Is God omnipotent and controls everything?

[parousia70]

Does Foreknowledge = Predestination?

Before God chose to Create the Universe, He knew in advance every how every detail would unfold from beginning to end.

Acting with this foreknowledge of every mapped out detail, He THEN made the conscious choice to create the universe. There is no possibility any part of his creation can deviate in any detail from what God foresaw, and consciously set into motion by His will.

His willful Act of Creation alone proves He is in total and complete control over every detail of the unfolding of His chosen creation, as no detail can later be altered by any amount of Free Will expressed by any of His created beings.

 

[Swag365]

New thread, trying to pinpoint my question.

What is the significance of whether God "controls everything" (regardless of how you define "control")?

What follows from the answer to that question, which is of consequence to anyone? This is not a rhretorical question, I would like to know the answer. I don't see why the answer matters, unless we just want to have some abstract theological discussion. Why does it matter to you?

Is your question a proxy of sorts for something else that you would like to discuss, for example, the notion in Calvinism that God has no desire that all men be saved, that he only desires for a limited subset of men to be saved, and that he desires that another subset burn in hell?

 

[Swag365]

Because everything has an affect on something else. We may not understand how, but there’s always a connection.

No, this is not true.

 

[parousia70]

Is your question a proxy of sorts for something else that you would like to discuss, for example, the notion in Calvinism that God has no desire that all men be saved, that he only desires for a limited subset of men to be saved, and that he desires that another subset burn in hell?

That is interesting.
I'm no Calvinist, But this topic fascinates me.

I believe God was not compelled by any force to create the universe, that instead He did so purely because he desired to.

If that is true, wouldn't it then follow, that every unfolding detail of His creation, Having been pre known by God before He chose to act upon His own desire to create the universe, Is a detail God desired to be made manifest?

Seems to me it would have to be argued that God was somehow Compelled to create the universe, that He had no Choice BUT to create it, that He could not possibly have chosen against creating it, before it could be argued that He is only desirous of certain aspects of it.

Unless I'm missing something, which may very well be.

 

[Hammster]

No, this is not true.

Yes, it is.

 

[Swag365]

Yes, it is.

Nonsense.

 

[Swag365]

If that is true, wouldn't it then follow, that every unfolding detail of His creation, Having been pre known by God before He chose to act upon His own desire to create the universe, Is a detail God desired to be made manifest?

I don't know about all of that. I don't have to continue living. I could commit suicide today and end my life. But if I continue to live my life I know that I will commit some sins in the future, if only venial. That doesn't mean that I desire for these future sins to occur by my decision to live. They are just an unintended consequence of the good decision that I made.

 

[Swag365]

Does Foreknowledge = Predestination?

Before God chose to Create the Universe, He knew in advance every how every detail would unfold from beginning to end.

Acting with this foreknowledge of every mapped out detail, He THEN made the conscious choice to create the universe. There is no possibility any part of his creation can deviate in any detail from what God foresaw, and consciously set into motion by His will.

His willful Act of Creation alone proves He is in total and complete control over every detail of the unfolding of His chosen creation, as no detail can later be altered by any amount of Free Will expressed by any of His created beings.

I would think that William Lane Craig's treatment of molinism would have some interesting insights here. I was looking at that stuff a few years ago, forgot most of it, but I think he talks about questions like these, alternative worlds, the "best possible world" and so-forth.

 

[Hammster]

Nonsense.

Nope.

 

[Tone]

How about this (@zoidar ):

He sees all things unfolded before Him.

He may whip out His microscope and examine every single crease...and zoom in even more and see all the particles that make up the creases.

But does He do this? Or does He just Speak on certain significant folds?


Like saying, "Look at this fold. It is important, because the weave of its fabric meets with this other fabric as they enfold."

Take the significant story about Jacob and Esau. Didn't the Creator state in advance that "The elder shall serve the younger"?

But does this mean that He orchestrated or even magnified every particular that Rebecca herself weaved into the narrative?

What if she simply heard the revelation of the fold (that the elder shall serve the younger) and took it upon herself to manifest it in the context of her own life?

And when this occurred did the Creator maybe decide that this would be an acceptable weave within the pattern He envisioned?

 

[Mark Quayle]

New thread, trying to pinpoint my question.

It is an interesting philosophical discussion, to me anyway, because to my mind, it simply falls logically into place, that God, as First Cause, most definitely does cause absolutely everything --and therefore "inhabits" (for lack of a better word) every minutest particle of matter and energy. Oh yes, the implication is complete control. There is a reason for the saying, "in whom we live and move and have our being."

However, what that means to our limited knowledge and intellect is another matter. We have very little knowledge of even what our words mean, nevermind how to put them together to describe what God has done and is doing. How much less then, God's words?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, this is not true.

Have you not heard of Cause-And-Effect? There are no little first-causes trotting about the planet. Get used to hearing simple logic from Calvinists. Logic doesn't allow for "chance" to determine anything, nor absolute spontaneity any more than it does for absolute sovereignty, except on the part of First Cause --i.e. GOD.

Hammster is kinder than I. He lets you in on the facts a little at a time, letting you wander about in search of a way to catch him at his words, while you paint yourself into a corner. I'd rather just shoot you down on the spot when you say something absurd.

 

[Liam Hayden]

Simply, if God were not omnipotent then that one whatever that is outside his control could overthrow everything.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does Foreknowledge = Predestination?

Before God chose to Create the Universe, He knew in advance every how every detail would unfold from beginning to end.

Acting with this foreknowledge of every mapped out detail, He THEN made the conscious choice to create the universe. There is no possibility any part of his creation can deviate in any detail from what God foresaw, and consciously set into motion by His will.

His willful Act of Creation alone proves He is in total and complete control over every detail of the unfolding of His chosen creation, as no detail can later be altered by any amount of Free Will expressed by any of His created beings.

Logically, for timeless God to foreknow, is to forecause.

 

[zoidar]

What is the significance of whether God "controls everything" (regardless of how you define "control")?

What follows from the answer to that question, which is of consequence to anyone? This is not a rhretorical question, I would like to know the answer. I don't see why the answer matters, unless we just want to have some abstract theological discussion. Why does it matter to you?

Is your question a proxy of sorts for something else that you would like to discuss, for example, the notion in Calvinism that God has no desire that all men be saved, that he only desires for a limited subset of men to be saved, and that he desires that another subset burn in hell?

Thanks for the question. I appreciate it! Maybe it was predestined for you to ask this question, to bring attention to the real matter. Who knows?

"I have started this thread to show that all Christians believe God is omnipotent. Christians just have a different view of what omnipotens means."

That's the point of the thread, not which is true, but that all Christians believe God is omnipotent. Many times have people "thrown in the card" (Swedish expression?) in discussion "I believe in an omnipotent God" implying I do not, because I believe in free will etc. That bothers me. I just want people to understand and accept that just because we see differently on matters like predestination, foreknowledge, free will, election doesn't mean we don't believe in an omnipotent God. So there you have the reason.

 

[mindlight]

New thread, trying to pinpoint my question.

God is Almighty in the sense that no other Being in the universe he has created is remotely comparable in terms of power.

But God created beings with freedom of agency and is not a tyrant who seeks to stifle those freedoms. He is more like a Father who hopes that having given us all that we need out of love we will make the right choices. He has made provision for when we mess up in Christ also.

Part of the problem with this question is that the word omnipotence never appears in scripture and Almighty means a different thing.

 

[zoidar]

Part of the problem with this question is that the word omnipotence never appears in scripture and Almighty means a different thing.

What would you say is the difference between omnipotent and almighty? (not saying there isn't a difference though.)

 

[mindlight]

What would you say is the difference between omnipotent and almighty? (not saying there isn't a difference though.)

If you go to an English dictionary the two are interlinked, to define each other, but the difference between El Shaddai and Deus Omnipotens is the key here. The Hebrew and Latin mean different things. El Shaddai refers to a Creator who having created all was able to say enough to creation, so that the creation process stopped. Omnipotens implies a sort of Imperial control of all reality by an All powerful God. The difference is subtle but exists.

But there is a lot of controversy about what the word Shaddai actually meant in the original Hebrew so maybe its meaning is not completely clear.

 

[martymonster]

Today I let my 1 year old, play with a hand-grenade. I know that might seem negligent and irresponsible to most of you, but I just couldn't bring myself to violate his precious "free will"

 

[Swag365]

Today I let my 1 year old, play with a hand-grenade. I know that might seem negligent and irresponsible to most of you, but I just couldn't bring myself to violate his precious "free will"

When he becomes an adult, are you going to keep him locked up in a cage to ensure that he does not commit any crimes?