. As far as acknowledging a fault is concerned, repentance is more than that. It is "coming home" to a right walk with God and replacing your wrong way with God's right way.

2b) Also, I fail to understand why several thousand years after Adam and Eve ate the apple, I still retain inherent sin from that, and have to repent. That's like saying that the grandson of Hitler has to apologize every day just because he's hitler's grandson. It just seems more petty than all-loving. Please explain?

I don't have to apologize to God for Adam eating the fruit. I have to apologize to him for doing the equivalent of eating the fruit in my own life. Because Adam chose sin, I have inherited a sinful nature from him. Through Christ, I am delivered from that.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was belittling Christianity in any way. I have great respect for the central message of love

You're fine.

I just fail to see why the spiritual aspect is necessary for me to get into heaven (assuming I believe in heaven, which I currently am uncertain about). Why do I go to hell, even if I were to live following all the moral rules of the Bible just because I don't acknowledge god?

Because only through Christ are we delivered from our sinful natures and our sins forgiven.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

1) God gave us free will, but then followed up by basically saying "if you don't follow me, you go to hell", which is kind of the equivalent of saying "your choice, but only if you make the right choice". How is this fair?

I understand how this may seem unfair but when you understand it better it will make more sense. First you have to remember that the world was perfect when God created man and God had full communion with man. Now when the devil tempted eve and she disobeyed God along with Adam, sin entered the world. Sin caused a separation and the communion that God had with man he can no longer have because as God is holy, his full presence will kill anyone with sin in their life which is why since Adam no man has been able to see God. The plan of redemption is a plan to redeem man from sin and to allow God to once again have this full communion with man. Eventually, God will have to rid the world of sin to save man from all the chaos that sin and the devil has caused and to also bring man back to the state he was in before mankind fell into sin in the first place. So God has basically offered to us, salvation so when he finally gets rid of sin, we would not be caught up. The fires of hell are really for the devil and his angels but those who hold on to sin would also have to be destroyed when sin will be put to an end and removed from the world. I hope this makes sense.

2a) I do not understand the differnece between repentance and just acknowledging a fault. Say a christian experiences an outburst of emotion, experiences guilt, prays, apologizes to the person the outburst was directed at, and make mental note to keep emotions in check (is this a good example of repentance?). Now an atheist does the same, without the praying. Both of these people continue to do the same thing, both grow up and become better and better people, but in the end, (I assume), the atheist goes to hell, and the christian goes to heaven. Why?

Easy one. So the bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death. Now we are not saved based on how well we behaved. See, once you have sinned once you are subject to death. In addition, we are all born corruptible with a sinful nature. Nothing that is sinful can enter God's holy kingdom. So since none of us is perfect, and we all have sinful natures, none of us are qualified to enter heaven. How do we then make it to heaven? The spotless and perfect life of Jesus Christ is attributed to us. He is the only one who was able to live as a man and live a perfect life so we are made right (justified) by his life and his record is presented as our record. But this is only the case when we accept him and decide to follow him. Think of it this way. You are a high school teacher. Let's say 20 high school students in your class want to attend a concert but it is only for adults. The requirement to enter the concert is to present a valid ID. None of them qualify, and they do not have an ID. You know the owner of the club, you talk to the owner of the club and you come down to the club with your students. You present your ID and state that the students are with you and you have worked out a deal with the owner of the club. All your students get into the club even though they do not qualify because you have met the requirements necessary. That is exactly what Jesus does for us. So who gets saved is not dependent on how well they lived their life (that is not to say you should not live your life well), but it is based on the perfect life of Christ that we can all claim heaven. An athiest who does not follow Jesus cannot have this privilege.

2b) Also, I fail to understand why several thousand years after Adam and Eve ate the apple, I still retain inherent sin from that, and have to repent. That's like saying that the grandson of Hitler has to apologize every day just because he's hitler's grandson. It just seems more petty than all-loving. Please explain?

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was belittling Christianity in any way. I have great respect for the central message of love, but I just fail to see why the spiritual aspect is necessary for me to get into heaven (assuming I believe in heaven, which I currently am uncertain about). Why do I go to hell, even if I were to live following all the moral rules of the Bible just because I don't acknowledge god?

Okay so we are not repenting for Adam's sin. We have to repent for our own sin. What has been passed down is the sinful nature. So we all have a tendency to sin, but we are repenting for our own sin.

And to our last question here, I think I answered it above.

 

[aiki]

1) God gave us free will, but then followed up by basically saying "if you don't follow me, you go to hell", which is kind of the equivalent of saying "your choice, but only if you make the right choice". How is this fair?

I don't think God gave us unlimited free will. Let me explain: Every choice we make sets us in a particular course of choices that develop a kind of momentum that over time becomes impossible to overcome. We may begin with a genuinely free choice but the choices we make that tumble out of that first choice slowly but inexorably limit us.

In any event, God giving us free will does not oblige Him to suspend any and all consequences of the exercise of that free will. Why should it? We may have the freedom to choose, but we do so in God's universe. He calls the shots here; He establishes the rules. That's in part what makes Him God. So, we may choose as we like to obey God or not, but as in most choices we make, there are consequences - good and bad - that result. Why shouldn't there be?

2a) I do not understand the differnece between repentance and just acknowledging a fault.

Acknowledging that your sin is, in fact, sin is confession. Turning from that sin to a life lived in obedience to God is repentance. These things are related but not identical.

Now an atheist does the same, without the praying. Both of these people continue to do the same thing, both grow up and become better and better people, but in the end, (I assume), the atheist goes to hell, and the christian goes to heaven. Why?

Because all the selfish sinful things we do are always ultimately against God. It is not enough to acknowledge to others your faults and failings; you must go further and call your failings what they really are: sin. And then you must confess your sin to God. If you do not, God says that in His universe you will suffer the consequences of breaking His moral law.

There is no person who is ever good enough to enter heaven. Heaven is God's home and all who would enter there must be perfect as He is. But the best of us never even get close to the holy perfection of God. We have a problem, then, don't we? God solved that problem through His Son, Jesus Christ. Read the Gospel of John for all the details.

2b) Also, I fail to understand why several thousand years after Adam and Eve ate the apple, I still retain inherent sin from that, and have to repent. That's like saying that the grandson of Hitler has to apologize every day just because he's hitler's grandson. It just seems more petty than all-loving. Please explain?

This is, in part, why sin is so hated by God. It never just affects the one who sins. Sin spreads corruption and death which is what happened when Adam and Eve sinned in Eden. We all descend from them and so inherit the corruption and death of their sin. But, God has made a way through Jesus for us to break free of the power and penalty of sin. He didn't have to do so. He was well within His rights to send every one of us to hell. Instead, He showed us incredible mercy and grace, making atonement for our sin on a cross some 2000 years ago. This sounds pretty loving to me...

Why do I go to hell, even if I were to live following all the moral rules of the Bible just because I don't acknowledge god?

Because, as I said, it's God's universe you're in. Every moment of your existence is entirely contingent upon Him. Why, then, should you be free to live with your back to your Creator in His universe? If you want absolute autonomy, make your own universe.

Selah.

 

[FireDragon76]

Salvation is not something earned through a lifetime of good works, it is a free gift to those who have faith.

As my pastor says, the scandal of the Gospel is getting something absolutely free. Fallen man will never really like this, but that's because he's fallen and sinful. He wants to have something to boast about and be proud of. God is not Santa Claus, he is not good only to the good little children. He is good to everyone. And we see the goodness of God principally in Jesus sacrifice for us so that we can have eternal life.

Of course we can't love somebody that puts a gun to our head and says "Love me, or else". But that's not how, at least I, as a Lutheran, understand the Gospel. Because love cannot be compelled, it has to be a free response to being loved. So our justification, our acceptance by God, is not dependent on loving God back . It's dependent on faith.

Repentance is something that happens when we have faith. It is not something that we must first do, then have faith. That's putting the cart before the horse. Repentance is not a good work. You don't have to meticulously be sorry for your sins or do any particular ritual. Aside from the corporate confession at church, I never pray to God specifically asking for forgiveness, at least as not some unique act (I suppose it's implied in the Lord's Prayer). I just realize when I've done something wrong and try to do better, because I know I am forgiven.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I have two question right now:
1) God gave us free will, but then followed up by basically saying "if you don't follow me, you go to hell", which is kind of the equivalent of saying "your choice, but only if you make the right choice". How is this fair?

Well, perhaps there are things God would count as following Him that transcend mere verbal correctness.

I do not understand the differnece between repentance and just acknowledging a fault. Say a christian experiences an outburst of emotion, experiences guilt, prays, apologizes to the person the outburst was directed at, and make mental note to keep emotions in check (is this a good example of repentance?). Now an atheist does the same, without the praying. Both of these people continue to do the same thing, both grow up and become better and better people, but in the end, (I assume), the atheist goes to hell, and the christian goes to heaven. Why?

The word "repent" doesn't imply anything about relationship with God . . . so both of your scenarios there count as being a kind of repenting.

Now as for salvation, perhaps we can take seriously the words of Christ when He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life".

So if an atheist seeks to find truth, no matter what it is, perhaps God can count that as seeking Christ and allow his salvation. If an atheist seeks to promote life, without regard to what he thinks of as religion, perhaps God can count that as seeking Christ and allow his salvation.

Also, I fail to understand why several thousand years after Adam and Eve ate the apple, I still retain inherent sin from that, and have to repent. That's like saying that the grandson of Hitler has to apologize every day just because he's hitler's grandson. It just seems more petty than all-loving. Please explain?

If we are raised in an environment that is less than perfect . . . then we have a high likelyhood of, ourselves, falling into sin. It is that less than perfect environment, with which we are all stuck since Adam, that keeps us on the sin track. Its not that there is a sin gene, but there is a sin milieu.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was belittling Christianity in any way. I have great respect for the central message of love, but I just fail to see why the spiritual aspect is necessary for me to get into heaven (assuming I believe in heaven, which I currently am uncertain about). Why do I go to hell, even if I were to live following all the moral rules of the Bible just because I don't acknowledge god?

I advise you to pray about it and see what God directs you to do.

 

[bling]

It's not a demand and people can do as they wish. I'm just saying it's not a genuine love if it's born out of fear. It's not psychologically possible to love someone who say's, "love me or I will kill you and throw you into hell."

If they want to approach Jesus that way they can but the closer they get to Him the more that fear will disappear in His love.

Did the prodigal son go to his father out of a Love for his father or a fear of where he was headed?

 

[dhh712]

1) God gave us free will, but then followed up by basically saying "if you don't follow me, you go to hell", which is kind of the equivalent of saying "your choice, but only if you make the right choice". How is this fair?

We don't have free will to do any spiritual good accompanying salvation. We can't convert ourselves. We are enslaved to sin and Satan until God regenerates us.

2a) I do not understand the differnece between repentance and just acknowledging a fault. Say a christian experiences an outburst of emotion, experiences guilt, prays, apologizes to the person the outburst was directed at, and make mental note to keep emotions in check (is this a good example of repentance?). Now an atheist does the same, without the praying. Both of these people continue to do the same thing, both grow up and become better and better people, but in the end, (I assume), the atheist goes to hell, and the christian goes to heaven. Why?

The Christian does not go to heaven because he was a better person than the next. He gets to be with God eternally because Jesus has covered his sins so that he doesn't have to suffer God's eternal wrath.

2b) Also, I fail to understand why several thousand years after Adam and Eve ate the apple, I still retain inherent sin from that, and have to repent. That's like saying that the grandson of Hitler has to apologize every day just because he's hitler's grandson. It just seems more petty than all-loving. Please explain?

Because we are all children of Adam, we have inherited his sinful nature. There is nothing more we can do about this than say, a cat that's a carnivore. It won't just decide to be a vegetarian unless there's some supernatural activity going on. Same with a Christian. Prior to conversion, that person was spiritually dead. God had to intervene in his life to regenerate his spirit to new life.