• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Featured Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neogaia777, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,940
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    Didn't he know that was gonna happen already, or was he kind of taken aback or surprised by it...?

    God Bless!
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,940
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    So, you don't think God ever commanded Genocide ever...? And if He did you don't think it's ever right, even for God...?

    God Bless!
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,940
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    So God was unjust or wrong in commanding genocide in the OT...?

    God Bless!
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,940
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    None of this or all of this, doesn't seem like a God that already knew about it (all), long before, or long ago...?

    God Bless!
     
  5. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I can only re-iterate what I have already said...

    As a Christian I believe Jesus asks us to follow Him - if Jesus says "Love your enemy." then I can't see how you could justify killing of any kind let alone genocide.

    There are a lot of things in the Jewish Bible that I don't understand and can only pray will be revealed to me as I study scripture.
     
  6. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    +200
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    God and men have a different morality base and agenda on earth. Men's morality base is on human physical bodies, thus genocide is immoral. God's morality base is on souls. If less souls are saved than He should, it's thus immoral. In this perspective, Cannaanites were eradicated or else they would war with Israel in no ends, not only wars physically but also spiritual wars with Cannaanites' gods such as Baal as the tool to stop God's plan of bringing salvation to humans through the Jews.

    Satan was to make use of the already dead Cannaanites to war against Israel from all aspects, while God commanded Irael to eradicate them such that the Jews can settle in Canaan as God's buried seed in bringing salvation to today's human souls. If God didn't do anything, it only means that the Jews would have finally been outnumbered and wiped out completely from history. God's plan for human salvation would have come to an end.
     
  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    +2,267
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    according to the Bible God knows the present, past and future .... that being the case with God there are not any surprises.

    Psalms 147

    4He determines the number of the stars;
    He calls them each by name.
    5Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
    His understanding has no limit.

    Our minds can not really comprehend it.

    Isaiah 40:28

    Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable (beyond our understanding).
     
  8. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

    +772
    Catholic
    Married
    That wouldn't have been genocide, it would have been part of prosecuting a just war. Picard was having an attack of scruples - blame his scriptwriters.
     
  9. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

    +1,103
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    There's that idea again - the death of the Canaanites was necessary for salvation. So how many sacrifices besides Jesus' self-sacrifice does that include? Thousands? How much does that dilute Jesus' sacrifice? I mean, you're saying these deaths were necessary for salvation. Should we be saying 'thank you' to the Canaanites for dying for our sins? After all, they had die for our salvation, right?

    It's also interesting when people think that God is some sort of moral consequentialist, like he's some form of a Great Utilitarian. My questions are: What is this constraint on God's action that is causing him to have to solve an optimization problem? In order to have to solve a optimization problem, an agent has to be operating under some sort of constraint - otherwise there is no optimization problem. So what is this power that constrains God? .

    Further, why think it's God's goal to maximize the number in heaven and minimize the number in hell? I think this really goes back to something like JS Mill's thinking, but in this case it's God (rather than just us) that's trying to optimize human pleasure vs. pain. Ignoring for a moment the numerous other flaws with this sort of moral consequentialist system, why think this is God's goal?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. Silverback

    Silverback Well-Known Member

    942
    +577
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    I answers this on another thread a few days ago, this is my take on it, and it can be applied to Sodom, and the flood as well.

    1. God is sovereign, our lives are not our own
    2. There are none righteous, not even one.
    3. God does allow suffering, but places limits on it.
    4. God's justice, rightousness, and holiness are just as much a part of his nature as his love, mercy, and kindness.
    5. God is never the author of sin.
    6. His thoughts are not our thoughts
    7. His ways are not our ways
    8. If God does something it is always just, and right.
    9. Our ability to reason, believe, and make correct decisions are contaminated by sin.
    10. I simply trust that God has a plan, and he does things for his reasons. We don't get the privilege of knowing all of God's mind, sometimes we don't have all the answers.
     
  11. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    +200
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    You missed the whole point. If it's not because of the Jews as chosen people, where shall Jesus be born?

    There won't be any Jesus if the Jews were wiped out in history before He's born. To put it another way, the Jews are all for Jesus' coming. If they were wiped out by the Canaanites, how can Jesus come? You tell me. God chose the Jews as His people for a reason, or not?
     
  12. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

    +1,103
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    I see you won't be answering my objections/concerns about your previous comments.
     
  13. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    +200
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    I was answering. You misread. I never meant to say that the Jews can be a replacement of Jesus. Please re-read. God commanded the Jews to eradicate the Canaanites such that the Jews can survive history for God to bring forward His salvation plan. That's what I said, all the times.

    Hell is an eternal torment. How moral God is if He can save someone while He chooses not to? Do you happen to read the Bible saying that He doesn't want anyone to be condemned if possible?

    I don't need to avoid your this question as it's so simple to be answered that I don't suppose that it's asked in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  14. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

    +1,103
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    So one of the consequences of this belief is that the death of the Canaanites was necessary for salvation. Do you agree? If you disagree, where have I gone wrong with the logic?

    I would say it's just separation from God, whatever exactly that entails. I make this distinction because I think your idea of "torment" typically implies injustice on the part of the tormentor.

    Is he morally obligated to save people? I don't think it's clear that he's obligated to do anything on our behalf. The fact that he's acted on our behalf for our benefit without being obligated to do so is pretty generous on his part, don't you think?
     
  15. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    +200
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    That's rather a misleading statement. The Jews are for Jesus to come in. Your statement sounds as if the Jews can be a replacement of Jesus.

    Why don't you just accept the more accurate statement that the Jews are not a replacement of Jesus but a necessity for Jesus to be born.

    That remains your own misunderstanding. Whoever separated from God is in torment automatically.

    Again, it remains your own POV that Jesus is not obligated to save His sheep. To me, if all Jesus died for is for His sheep it's then pointless to regard Him as no obligation to save His sheep. The two don't seem to be right to put together.

    John 10:11 (NIV2011)
    11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (added) But I don't have any obligation to save my sheep.


    What's that?!

    In contrary:
    John 10:12 (NIV2011)
    12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.

    Rather what's said here is that the hired hand is not obligated to save the sheep.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  16. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

    +1,103
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    No, you're the one saying that the Canaanites had to die so Jesus could come and save us. Therefore, the death of the Canaanites was necessary for our salvation. There's nothing misleading about this - it's a consequence of what you've stated. If it looks wrong, which it is, then it's your belief that is incorrect as this is the conclusion that seems to follow.

    On your view it seems that the Canaanites had to die for our salvation just as Jesus had to die for our salvation. Couldn't have gotten here without all of their deaths, right?

    Well, it's a distinction I will stick with because your use of the word "torment" is more ambiguous.

    You're missing the point. God was not obligated to save anyone at all. He was not obligated to come die for people in the first place. Do you think God was morally obligated to save people? We agree he has, so don't avoid the question - was he obligated to do so - prior to his actually doing so? In other words, would it have been a moral failure on God's part to not-save anyone at all - to not send Jesus in the first place?
     
  17. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    +5,460
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    Ah, yes. I remember that story arc.

    Picard, the crew, and Hugh didn't know what would happened if he had spared the Borg. And despite Data's projections, we don't know if it would have worked. Given that and the ideals of the Federation, I can see why Picard didn't do it. I wanted him to do it, even more so after I saw the later episodes.

    Then again, I don't consider non-human life in a space opera to be equivalent to human life. I consider it morally equal to animal life. But I frown upon driving entire species to extinction.

    In terms of the objective lessons that Star Trek teaches though, they're all equivalent and to be relatable to how to treat each other. Let's say for instance that a certain country developed Borg-like technology, and they were assimilating nations left and right unless something similar stopped them. I think you would have to stop them. Destroy the hostile cyber-components to preserve humanity. I don't consider that genocide strictly speaking, because it is the cybernetic hive mind you would be needing to destroy. If there were other people from that nation out there who had not been assimilated, I would not have them marked for death unless they were war criminals (think Unit 731 all over again as the origin point). Remember, we're talking about the Borg here, you cannot negotiate or reason with them. Break a nation of regular people hard enough, and you can negotiate and reason with them. The Borg is a special case because you cannot.

    That, and do you remember the episode where they encountered a secluded alien on a moon somewhere, who annihilated an entire race with a thought? And the regret he justifiably had?
     
  18. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

    +666
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I suppose it could help with population and disease control.

    Biblically, i think God used widespread death to address disobedience and the serving of other gods. Sort of like purification.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  19. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

    +685
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    No, it isn't, in my opinion.

    In the Old Testament, certainly Israelites waged war against governments and destroyed nations - but I don't think they ever were ordered to "cleanse" a people from the earth.

    Another thing you have to keep in mind is God is omniscient throughout all of time as we experience it - He knows what everyone is going to do, and can make more justified decisions in terms of who needs to be stopped and whose allowed to continue in their wickedness.

    God punished the Israelites with the Babylonian exile because it got so bad that the Israelites were sacrificing their children to pagan deities (Jeremiah 7:30-31).
    Considering that the Israelites were supposed to be a nation that was a light to the world in terms of it's morality, and were blessed with God's guidance to a much greater degree than other nations, we could assume it would only get worse eventually to the point of self-cannibalism without this intervention.


    On the topic of genocide,
    It also doesn't mean that people can't be convinced it's morally acceptable - all it takes is enough propaganda from the government / authority wanting to commit the genocide in terms of dehumanization of the group, portraying the group as "the enemy," "rallying around the flag" (join us or you aren't patriotic), and - at the very least - the illusion (or reality) of political pressure from the targets, for people to be duped into believing that it's their best interest - their rational interest - to try to murder an entire race of people.

    It's not like the Ottomans, the Nazis / Utasche, the Japanese, the Hutus, the VRS, etc. all one day woke up and had an insane bloodlust - no - they truly believed they were doing what was in their best interest for themselves and their families.

    It's why many Liberals are fearful of Trump, because there is a certain dehumanization and "rallying around the flag" when it comes to illegal immigrants / Muslim immigrants - although I personally don't see any suggestion of genocide, just a desire to hold onto power through an "us vs. them" mentality.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  20. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

    +685
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    It doesn't necessarily have to be Utilitarian - although that's one possible interpretation, assuming a modification to Utilitarianism to account for infinite pain and infinite gain.

    If someone barged into your house (you only live with your wife), and tried to forcibly sleep with your wife, you have a moral right to kill that person.
    You could make a Utilitarian argument that you should let your wife get raped under the premise that death of this individual would be an almost infinite loss of pleasure in comparison to the harm of a rape.
    But you would say that this is disgusting.
    Rather, you could say the self-defense of your wife is an intrinsic good.

    The Jews as a nation were not only necessary to bring forth the Messiah, they were necessary for the creation of the Old Testament in terms of living examples of people following God, something required for the Church's Catholicity from square one (to provide examples of how to follow God's Will and to eliminate dissenting teachings from what Christ and the Apostles wanted to teach), and the prevention of Salvation and prevention of a means used for Salvation would be something intrinsically immoral - and God, being omniscient, made the most moral calculations possible in order to allow the Jews to bring forth the Messiah, knowing all other possible outcomes.

    God has no restraint, but He is goodness and is justice in of Himself. To be just and be good is to follow God, knowingly or not. Goodness isn't something defined as just a rule by God, nor is justice - but rather, it is God.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
Loading...