Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

[Pavel Mosko]

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

There are a few occasions when God has done some things that look like genocide. The flood being the best example. I think there are some rare extreme occasions that warrant it.

But I will add, some things deemed genocide are not. Many atheists cite the Israelites conquering the Holy land as genocide, but I would differ on that; because the Canaanites had fair warning of the Hebrews coming and the opportunity to flee.

But for those that did stay and get killed it would fit what I said about an extreme rare occasion. There are a number of passages in the Bible that suggest those people were corrupt and "needed killin" (If they were left in the land they would corrupt the Israelites and that would be bad for God's overall plan to use Israel as a vehicle to bring salvation to the World).

 

[Neogaia777]

LOL. Speculate we shall.
The short answer to the question is Yes. God absolutely knew that Saul was not going to carry out His orders or fully obey Him at the time. This passage demonstrates how foolish it was for the Israelites to demand a king like the other nations (1 Samuel 8). The purpose of allowing the Israelites to settle for imperfect people as their king was to show how the nation of Israel and the world how much they need God as their King. In a way, God was dealing with the nation of Israel in a similar way you would deal with a stubborn teenager. You open up the "school of hard knox". If they weren't going to learn the easy way by trusting in the Lord and observing the wickedness of the other kings, they will learn the hard way from their own mistakes.

I edited my post that you quoted and added a little more... As to why it seems like God (in and of the OT) did not know some things, ect...?

And while we know that God does not lie, can He ever be just a little bit deceptive towards us in any way, ever...? Cause He would have to be being just a little bit deceptive if He knew everything or was, or is, or always 100% fully omniscient, and has always been from the beginning and such, ect... Either He was being a little bit deceptive about his true feelings and/or thoughts, maybe even "ways", with us, in the OT, or He was not 100% completely omniscient...

And it's gotta be one or the other, cause there is no "middle ground" in this basically...

But then we have to ask, why is that? in any way or either way...?

God Bless!

 

[Rubiks]

No.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am trying to allude to God's decision to commit genocide in the OT here...? Right or wrong, ect...? Justified or not, ect...?

God Bless!

God decided as creator constantly, through the people in constant unrepentant sin, that it was better to cease giving them children. One might think it was better for all of them to become sterile by the absence of God giving them children. I do not know why this was not done. It did not matter in regards to their skin colour or that they were, maybe, all the same race. They were sacrificing their children to the fire and a false god. They would not repent with the available preachers, like in Noah's day, and occupied good land God owned and God wanted to give to his Hebrew children.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Biblically, the basis was to protect and preserve the nation of Israel from Idolatry so that the prophesy of the Messiah and the promises made though the covenant of David and Abraham would be fulfilled.

So the ends justify the means? Do you think God is the Great Utilitarian?

What are the consequences of the logic here? Are you saying that God had to kill people in the OT in order to bring about salvation through Jesus? Wouldn't this mean that their sacrifice was necessary for salvation? Wouldn't this mean that Jesus' self-sacrifice is diluted in with the necessary sacrifices of people in the OT?

 

[eleos1954]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?

I'm a fan of Star Trek TNG, and in one of the episodes, and even in a perfect Star Trek world, or even as advanced as that society was or is, in one episode "I, Borg" they come up with a plan to genocide the Borg, but later decide not to do it, (or Picard doesn't go through with it, in the end)...

But in a later episode, when they (starfleet) are having some further problems later on with the Borg, Picard is pretty severely chastised by and admiral for his decision, and told Him he was not here to wrestle with his conscience, and if he has any further opportunities like this or the one he had in the future, that he was under orders to take full advantage of it, and even said to Picard, "Is that understood?"...

Then Picard talks with Riker about it, and talks about how he had the chance to rid the federation of a mortal threat, but he did not do it... Then Riker said he did the moral thing, and Picard says something very interesting, he says that "It may turn out that the moral thing to do, was not the right thing to do..."

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

Even in an advanced Star Trek world/reality, they ran into a circumstance or whatever, where it very well might have been very right, and fully justifiable (genocide of another people or race)...

Comments...?

God Bless!

As far as man committing genocide ... no .. not ever

God committing genocide ... yes ... that is killing a large group of people ... but He does not do this in regard to race .... He does this in regard to totally corrupt humans across the spectrum in which He knows there will be no change. Only God knows the hearts of man (mankind)

Genesis 6

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.

Evil all the time ... this is how it will be in the end times and is when He will return.

 

[_Dave_]

Wouldn't this mean that their sacrifice was necessary for salvation?

Only tangentially. The real reason these people had to go is not because of their sin, but because of their corrupted bloodline. Like the flood, God needed to remove from the earth those whose genetics were corrupted by the Gen. 6 non-humans.

Remember when Joshua and Caleb came back and reported that there were giants in the land? That means that the land that was going to eventually bring forth the Savior had become populated by genetically corrupted people again. God didn't want his chosen people intermingling genetically with the corrupted ones. So, they had to be wiped out.

Incidentally, if you wonder why there is so much animosity in the Middle East, consider that it is because Israel failed to completely wipe out every single one of whom God told them to. Israel is continuing to pay the price to this day for their disobedience more than 3,000 years ago.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?

I'm a fan of Star Trek TNG, and in one of the episodes, and even in a perfect Star Trek world, or even as advanced as that society was or is, in one episode "I, Borg" they come up with a plan to genocide the Borg, but later decide not to do it, (or Picard doesn't go through with it, in the end)...

But in a later episode, when they (starfleet) are having some further problems later on with the Borg, Picard is pretty severely chastised by and admiral for his decision, and told Him he was not here to wrestle with his conscience, and if he has any further opportunities like this or the one he had in the future, that he was under orders to take full advantage of it, and even said to Picard, "Is that understood?"...

Then Picard talks with Riker about it, and talks about how he had the chance to rid the federation of a mortal threat, but he did not do it... Then Riker said he did the moral thing, and Picard says something very interesting, he says that "It may turn out that the moral thing to do, was not the right thing to do..."

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

Even in an advanced Star Trek world/reality, they ran into a circumstance or whatever, where it very well might have been very right, and fully justifiable (genocide of another people or race)...

Comments...?

God Bless!

My understanding of genocide is the elimination of a particular ethnic group in order to make room for another ethnic group. This is what man does. God on the other hand, does NOT commit genocide rather He lays judgment on those who reject and disobey Him. For example, the Canaanites were a wicked, idolatrous people who descended from Noah’s grandson Canaan. They were cursed because of Canaan and his father’s sin against Noah. This type of judgment is justified for God but not for man.
Blessings

 

[Danayah]

The Canaanites were by the action of their forefathers cursed and destined to be rooted out. Several races in the Bible God has declared cursed in some kinda way like this based on their actions or inaction... Ammonites and Moabites, Edomites, Gog and Magog... I'm sure there's many more. ( they curses may have all not been death by war but... U get the point)

So yes, Genocide is right when ordained by God, according to his timing and judgement.

 

[Artra]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?

I'm a fan of Star Trek TNG, and in one of the episodes, and even in a perfect Star Trek world, or even as advanced as that society was or is, in one episode "I, Borg" they come up with a plan to genocide the Borg, but later decide not to do it, (or Picard doesn't go through with it, in the end)...

But in a later episode, when they (starfleet) are having some further problems later on with the Borg, Picard is pretty severely chastised by and admiral for his decision, and told Him he was not here to wrestle with his conscience, and if he has any further opportunities like this or the one he had in the future, that he was under orders to take full advantage of it, and even said to Picard, "Is that understood?"...

Then Picard talks with Riker about it, and talks about how he had the chance to rid the federation of a mortal threat, but he did not do it... Then Riker said he did the moral thing, and Picard says something very interesting, he says that "It may turn out that the moral thing to do, was not the right thing to do..."

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

Even in an advanced Star Trek world/reality, they ran into a circumstance or whatever, where it very well might have been very right, and fully justifiable (genocide of another people or race)...

Comments...?

God Bless!

You have no justifiable reason to murder anyone, let alone commit genocide. Jesus didn't lift a finger against those trying to crucify Him. Please don't entertain thoughts like that in your heart.

I think of it this way: even if you are commiting self-defense, you are still hurting God's creation. God doesn't want His creations to get hurt, but that's what He has to contend with now, and that makes Him angry. If you are deliberating on whether or not genocide is ever right, you are deliberating on if the mass destruction of God's creation is ever right. Only God can decide when a life needs to cease.

You can contest me if you feel I'm wrong though.

 

[devin553344]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?

I'm a fan of Star Trek TNG, and in one of the episodes, and even in a perfect Star Trek world, or even as advanced as that society was or is, in one episode "I, Borg" they come up with a plan to genocide the Borg, but later decide not to do it, (or Picard doesn't go through with it, in the end)...

But in a later episode, when they (starfleet) are having some further problems later on with the Borg, Picard is pretty severely chastised by and admiral for his decision, and told Him he was not here to wrestle with his conscience, and if he has any further opportunities like this or the one he had in the future, that he was under orders to take full advantage of it, and even said to Picard, "Is that understood?"...

Then Picard talks with Riker about it, and talks about how he had the chance to rid the federation of a mortal threat, but he did not do it... Then Riker said he did the moral thing, and Picard says something very interesting, he says that "It may turn out that the moral thing to do, was not the right thing to do..."

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

Even in an advanced Star Trek world/reality, they ran into a circumstance or whatever, where it very well might have been very right, and fully justifiable (genocide of another people or race)...

Comments...?

God Bless!

If you're an asteroid impacting the earth, or a global warming epidemic ;(, the plague or other natural disaster then yes genocide is OK. But if you have a choice like a living creature then probably is not OK: John 8:7

 

[Foxfyre]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?

I'm a fan of Star Trek TNG, and in one of the episodes, and even in a perfect Star Trek world, or even as advanced as that society was or is, in one episode "I, Borg" they come up with a plan to genocide the Borg, but later decide not to do it, (or Picard doesn't go through with it, in the end)...

But in a later episode, when they (starfleet) are having some further problems later on with the Borg, Picard is pretty severely chastised by and admiral for his decision, and told Him he was not here to wrestle with his conscience, and if he has any further opportunities like this or the one he had in the future, that he was under orders to take full advantage of it, and even said to Picard, "Is that understood?"...

Then Picard talks with Riker about it, and talks about how he had the chance to rid the federation of a mortal threat, but he did not do it... Then Riker said he did the moral thing, and Picard says something very interesting, he says that "It may turn out that the moral thing to do, was not the right thing to do..."

So, is genocide ever justifiable...? And if so, when or under what conditions or circumstances or whatever is it so...?

Even in an advanced Star Trek world/reality, they ran into a circumstance or whatever, where it very well might have been very right, and fully justifiable (genocide of another people or race)...

Comments...?

God Bless!

Now that is a question I honestly have never wrestled with except in the context of Old Testament history. In I Samuel 15, the Scriptures report--I suspect maybe one that lost something in context over time--that God ordered the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites, men, women, children, livestock, all. I was teaching a class one time shortly after all the terrorist attacks on the Cole followed by other incidents culminating in 9/11. One of my students--an elderly veterinarian--quipped see? If the Israelites had done what God ordered, we wouldn't be having these problems now.

Well of course that was meant to be dark humor, but it sort of fits with that Star Trek episode, doesn't it.

I sometimes have given the Kiersey/Bates temperament type test to groups I work with and one of the questions: "Is it better to be ruthless or merciless?" To the average normal person, neither option is acceptable. But looking at things in the greater concept, the outcome, the ultimate consequence, it was certainly better for both the Allies and the Axis when the Allies chose not to pull their punches and were ruthless in exerting maximum force on the enemy to bring about unconditional surrender even though many innocent died or were terribly injured in the process.

Of course genocide was not part of that intention or equation. But let's ask ourselves rhetorically: if we could bring about world peace and forever end the most barbaric and merciless human conflict by extinguishing a certain population. . . would we make that call?

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

Since we do not see all sides of a situation, I would have to say Genocide is not a good thing in the eyes of God. Killing other than a last resort when protecting yourself would not also be a good idea. However God has made the decision to do so and told man to carry out the order.

Duet 20:16 “Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 “But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18 so that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God.

 

[sea5763]

In the new covenant under Jesus, as Christians, we are NEVER commanded to commit genocide. These are some of the reasons stated in the Old Testament by God as to why He ordered it. Most of the time, God waits until Judgment Day to punish people. However, in the Old Testament, you will notice that God often brought surrounding armies to punish Israel as well. Genocide makes me very uncomfortable too. It's like revenge in that only God should be executing it. Ultimately though, at Judgment Day, not everyone is going to go to Heaven, and that is something that many will find horrifying as well. God is love, but because He is holy He is also justice. I looked up the verses about genocide online and these ones are the same as I remember as when I read the Bible. In the verses about genocide God directly explains why. It also says that God waited for four generations for their iniquity to have become complete.

1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Luke 18:7
7And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Deuteronomy 9:1-5

Not Because of Righteousness

1“Hear, O Israel: you are to cross over the Jordan today, to go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified up to heaven, 2a people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you have heard it said, ‘Who can stand before the sons of Anak?’ 3Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the LORD your God. He will destroy them and subdue them before you. So you shall drive them out and make them perish quickly, as the LORD has promised you.

4“Do not say in your heart, after the LORD your God has thrust them out before you, ‘It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,’ whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you. 5Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.


Deuteronomy 20:16-18

16But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17but you shall devote them to complete destruction,a the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, 18that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.


Genesis 15:12-16

12As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. 13Then the LORDsaid to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”



Amos 6:8

8The Lord GOD has sworn by himself, declares the LORD, the God of hosts:

“I abhor the pride of Jacob
and hate his strongholds,
and I will deliver up the city and all that is in it.”


and later
Amos 6:14
14“For behold, I will raise up against you a nation,
O house of Israel,” declares the LORD, the God of hosts;
“and they shall oppress you from Lebo-hamath
to the Brook of the Arabah.”

 

[Macchiato]

No of course not. never is and never will be. Its just wrong.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Of course genocide was not part of that intention or equation. But let's ask ourselves rhetorically: if we could bring about world peace and forever end the most barbaric and merciless human conflict by extinguishing a certain population. . . would we make that call?

Sounds like the question of Omelas.

The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas - Wikipedia

http://www.mccc.edu/pdf/eng102/Week 9/Text_LeGuin Ursula_Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.pdf

 

[1213]

Is genocide ever right or justifiable...?

For most of us it unfathomable that genocide would ever be right or correct or the right thing to do, but is it ever...?...

Genocide means murder, and murder is never right. Death penalty is not same and it is different thing.

 

[hedrick]

Sounds like the question of Omelas.

The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas - Wikipedia

http://www.mccc.edu/pdf/eng102/Week 9/Text_LeGuin Ursula_Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.pdf

Yes. This is a very disturbing story, isn't it?

It's hard to see how genocide would ever be justified. There might be some weird situation where the only way to protect an innocent people is to do something that will kill all of another, but that wouldn't quite be genocide, as killing everyone wouldn't be the goal of the action, even if was a likely result. But that seems more hypothetical than real.

The Borg are an interesting example. The problem there is that they aren't individuals, but a hive mind. So the idea of innocent members of the population may be hard to apply. But even there, Seven of Nine ended up becoming a responsible individual. (However Seven of Nine was rescued after the time when genocide was proposed.)

A more ethically difficult situation was the encounter of Capt. Archer with the Valakians. He didn't exactly kill them, but he left them to die in order not to interfere with the development of another species on their planet. This was supposed to have been the right decision, but I'm not so sure.

And no, I don't think genocide was justified in the OT either. Fortunately the episodes occur during periods when there are questions about historicity. But even if it didn't happen, the people from which the legends came thought it was justified, and presumably so did the final editor.

 

[gordonhooker]

My response to the question would be 'NO!', as a Christian I try to live as Jesus taught us to live. The Gospel reading for this Sunday (RCL) Luke 6:27-38 is clear about loving our enemies in my humble opinion.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sounds like the question of Omelas.

The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas - Wikipedia

http://www.mccc.edu/pdf/eng102/Week 9/Text_LeGuin Ursula_Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.pdf

In a way I agree and in Le Guin's narrative, the people could not morally support an unacceptable choice and walked away.

And so did Captain Picard in that Star Trek episode.

But the question remains. If you were Picard and had orders to destroy an entire civilization that demonstrated no redeeming qualities whatsoever and brought misery, torture, death, and destruction to all in its path, could you do it?

He didn't. But he knew his morally right choice could also result in the death and destruction of millions. So was it the moral choice? I'm sure the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was the same kind of heart withering, gut wrenching, totally terrible choice.